AMD Radeon HD 6870 and HD 6850 confirmed to be launched on 22.10.2010

[Solus Corvus]

This was August, nothing was confirmed about the renaming.

http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/1278/roadmap.jpg

I was referring to this chart obviously. Which suggest Cayman as a 5870 series. Not bart xt as your trying to make it out to be.

Read the thread again if you don't remember. That chart came out AFTER your comment. Several pages after, in fact. And you were even quoting another poster's comment about BARTS.

[kuroikenshi]

Read the thread again if you don't remember. That chart came out AFTER your comment. Several pages after, in fact. And you were even quoting another poster's comment about BARTS.

tajoh111 loves thread bashing.

period

[tajoh111]

Read the thread again if you don't remember. That chart came out AFTER your comment. Several pages after, in fact. And you were even quoting another poster's comment about BARTS.

How can the chart come after my comment if I quoted it. The rename shifting was more or less confirmed late September.

That earlier post was in late august, no one had any idea barts xt was going to be shift into a 6870.

[Solus Corvus]

tajoh111 loves thread bashing.

period

Dude, you aren't helping. From the random inflammatory posts to the misunderstanding of unrelated technologies, please just stop.

How can the chart come after my comment if I quoted it. The rename shifting was more or less confirmed late September.

I linked two comments. The one I included a quote from was one that was posted a long time before that chart was out. The second link was just to back up your continued complaining about poor price/performance.

Edit:

That earlier post was in late august, no one had any idea barts xt was going to be shift into a 6870.

Yes they did. Read the thread if you are in doubt.

[kadozer]

Back pedaling = 3 more pages of fun times

Admittance = 1 post

[zerazax]

I like fun times /popcorn

Well actually 6870 is a 5830 with double the ROPs + better ILP + better Tessellator + HDMI 1.4

It is not a new architecture, it’s a Cypress refresh but AMD felt that it should name it 6000 series.

Well actually the GT200 is just G92 with double the ROPS + double the buswidth + some other features.

It's not a new architecture, it's a G92 refresh but Nvidia felt that it should name it 200 series. (Oh wait, Nvidia did actaully make G92 the 200 series )

Lemme try again...

Well actually Fermi is just GT200 shrunk with rearranged ROPS + GDDR5 + better Tesselator + some CUDA changes.

It's not a new architecture, it's a GT200 refresh but Nvidiaf elt that it should name it 400 series.

See what we did there?

Everything since unified shader architecture became the norm is just a "refresh" of before, and frankly, this is as close to an architecture change for ATI as we've seen since R600

[tajoh111]

Dude, you aren't helping. From the random inflammatory posts to the misunderstanding of unrelated technologies, please just stop.


I linked two comments. The one I included a quote from was one that was posted a long time before that chart was out. The second link was just to back up your continued complaining about poor price/performance.

Edit:

Yes they did. Read the thread if you are in doubt.

I don't see it (the renaming confirmation) in august at all and honestly, if your saying the renaming was confirmed earlier than that chart and that chart is more recent, then how come that chart says a 6870 is a Cayman part. If the name shifting was confirmed, wouldn't that chart show Bart and 6870 together, rather than Cayman and 6870 together, in addition to the 6770 part missing entirely.

I really didn't start believing the renaming was going to happen until LordECC started mentioning it; which I even mention when I criticized AMD for this renaming practice and this came much later.

Fudzilla typically jumps the gun way too early and he even said barts was going to replace the 58xx series and he said this at the end of September.

http://www.fudzilla.com/graphics/ite...ce-5800-series

The reshifting was only confirmed late September or early October, Heck until we got the boxes it wasn't really even confirmed because alot of people still had faith AMD wasn't going to do the name shifting.

Solas, to win this argument you need to do two things. Confirm that most people knew about the Barts xt reshifting to a 68xx series in August and in addition, show I believed this reshifting during this time as well. Not speculation even, but I entirely believed.

[Pillo-kun]

I dont understand why people say its new either.

[RPGWiZaRD]

Please take your arguing (tajoh & solus) to PM and spare us from the already "90%-crap posts and 10% useful posts" thread.

[Solus Corvus]

Solas, to win this argument you need to do two things. Confirm that most people knew about the Barts xt reshifting to a 68xx series in August and in addition, show I believed this reshifting during this time as well. Not speculation even, but I entirely believed.

I'm not trying to "win". I just want you to think twice before predicting the absolute worst outcome based on little evidence whatsoever.

You said that this would be the most expensive generation of cards ever. It turns out that probably isn't true. We are getting more performance + some extra features/fixes for the same price.

Why don't you explain what you were hoping from this generation besides a better price/performance ratio and more features. I don't know what else you would expect.

Please take your arguing (tajoh & solus) to PM and spare us from the already "90%-crap posts and 10% useful posts" thread.

Worried about the SNR?

[tajoh111]

I'm not trying to "win". I just want you to think twice before predicting the absolute worst outcome based on little evidence whatsoever.

You said that this would be the most expensive generation of cards ever. It turns out that probably isn't true. We are getting more performance + some extra features/fixes for the same price.

Why don't you explain what you were hoping from this generation besides a better price/performance ratio and more features. I don't know what else you would expect.


Worried about the SNR?

I honestly read it so many times and Cayman is the only thing really being mentioned in August really and performance scores of it and it is still being referred to a 6870.

So I don't think you can prove the renaming and reshifting of cayman and bart xt was known in late august...

I think you should really look of value in the context of how much of a jump in value occurred in prior generations. Its kind of ok, but its not earth shattering and actually quite disappointing if you compare it to the last few. Some extra performance for the same price wasn't 10%, it was 50% or more. As a result, I can't help but feel this generation is about ballooning up AMD margins rather than giving extra value to the consumer.

I think I am being more realistic than anything. If we compared value to the last generation, I don't know how people can be really excited this generation beside atleast for me, the ultra high end parts.

It is starting to look like the most expensive, what should have been a 6770 is being priced in the 250 range(which is a tough sell, hence the naming shift). Bart xt should not be considered the successor to 5870, because they do not beat them in performance.

Considering scalping is likely to occur because AMD said they plan to produce chips in the 100,000's(CEO said it) before the end of this quarter(compared to last gen or 6xxx where they produced 2 million cards, where cards were heavily scalped), it could be worse than the last generation for scalping combined with the naming shift, we might get incredible scalping for even barts. Cayman will definitely hit 500+ dollars especially after scalping(perhaps 600 if we are unlucky). And with prices like that for single chips, how expensive is Antilles going to be?

Remember pricing for the 5850? How it started off low in retailers and jumped sky high? If the retail price of the 6870 is 250 which is very similar to the 5850 starting price, don't you think for a card that is 33% smaller than the 5850, has a little bit better performance for near 300 dollars would not be the greatest value for a next gen part?

I think I am being reasonable with my arguments here.

My expectation for this generation was barts to not adopt the 68xx moniker or more specifically the 6870 and 6850 moniker because it implies better performance. Bart xt as a 6830(which makes alot more sense since they might have similar pricing) is alot better and anything else relegated to the 67xx series.

Additionally I wish they would have kept bart and its entire line under 200 dollars. It might be a bigger chip but money can still be made off of a 200 dollar 230mm chip as Nvidia initial pricing of the gtx 460 has shown.

I also wish they produced bigger quantities(unless the CEO is lying), so we would not get price scalped.

Everythings is just going to get more expensive this generation and it going to really reduce the value we should be getting out a next gen part. Part of it is AMD having no competition and getting greedier and retailers scalping.

What disappoint me this generation is Nvidia has no real response and pricing of these cards will remain pretty high and combined with scalping because of low quanities, we lose any value for buying this generation.

This move from AMD cashing in on crappy competition to make ridiculous money, honestly is kind of good for us in the short run(very little good), is really bad for alot of people in the long run. I don't want NV to fold, nor its partners. Bad competition has put BFG out of business and likely, alot of people that work at Nvidia will lose their job. I don't want Nvidia to die. I already think for the the 5xxx series and the gtx 4xx series provide enough power for this generation except maybe for a few eyefinity jobs. Putting out a generation that although performs better than the last generation really doesn't do beside screw NVidia and have to sell products at a loss, while AMD makes tremendous profits(where we pay more than we should). I hate it when any company has to sell at a loss because companies get beat up really bad as AMD past has shown.

[spursindonesia]

they had the same advantage with evergreen and didnt go for perf/$. maybe they will this time, one can only hope.

They do have cost leadership, clearly so with this new gen chips. But whether they have the sufficient supply to satisfy the demand if they lowered the price, we would never know, will we ? We know aiming for greater market share is very important in this bussiness and profit is the result of margin times units sold, but if the supply is constrained, they would be FOOLISH not to maximize profit out of limited goods sold in the first place, it ain't no charity.

But then again, bart xt is more or less 25% faster clocked than a 5850, which makes up for most of the difference. I doubt the 6970 will have significantly faster clocks because of its size(900mhz max) vs cypress(850). Basically everything has to come from core improvements and added components.

Clocks appear to match polygon counts on both cards(5850 and 6870).

Gotta admit, this is turning into a decent, quite good indeed, yet not all that great as i expected. Well, that's the risk being an optimist, but i think this is very, very FAR from a failure. Still have to wait for official pricing when NDA's lifted, but credible source is telling me that the SEP for these babies are US$ 239 for Bart XT and US$ 179 for Bart Pro. At those prices, i think it will be popular cards in the market.

Regarding the mArch, the shader seems mostly untouched, only uncore got a bit of touches, especially the tesselator with its new buffering and texturing with better algorithm. There are hints from people that know their bussiness regarding shader implementation in NI family, they suspect that while Bart's shader will stay 5D, there will be NI chip that implement 4D shader arrangement, Cayman most likely, but it's still just speculation (out of good base though).

Bro, cheer up a little and be a bit more optimistic regarding AMD, won't do you no harm.

[ripken204]

AMD has turned us against each other
stop arguing about what could be and just wait a few more days to find out what is

[Manicdan]

AMD has turned us against each other
stop arguing about what could be and just wait a few more days to find out what is

dude i need a 6870 for under 200$
ive killed for less, lol

[~CS~]

I honestly read it so many times and Cayman is the only thing really being mentioned in August really and performance scores of it and it is still being referred to a 6870.

So I don't think you can prove the renaming and reshifting of cayman and bart xt was known in late august...

I think you should really look of value in the context of how much of a jump in value occurred in prior generations. Its kind of ok, but its not earth shattering and actually quite disappointing if you compare it to the last few. Some extra performance for the same price wasn't 10%, it was 50% or more.

I think I am being more realistic than anything. If we compared value to the last generation, I don't know how people can be really excited this generation beside atleast for me, the ultra high end parts.

It is starting to look like the most expensive, what should have been a 6770 is being priced in the 250 range(which is a tough sell, hence the naming shift). Bart xt should not be considered the successor to 5870, because they do not beat them in performance.

Considering scalping is likely to occur because AMD said they plan to produce chips in the 100,000's(CEO said it) before the end of this quarter(compared to last gen or 6xxx where they produced 2 million cards, where cards were heavily scalped), it could be worse than the last generation for scalping combined with the naming shift, we might get incredible scalping for even barts. Cayman will definitely hit 500+ dollars especially after scalping(perhaps 600 if we are unlucky). And with prices like that for single chips, how expensive is Antilles going to be?

Remember pricing for the 5850? How it started off low in retailers and jumped sky high? If the retail price of the 6870 is 250 which is very similar to the 5850 starting price, don't you think for a card that is 33% smaller than the 5850, has a little bit better performance for near 300 dollars would not be the greatest value for a next gen part?

I think I am being reasonable with my arguments here.

My expectation for this generation was barts to not adopt the 68xx moniker or more specifically the 6870 and 6850 moniker because it implies better performance. Bart xt as a 6830(which makes alot more sense since they might have similar pricing) is alot better and anything else relegated to the 67xx series.

Additionally I wish they would have kept bart and its entire line under 200 dollars. It might be a bigger chip but money can still be made off of a 200 dollar 230mm chip as Nvidia initial pricing of the gtx 460 has shown.

I also wish they produced bigger quantities(unless the CEO is lying), so we would not get price scalped.

Everythings is just going to get more expensive this generation and it going to really reduce the value we should be getting out a next gen part. Part of it is AMD having no competition and getting greedier and scalping.

What disappoint me this generation is Nvidia has no real response and pricing of these cards will remain pretty high and combined with scalping because of low quanities, we lose any value for buying this generation.

This move from AMD cashing in on crappy competition to make ridiculous money, honestly is kind of good for us in the short run(very little good), is really bad for alot of people in the long run. I don't want NV to fold, nor its partners. Bad competition has put BFG out of business and likely, alot of people that work at Nvidia will lose their job. I don't want Nvidia to die. I already think for the the 5xxx series and the gtx 4xx series provide enough power for this generation except maybe for a few eyefinity jobs. Putting out a generation that although performs better than the last generation really doesn't do beside screw NVidia and have to sell products at a loss, while AMD makes tremendous profits(where we pay more than we should). I hate it when any company has to sell at a loss because companies get beat up really bad as AMD past has shown.

Price/performance jump that are associated with generations mainly occur because of semiconductor technology progress it also heavily relies on competition ,no semiconductor technology progress was made since the last generation,AMD is still on 40nm.The cards are priced somewhat competitively,but ultimately market will dictate the pricing shortly after launch when demand settles.

I don't understand why people think AMD should be giving away these chips just because they are smaller,consumer is not buying silicone they are buying performance last I checked. More so they need margins,last quarter they made 1mil,which is pathetic.


I don't believe we will get scalped, doubt we will see the same demand that occurred when 5xxx launched,there is competition in the market now,especially in the price bracket.And more importantly people that wanted DX11 already have it,nothing overly significant sets apart 6xxx series from competition like the last time.


Nvidias is not going anywhere ,they have a lot of money to survive,after all AMD has been bleeding money for how long now ,and they are still here.

[ripken204]

dude i need a 6870 for under 200$
ive killed for less, lol

i will probably get a 6870 as well, but based on current prices posted on websites $200 wont be happening

[Solus Corvus]

[snip]

You can judge the new generation however you want. But you aren't being that realistic, from my perspective.

We all knew that this generation wasn't going to as big of a leap as we hoped after TSMC canceled 32nm. NI being designed for 32nm and then having to be reworked in short order to fit on 40nm - things could have been worse, IMO. Who knows what the pricing\naming structure would have been like if 32nm wasn't canceled.

If you look at it from the perspective of all the other products we can get now versus their prices then the rumored price/performance of these new parts isn't bad. It's an improvement over last generation. Even if it isn't as big of an improvement that we, perhaps unrealistically, had expected. If the company prices products commensurate with market pressures and fabrication costs then what is wrong, the company or your expectations?

As for the naming structure, as I have said before, I don't like it. For the past few generations ATI's top single chip was *870 and it should have stayed that way, IMO.

Nvidia will be fine. They can lean on their workstation and HPC cards just like AMD is leaning on its graphics division. If Nvidia is for a time not the dominant discreet GPU maker it could ultimately lead to a more competitive marketplace. Maybe not in this generation, but the more people that are willing to switch between AMD and Nvidia when either releases a good product means that they both have to fight harder for our money. That's better then in the recent past when most wouldn't look twice at a non-Nvidia card.

[Hey Zeus]

HIS HD 6870 On Amazon

http://www.amazon.com/HIS-Eyefinity-...7539565&sr=1-1

[Mechanical Man]

I...

Did it ever occur to you, that it has been assumption of press that Cayman would be named as 68x0. Not official info. The burden is on you to show any official info showing Cayman as 68x0 part. As all official I have seen is that it has always been 69x0. It cant be rename or reshift or what ever u call it if it was not officially something before.

[spursindonesia]

LOL, this is epic, gotta respond anyway, can't help it.

I honestly read it so many times and Cayman is the only thing really being mentioned in August really and performance scores of it and it is still being referred to a 6870.

So I don't think you can prove the renaming and reshifting of cayman and bart xt was known in late august...

This is a personal battle, so i won't take part. But i do know that you're being pessimistic regarding AMD's good intention of adding value to their costumers, right ? OK, move on.

I think you should really look of value in the context of how much of a jump in value occurred in prior generations. Its kind of ok, but its not earth shattering and actually quite disappointing if you compare it to the last few. Some extra performance for the same price wasn't 10%, it was 50% or more. As a result, I can't help but feel this generation is about ballooning up AMD margins rather than giving extra value to the consumer.

In this, we will have to wait for the complete review, won't we ? Fact, this new gen chips is still built on TSMC's 40 nm process, die size does get smaller, but AMD's graphic isn't exactly raking in profits, so ? We'll see what kinda verdict that reviewers gonna put on these babies, somehow with the leaked US$ 239 & 179 tag prices, i think they will be quite positive. Value pof a product is always calculated factoring what kinda value that competitor's offering. Now, if the card is slightly more expensive, yet performs much higher in percentage compared to the price difference, consuming less power, incorporating new features, aren't those giving more value to customers ? Regarding OCing room, we just have wait for more info, Bart XT has the same TDP of Cypress Pro, and the cooler of the reference board isn't bad either, there is some wiggle room, but indeed there's a concern regarding chip's clocking wall.

I think I am being more realistic than anything. If we compared value to the last generation, I don't know how people can be really excited this generation beside atleast for me, the ultra high end parts.

It is starting to look like the most expensive, what should have been a 6770 is being priced in the 250 range(which is a tough sell, hence the naming shift). Bart xt should not be considered the successor to 5870, because they do not beat them in performance.

No, being OVERLY pessimistic is more appropiate. I've admitted of being too optimistic sometime, but you're too much further on the opposite. If the SEP prices are true, that's already a great starter, considering the cards are the more expensive reference board designs. If the supply permits, we can expect more aggressive pricing movement from AMD's AIBs, since nVidia does have competitors in this segment & won't easily yield their fame & goodwill that GTX 460 series produced.

Considering the leaked presentation slide, it's quite clear that AMD build this chip as the sweetspot successor of RV 770, and compare it against HD 5850 of its own, and GF 104 derivatives from competitor. It clearly beat the competitors in absolute stock performance, with lower TDP and more features compared to its older brother. We have to see whether it will be a good OCer, but the leaked US$ 239 price shows that Bart XT will be priced lower than HD 5850 current market price, matching GTX 470 performance, if those aren't REASONABLY good for consumers, then what else would be ?

Considering scalping is likely to occur because AMD said they plan to produce chips in the 100,000's(CEO said it) before the end of this quarter(compared to last gen or 6xxx where they produced 2 million cards, where cards were heavily scalped), it could be worse than the last generation for scalping combined with the naming shift, we might get incredible scalping for even barts. Cayman will definitely hit 500+ dollars especially after scalping(perhaps 600 if we are unlucky). And with prices like that for single chips, how expensive is Antilles going to be?

We'll see how it unfolds. We hear you that "we might get incredible scalping for even barts", perhaps US$ 399 scalped price ?? I don't think your EXTREME scenario would happen, but to each on their own prediction, okay, move on.

Remember pricing for the 5850? How it started off low in retailers and jumped sky high? If the retail price of the 6870 is 250 which is very similar to the 5850 starting price, don't you think for a card that is 33% smaller than the 5850, has a little bit better performance for near 300 dollars would not be the greatest value for a next gen part?

I think I am being reasonable with my arguments here.

No, it was AMD's fault for not factoring TSMC's incompetence of supplying enough wafer for Evergreen generation, creating a short in supply that pushed the price structure upward, whether by MSRP increase or scalping. You make so much PESSIMIST assumption it's just mindboggling.

REASONABLE =! being totally pessimistic that's borderline annoying (Terrance annoying).

My expectation for this generation was barts to not adopt the 68xx moniker or more specifically the 6870 and 6850 moniker because it implies better performance. Bart xt as a 6830(which makes alot more sense since they might have similar pricing) is alot better and anything else relegated to the 67xx series.

You can expect whatever you want, the market will be the final judge of AMD's decision. I admit that this resegmenting, new naming allignment, is rather confusing & misleading, but your suggestion is even more confusing. Bart is still made with TSMC's 40 nm process, significantly bigger than Juniper, AMD decided that the chip is more appropiate (for their own good) in the new market segment, replacing HD 5850 & the inept HD 5830, rather than straightforward replacing Juniper, that's their discretion and from one perspective, quite a rightful & correct thing to do.

Additionally I wish they would have kept bart and its entire line under 200 dollars. It might be a bigger chip but money can still be made off of a 200 dollar 230mm chip as Nvidia initial pricing of the gtx 460 has shown.

And you now think that AMD's a charity not a company that's in corner, keep raking losses by quarters, and needs every penny they could get ? People can be naive but puhleezze ..... IT AIN'T NO CHARITY !

AMD has every FLEXIBILITY in pricing, much more so compared to nVidia with their own GF 104, but what incentive do they have to follow your price structure suggestion ? The minute nVidia decide to be more competitive by launching full fledged GF 104 at reasonable price, reducing the current GTX 460s price, and if supply outstripped demand, you think AMD will be stupid to allow the stockpile of unsold Barts mounting in their warehouse get unsold because of uncompetitive prices as you suggested ??

I also wish they produced bigger quantities(unless the CEO is lying), so we would not get price scalped.

Why do you think AMD would INTENTIONALLY choke the supply if they have COST LEADERSHIP over competitor ???? Do you know economics 1-2-3 ?

Everythings is just going to get more expensive this generation and it going to really reduce the value we should be getting out a next gen part. Part of it is AMD having no competition and getting greedier and scalping.

This still has to be proven, and while i do think AMD will focus more on optimising the profitability of their graphic division (since compute division is still in shambles), they're smart enough to realize not to destroy the goodwill that was built throughout the last 2 years and marketshare domination/leadership is very important for their longterm well being.

What disappoint me this generation is Nvidia has no real response and pricing of these cards will remain pretty high and combined with scalping because of low quanities, we lose any value for buying this generation.

Be optimistic fella, even i still has some optimism left for nVidia, releasing the full fledged GF 104 in sufficient quantity & competitive price is a must and seems imminent. Above that, well, we'll see whether they have the guts to release dual GF 104 card, atleast to maintain some dignity until the real response (if you want to call another monster chip as real response to Cayman) arrives in Q1 2011.

This move from AMD cashing in on crappy competition to make ridiculous money, honestly is kind of good for us in the short run(very little good), is really bad for alot of people in the long run. I don't want NV to fold, nor its partners. Bad competition has put BFG out of business and likely, alot of people that work at Nvidia will lose their job. I don't want Nvidia to die. I already think for the the 5xxx series and the gtx 4xx series provide enough power for this generation except maybe for a few eyefinity jobs. Putting out a generation that although performs better than the last generation really doesn't do beside screw NVidia and have to sell products at a loss, while AMD makes tremendous profits(where we pay more than we should). I hate it when any company has to sell at a loss because companies get beat up really bad as AMD past has shown.

This is quite a hilarity coming from you, LOL.

1. No, AMD's getting more profitable in the short run is rather bad for consumers, but GOOD for consumers longterm interest, since it will make AMD's stronger & healthier, more R&D money for future products.

2. LOL, NO, nVidia won't fold anytime near, nor for medium term (longterm, well, everything die in the end). nVidia's balance sheet is still much stronger than AMD, they still have quite a big budget for better products in the future, their engineers aren't imbecile, and they can learn from their mistakes. Leveraging their total dominance in professional market is good enough to shore them out of today's the storm, so i find your view is too darn PESSIMIST.

3. LOL, so you condemn AMD's effort to be more profitable while also trying to segment the market better & offer more value to consumers with more appropiate products ??? Have you condemn nVidia in the past for controlling 65% market share, dominant enough to shovel CUDA, PhysX, and their propietary craps down our throat ?? Did you condemn nVidia for releasing G80, while G71 was already dominant at that time & giving much more profit to nVidia compared to ATi at that time ??

You my friend, has so much flawed logic in your way of thinking, and too much PESSIMISM even NEGATIVISM toward AMD i start to think you're a hater already.

[Jowy Atreides]

If the NDA lifts on the 22nd, will we see 6970 reviews?

Have cards been sent out?

[Jowy Atreides]

Edit: double post.

Internets LOL

[kadozer]

To put it shortly, if one were to be genuinely interested in a product soon to be released (I know Iam) I think it would be normal to be more optimistic than negative.

[Solus Corvus]

I just want to see the price and performance of the top Cayman chip and Antilles. If Cayman really does have ~1920 shaders compared to Barts' 1120...

[tajoh111]

To put it shortly, if one were to be genuinely interested in a product soon to be released (I know Iam) I think it would be normal to be more optimistic than negative.

I am interested in the products(the higher ones anyway), I am just terrified of the pricing that will happen.

The pricing difference between the x770 series and the 5870 or I guess now cayman has been atleast double. The 4770 was like 90 dollars and the 5770 was 159 dollars. So if Bart xt is 250, I could see cayman being 500 + without scalping and considering the size rumored, this seems like a possibility. So what will antilles be priced like if their single chip parts are already 500.

I don't think very many people, atleast in the know and remember last generations scalping, are going to be optimistic. I think they are going to expect long last scalping until NV responds with something. I bet alot of you guys that are interested in this card are going to buy at the first reasonable price they can find because they don't want to pay crazy scalping prices like last generation. And that my friend is a pessimism alot of us share I can imagine considering NV competition right now.

Terrance was completely biased against AMD. I am being pessimistic for NV and AMD and will say a positive about both companies when in my eyes, they deserve it. e.g the gtx 460, which is a great card for the price and honestly quite the comeback from the dog of an architecture gf100 is. I am not being so pessimistic with Intel so much right now because beside high prices( I was incredibly pessimistic about larrabee because they lacked the experience and this turned out to be truer than I thought possible. I wasn't expecting a scrapped product), their products have have been the most consistently good but perhaps overpriced in alot of ways.

The only product I have really been optimistic about and it turned out to be a complete dud was gf100. It let me down so much considering it had so much potential and so much hype(I was thinking NV had kind of a flop before, no way would NV screw up it new next gen) and I was completely let down. After that I grew quite a bit more pessimistic on product launches.

I was probably one of the only people on this board to question, whether barts or the 6xxx in general was going to have 4d shaders(and barts has a 5d shader). Sometimes pessimism can help you see through hype and perhaps high expectations or rumors.