Pure-Sil Biocidal coolant

[iandh]

I like the biocide piece, but I don't understand what all the fuss is over electrical conductivity? I understand it's one way to measure purity, but what's in there causing the high reading? Is it something that is detrimental to the thermal performance in any way?

Has anyone measured thermal conductivity after being in the loop for a week straight, one month? Can you measure the difference between the purest water and your worst grocery store brand?

From what I understand there are only two properties that matter regarding thermal performance:

Volumetric Heat Capacity - Is the measurement of storage ability
Thermal Conductivity - Is the measurement of transferring heat

How does electrical conductivity relate to thermal performance, and why is it important or even measured?

Just curious why all the fuss on electrical conductivity...I plan to keep buying my horrid grocery store brand until someone convinces me otherwise..

The initial conductivity measurement determines the purity of the water, and the secondary measurement determines the ion content.

As for horrid grocery store water, it can be either superb, or awful. That's basically one of the services I offer with this product... I'm taking a calibrated purity test meter and ensuring that this water is of a good quality.

Typically distilled water is very pure, but I've gotten some VERY bad batches. I'd say less than 5% of distilled is what I'd consider poor quality. Most is very good.

I thought electrical conductivity mattered so you are less likely to zap your gear if you get a leak

It can, but in my case I'm only worried about conductivity for quality control. Pure water ensures there isn't crap to deposit in your loop, and ensures I have a good clean starting point to add ions. That is really all I'm worried about as far as conductivity and this coolant goes.

Actually, I am curious Iandh if you put so much silver into the solution doesn't that make the fluid conductive so if it leaks onto your board you could cause a short to happen?

I don't disagree that over time all water based fluids will become conductive, my question is whether or not his fluid starts off that way. I haven't had a leak occur after I have leak tested and therefore I am concerned with the conductivity during the initial install phase, not 6 months down the road.

It's definitely more conductive than distilled, but no more so than any other coolant. Even distilled will pick up contaminants from the loop and almost instantly lose its non conductivity upon installation.

People are very concerned about purity for non-conductivity, but in my case I'm just worried about certifiable quality and loop longevity.

[relttem]

sounds like a silver nanofluid?..how large are your silver colloids?

[Utnorris]

Can it be recycled for times when you drain your loop for upgrades?

[Erklat]

Can it be recycled for times when you drain your loop for upgrades?

My question exactly from this other thread.

Is it safe to conclude your product might be recycled for more than one use then?

[anzial]

I doubt that anyone would stop you from reusing it but you gonna lose it's main selling points: purity and silver content.

[Martinm210]

The initial conductivity measurement determines the purity of the water, and the secondary measurement determines the ion content.

As for horrid grocery store water, it can be either superb, or awful. That's basically one of the services I offer with this product... I'm taking a calibrated purity test meter and ensuring that this water is of a good quality.

Typically distilled water is very pure, but I've gotten some VERY bad batches. I'd say less than 5% of distilled is what I'd consider poor quality. Most is very good.

It can, but in my case I'm only worried about conductivity for quality control. Pure water ensures there isn't crap to deposit in your loop, and ensures I have a good clean starting point to add ions. That is really all I'm worried about as far as conductivity and this coolant goes.

It's definitely more conductive than distilled, but no more so than any other coolant. Even distilled will pick up contaminants from the loop and almost instantly lose its non conductivity upon installation.

People are very concerned about purity for non-conductivity, but in my case I'm just worried about certifiable quality and loop longevity.

Thanks!

FYI,
According to this:
http://www.smartmeasurement.com/en/w...nductivity.asp

100% Chlorine has a conductivity of 0.

There are quite a few other liquids that have a similar low conductivity level, so conductivity may or may not necessarily measure water purity.

But you obviously want some sort of purity check and conductivity is one measurement that might give you some indication of some minerals etc...

[BeepBeep2]

sounds like a silver nanofluid?..how large are your silver colloids?

he said smaller than the water molecules.

[iandh]

Thanks!

FYI,
According to this:
http://www.smartmeasurement.com/en/w...nductivity.asp

100% Chlorine has a conductivity of 0.

There are quite a few other liquids that have a similar low conductivity level, so conductivity may or may not necessarily measure water purity.

But you obviously want some sort of purity check and conductivity is one measurement that might give you some indication of some minerals etc...

Here is the manual for the meter that I use, Hanna Instruments Pure Water Tester, which reads microsiemens/cm.

From what I've read, conductivity in microsiemens is a pretty standard purity benchmark for water, but I agree that it can be anywhere from questionably useful to completely useless on other fluids.

I calibrate every month or two with a certified calibration solution that you can purchase from Hanna, which is why I feel comfortable making the claim that my coolant is of guaranteed purity.

Generally, "good" distilled should measure less than 0.5µS/cm, typically it is around 0.2-0.3µS.



The funny thing is, Grade II ASTM only states that the water is to be purer than 1µS/cm (along with a couple other specs), so in reality, Grade II ASTM water may actually be less pure than distilled from the supermarket.

The difference is that when I buy 5 gallons of ASTM Type II water, I have a guarantee of what I'm getting. When I buy supermarket distilled, it can go anywhere from superb to absurd. Usually though, from my experience, they're of equal quality.



I know this sounds funny, but IMO a superior option to buying my coolant (for people that change their loops regularly and use distilled), is to just fork out the $70 + $15 for meter and calibration solution, then they can be absolutely sure of what they're putting in their loop.

sounds like a silver nanofluid?..how large are your silver colloids?

An average of 0.002-0.003µm, up to 0.005µm. I haven't had my solution lab tested, but that is based upon a lab test done by someone using identical production methods, and lack of agglomeration vs. measured conductivity. From what I've gathered, as long as all production protocols are followed, the solution is extremely uniform from batch to batch.

[relttem]

If you are using a University see if they have a DLS system (Dynamic Light Scattering). That give an accurate reading of the particle size. We use that. We also used TEM and SEM to look at the particles, but you have to evaporate the sample to use those machines...still, if you get a chance it is pretty neat to look at an SEM/TEM screen.

[iandh]

If you are using a University see if they have a DLS system (Dynamic Light Scattering). That give an accurate reading of the particle size. We use that. We also used TEM and SEM to look at the particles, but you have to evaporate the sample to use those machines...still, if you get a chance it is pretty neat to look at an SEM/TEM screen.

Afaik the original tests done were with an SEM and some fluid dried on a slide. He also did some additional testing with various production variables to find out what had an effect on particle size, and what didn't. It basically boiled down to current density and stirring, although there were a couple other small things that could have some effect.

I do have some contacts down at APL from my military R&D career, so maybe I'll try and call in a favor for curiosity's sake.

[relttem]

Our problem with the SEM/TEM was that during evaporation anything that was suspended in the fluid will stay suspended until the very end..in our case it was because our particles were/are very close to being neutrally buoyant. That meant that our particles would end up agglomerated together, and it was hard to discern those agglomerated particles from original particle size using the SEM/TEM. But, the DLS uses a liquid sample to get a measurement of particle size and distribution - you get a bell curve of particle size distribution as a result. That suited our needs a lot better. It is pretty easy and super quick...nothing like setting up for a SEM/TEM measurement.

[Martinm210]

Here is the manual for the meter that I use, Hanna Instruments Pure Water Tester, which reads microsiemens/cm.

From what I've read, conductivity in microsiemens is a pretty standard purity benchmark for water, but I agree that it can be anywhere from questionably useful to completely useless on other fluids.

I calibrate every month or two with a certified calibration solution that you can purchase from Hanna, which is why I feel comfortable making the claim that my coolant is of guaranteed purity.

Generally, "good" distilled should measure less than 0.5µS/cm, typically it is around 0.2-0.3µS.

The funny thing is, Grade II ASTM only states that the water is to be purer than 1µS/cm (along with a couple other specs), so in reality, Grade II ASTM water may actually be less pure than distilled from the supermarket.

The difference is that when I buy 5 gallons of ASTM Type II water, I have a guarantee of what I'm getting. When I buy supermarket distilled, it can go anywhere from superb to absurd. Usually though, from my experience, they're of equal quality.

I know this sounds funny, but IMO a superior option to buying my coolant (for people that change their loops regularly and use distilled), is to just fork out the $70 + $15 for meter and calibration solution, then they can be absolutely sure of what they're putting in their loop.



An average of 0.002-0.003µm, up to 0.005µm. I haven't had my solution lab tested, but that is based upon a lab test done by someone using identical production methods, and lack of agglomeration vs. measured conductivity. From what I've gathered, as long as all production protocols are followed, the solution is extremely uniform from batch to batch.

Interesting, thanks!

Can you help us chemically challenged folks understand a bit more of what conductivity means for thermal performance.

I did a google search on μS and found some talk about Siemens or something. I chuckled for a bit then realized it was way beyond my understanding. I was hoping I might get some sense as to what this unit of measurement meant, but was at a loss.

What does this whole μS measurement mean? I understand it's for measuring purity, but I don't have a clue about scale. You noted that some grocery store distilled waters were really bad. How does this translate to % of impurity by volume. Better yet, how does it relate to thermal performance if at all?

Do you think the worst of the worst grocery store distilled waters would perform thermally any different than water that measures 100% pure. What about filtered tap water, would it have any thermal disadvantages?

In particular, how much on a common overclocked CPU loop. Would this "BAD DISTILLED" amount to 1 degree, 5 degrees? .000001degrees? loss in cooling.

Watercoolers understand one thing...temperature in degrees...we need a translation please..

[iandh]

Our problem with the SEM/TEM was that during evaporation anything that was suspended in the fluid will stay suspended until the very end..in our case it was because our particles were/are very close to being neutrally buoyant. That meant that our particles would end up agglomerated together, and it was hard to discern those agglomerated particles from original particle size using the SEM/TEM. But, the DLS uses a liquid sample to get a measurement of particle size and distribution - you get a bell curve of particle size distribution as a result. That suited our needs a lot better. It is pretty easy and super quick...nothing like setting up for a SEM/TEM measurement.

I do have some experience with electron micrography, but never with solids from dried solutions. I am actually curious whether he ran into the same issue as you did, and if so, what was done to get around the problem.

I wonder if you used a dilute solution, if it would help avoid agglomeration but still allow for an accurate count. I'm not sure if the silver content is enough where agglomeration after dessication would be an issue.

I'm definitely curious though, I'll probably send out a couple emails tomorrow.

Interesting, thanks!

Can you help us chemically challenged folks understand a bit more of what conductivity means for thermal performance.

I did a google search on μS and found some talk about Siemens or something. I chuckled for a bit then realized it was way beyond my understanding. I was hoping I might get some sense as to what this unit of measurement meant, but was at a loss.

What does this whole μS measurement mean? I understand it's for measuring purity, but I don't have a clue about scale. You noted that some grocery store distilled waters were really bad. How does this translate to % of impurity by volume. Better yet, how does it relate to thermal performance if at all?

Do you think the worst of the worst grocery store distilled waters would perform thermally any different than water that measures 100% pure. What about filtered tap water, would it have any thermal disadvantages?

In particular, how much on a common overclocked CPU loop. Would this "BAD DISTILLED" amount to 1 degree, 5 degrees? .000001degrees? loss in cooling.

Watercoolers understand one thing...temperature in degrees...we need a translation please..

One Ohm is roughly equal to One Siemen. Since Ohms is a measure of resistance and Siemens is commonly used to measure conductivity, more Ohms means more resistance, but more Siemens means less.

As far as thermal performance, I don't think there is much difference. I suppose there could be, but to me the main advantage of using pure water, is that the purer the water, the less the chance of corrosion. It also eliminates the possibility of mineral deposits inside blocks and radiators.

Conductivity is a good way to measure the ion/particle content of water, but I don't think thermal performance really is affected until you get to extremely high particle contents (comparitively) such as the nano-fluid relttem has been working on.

Just for comparison, and to give a rough idea of what good and bad are, lets call 1μS "pure". The final conductivity of Pure-Sil is around 6μS. Extremely poor quality distilled water can be as high as 50μS or even more (this would be very uncommon, from a bad production batch, etc.). It is rare that distilled water measures over 1μS, and very rare that it measures over 10μS. Tap water or mineral drinking water can go into the 100's of μS. Once you get to that level on conductivity, corrosion can start to be a problem.

As far as change in cooling, I'm pretty sure it would border on unmeasurable. Maybe once you get some really dirty water; in fact, might be a reason to fire up the old test rig there...




This is pretty sad (and funny), but the best way to buy good distilled water without having measuring equipment is to look at the label. If the label looks cheap and crappy (basically some off-brand stuff), then chances are, the water inside is cheap and crappy. This isn't a hard rule, as I've bought some off-brand distilled that is even better than name brand stuff.

I've found Sparkletts brand to be consistently good, and Arrowhead is usually good but not as consistent. I've gotten a bad batch of Arrowhead.

The water used for Pure-Sil is ASTM Type II bought in 5 gallons from a chemical supplier, but I buy a lot of distilled for use in other things, so I measure it each time just for kicks.

[Martinm210]

Thanks!

I dug up a couple of links while trying to educate myself. This one talks about the various water tests:

http://ga.water.usgs.gov/edu/characteristics.html

Sounds like water hardness would be another good one for build up problems. I've heard of it before and apparently not a problem in my area.

This one was also fairly interesting:
http://water.epa.gov/type/rsl/monitoring/vms59.cfm

This latter one does note that conductivity is only good for measuring inorganic solids, organic stuff like oils, etc would lower conductivity.

So if I'm getting this right...electrical conductivity is kind of like PH or water hardness...just one of many tests that are often done on water, but not really related at all to thermal performance.

I'm just slow, when I first saw the term conductivity, I thought "Thermal Conductivity" and more is better

I think I'm getting it slowly now..

[iandh]

Thanks!

I dug up a couple of links while trying to educate myself. This one talks about the various water tests:

http://ga.water.usgs.gov/edu/characteristics.html

Sounds like water hardness would be another good one for build up problems. I've heard of it before and apparently not a problem in my area.

This one was also fairly interesting:
http://water.epa.gov/type/rsl/monitoring/vms59.cfm

This latter one does note that conductivity is only good for measuring inorganic solids, organic stuff like oils, etc would lower conductivity.

So if I'm getting this right...electrical conductivity is kind of like PH or water hardness...just one of many tests that are often done on water, but not really related at all to thermal performance.

I'm just slow, when I first saw the term conductivity, I thought "Thermal Conductivity" and more is better

I think I'm getting it slowly now..

Yep, exactly. In this hobby we're so focused on thermal performance that it is naturally the first thing that comes to mind when one reads the word "conductivity". In this case you have to deprogram your natural response to the word; when it comes to water purity, less is more.

[relttem]

if you want the equations that show where thermal conductivity comes into play in a WC system it is contained in the Nusselt number, and that goes into the Dittus-Boelter equation for convective heat transfer:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nusselt_number

[MagisD]

Ummmmm *rasies his hand* is this gonna be on the mid-term.

I just seriously got flashbacks to my high school physic class's And the blonde who use to sit in front of me ;-).

But seriously though i have to Thank you guys for bring this to the next level. Even if i have absolutely no understanding of it.

[cegras]

How do you guarantee the stability of the colloid through prolonged agitation? I would think that over time the sol will aggregate?

[iandh]

How do you guarantee the stability of the colloid through prolonged agitation? I would think that over time the sol will aggregate?

The person who advised me on this uses it for industrial cooling systems, he has shelf life tested to 12 years, and loop tested to 2 years (that is the longest he has continuously run a loop) and still had no growth or agglomeration (the coolant will appear yellow from reflected light if it agglomerates into larger particles).

I've personally tested for one year and measured only slightly lower conductance, and no visual evidence of agglomeration, so I feel pretty safe saying this stuff is really stable.

[Biffa]

Well I for one feel conductivity matters somewhat.

You can survive massive leaks.

I fitted an Aquacomputer SLI Twinconnect the wrong way round on 4 GTX470's while leak testing and flooded the cards and PSU and case.




(Hint anyone fitting these the screws are ever so slightly offset from the inlet/outlet holes on the blocks)

I was there at the time, pulled the plug on the PSU before sparks started to fly but it took a while to get the loop drained enough to uncouple the cards from the rest of the computer. During which time I was removing the 1500W PSU madly unplugging cables, throwing about 3 rolls of kitchen paper into the case, swearing alot and feeling sick.

A few days later after some time to dry off in the linen cupboard and judicious use of a hairdryer everything is none the worse for wear.

Thats just demineralised and silver coil, probably about 250ml

[penguins]

and that's why you put the psu away from the case while leak testing ; ). i bassically did the same thing with my psu away from the case too tho.. so i can't say much hahah.

[Monkeyface]

Is this stuff in stock anywhere atm? or in the near future? I saw u said it would be at Petras, but i think its out of stock now.

[Martinm210]

Is this stuff in stock anywhere atm? or in the near future? I saw u said it would be at Petras, but i think its out of stock now.

http://www.frozencpu.com/products/11...tl=g30c103s753

[iandh]

Can it be recycled for times when you drain your loop for upgrades?

My question exactly from this other thread.

I missed these questions earlier, I don't see any good reason why not, providing you clean your loop thoroughly before the first fill... particularly defluxing the radiator.

The coolant is designed to last for a long time, so as long as you treat it well, I believe it should be quite reusable.