New rumor about ATI Southern Islands

[Carfax]

Charlie said they had planned a different card but scrapped it and only had Fermi in reserve so they had to make it fit. And I agree with him, Fermi could not really be nvidia's first choice for the gaming market, they would have known it would be a bastard to make but when you're planning to sell at 5k each it's not a issue.

I think Charlie was talking out of his a$$ if he said that.

Fermi follows the same pattern as previous Nvidia GPUs, in that the Quadro series is practically the same as the consumer GPU, except for different drivers, BIOS and a lot more VRAM.

I have to agree there. AMD's driver team seriously needs to get their act together, especially the stuff that get broke after being fixed before.

You said it, not me

[Calmatory]

Yep, Fermi is a failure when it's leading the 5000 series in most gaming benchmarks (especially DX11), and destroying the FirePro series in professional applications..

Not to mention xtreme high resolution gaming, and 3D gaming where again, Nvidia dominates ATI.

So you're talking from consumers point of view now? Interesting. Stick to that from now on.

It took Nvidia 6 months of lies(all that "THIS IS FERMI!!" bull) and very lame marketting(Announcement of an announcement. What?) to get it out. And when it got out... power consumption and crippled core. Nvidia failed. All you really need to do is to take a look at DX11 cards market share to see this. Nvidia is under 10 %. Definitely not something they aimed for, right?

[LightSpeed]

Yep, Fermi is a failure when it's leading the 5000 series in most gaming benchmarks (especially DX11), and destroying the FirePro series in professional applications..

Not to mention xtreme high resolution gaming, and 3D gaming where again, Nvidia dominates ATI

In xtreme high resolution gaming, I wouldnt say Nvidia dominates ATI, but leads them. That is, at the expense of massive power consumption.

Dominates is a strong word

You said it, not me

Yeah, I forgot to add the driver part. But still, the conclusion i made is unchanged. Nv features + better driver is outweighed by a faster + less power hungry card to most people.

From what I hear, the ATI driver team has no excuse to be poor, they have enough people and resources. I gotta say they do bring about minor performance boosts recently and have started to fix stuff more frequently => general improvement. But why break stuff they already fix? It completely baffles me

[Sn0wm@n]

LOL why is every amd related thread getting attention from tards ???

[Jowy Atreides]

LOL why is every amd related thread getting attention from tards ???

Fear. People's shares are at stake.

[cegras]

What? In terms of recent market share according to the Steam survey, ATI clearly leads nvidia in DX10 and 11 GPUs. All of nvidia's large marketshare is legacy left over from the 7xxx series.

[Jowy Atreides]

What? In terms of recent market share according to the Steam survey, ATI clearly leads nvidia in DX10 and 11 GPUs. All of nvidia's large marketshare is legacy left over from the 7xxx series.

Not market share, stock value dude.

You think there aren't people with chip stock who aren't aware that speculation and malicious rumours can affect the value of their assets?

When fake benchmarks appear, don't assume it's an attention whore. It could be anti competition fixing.

[informal]

Fear. People's shares are at stake.

That's unfortunately true.

[Carfax]

Nvidia is under 10 %. Definitely not something they aimed for, right?

I would think it obvious that this is because ATI had a 6 month head start on Nvidia

In xtreme high resolution gaming, I wouldnt say Nvidia dominates ATI, but leads them. That is, at the expense of massive power consumption.

Dominates is a strong word

Dominates is a strong word, but it's the truth.

Read this review from HardOCP about Nvidia surround vs Eyefinity using 480 SLi and HD 5870 2GB Crossfire @ 5760x1200

In the words of Kyle Bennett:

It is disturbingly obvious in our testing that GeForce GTX 480 SLI is superior to Radeon HD 5870 Eyefinity6 2GB and Radeon HD 5870 1GB CrossFireX configurations in 3x1 multi-display gaming. GeForce GTX 480 SLI is a powerhouse of performance at high resolution multi-display gaming. In every game we played it didn’t just come out on top a little, it completely owned the two HD 5870 CrossFireX setups.

Yeah, I forgot to add the driver part. But still, the conclusion i made is unchanged. Nv features + better driver is outweighed by a faster + less power hungry card to most people.

I would have to disagree with you on this. A fast card is nothing without good drivers that exploit the hardware to the fullest possible degree.

On that note, recent Nvidia drivers could do with some work as well. The 200xx drivers are very immature and should not have been released so early if you ask me.

Only with the beta release of the 259.32 drivers have I noticed that they are finally starting to get great optimization.

From what I hear, the ATI driver team has no excuse to be poor, they have enough people and resources. I gotta say they do bring about minor performance boosts recently and have started to fix stuff more frequently => general improvement. But why break stuff they already fix? It completely baffles me

Yep, like I said, as long as I've been a computer enthusiast, the notion that ATI has poor drivers has been around.

Thats more than 10 years now, so thats saying something!

LOL why is every amd related thread getting attention from tards ???

You mean tards that jump at every piece of rumor and treat it as though it's fact?

[spursindonesia]

Or perhaps a tard that can't stay on topic and running amok spreading FUDs in a frenzy mode & crapping the thread all over the place with mine card is bigger than yours attitude ?

[Carfax]

Or perhaps a tard that can't stay on topic and running amok spreading FUDs in a frenzy mode & crapping the thread all over the place with mine card is bigger than yours attitude ?

LOL yeah, as if you guys were staying on topic

How is,"Fermi a failure" on topic?

Or,"Nvidia is way behind on perf per mm2."

And in your own words,"I think GTX 480 will still be SUPERIOR .... as a room heater, remember, the cold days are arriving in the northern hemisphere."

Yeah, very on topic

[kadozer]

Carfax did you miss this article from H http://www.hardocp.com/article/2010/...8a_performance Would be interesting to test them out now. AMD's driver team is behind Nvidia's and needs to be more on top of fixing problems faster, is 1 thing I do agree with.

Just wait till the 6 series, after all you are comparing Fermi Nvidia's current gen to AMD's old one.


I'd like to see the next Fermi coming out this Q4 vs the 6 series.

[Carfax]

Carfax did you miss this article from H http://www.hardocp.com/article/2010/...8a_performance Would be interesting to test them out now. AMD's driver team is behind Nvidia's and needs to be more on top of fixing problems faster, is 1 thing I do agree with.

Yeah I saw that.. But, showing skepticism towards "miracle drivers" is a good thing.

In fact, a HardOCP forum member noted that Vsync and AA did not appear to be working properly with the new drivers

More.

Just wait till the 6 series, after all you are comparing Fermi Nvidia's current gen to AMD's old one.

Both Cypress/Hemlock and 480/470 are ATI and NVidia's first generation DX11 cards, so I don't think the comparison is unjustified.

[kadozer]

Yeah I saw that.. But, showing skepticism towards "miracle drivers" is a good thing.

In fact, a HardOCP forum member noted that Vsync and AA did not appear to be working properly with the new drivers

More.



Both Cypress/Hemlock and 480/470 are ATI and NVidia's first generation DX11 cards, so I don't think the comparison is unjustified.

6 months late is not justified. That is a good spin though. The miracle drivers bit is also good. I don't think anybody from AMD claimed them to be that good.

[Eastcoasthandle]

Yeah I saw that.. But, showing skepticism towards "miracle drivers" is a good thing.

In fact, a HardOCP forum member noted that Vsync and AA did not appear to be working properly with the new drivers

More.



Both Cypress/Hemlock and 480/470 are ATI and NVidia's first generation DX11 cards, so I don't think the comparison is unjustified.

There is nothing wrong with AA on Radeon cards as far as I know. However reports of it's use in game is not uncommon in BC2. Which indicate that it's not specific to any particular driver or video card. As for Vsync as far as I can see it works fine in BC2 in both single and multi player. So I honestly don't foresee any problem with the next gen cards.

[saaya]

Unless you're a semiconductor engineer, how could you possibly know that Fermi is power hungry due to "bad design?"

oh, your saying its designed to run hot on purpose then?
but why, you must be an ee engineer to make a claim like that!

I don't think most people here understand that Fermi is the first TRULY computational GPU. All those things you said about convergent technologies into one neat package, are made manifest in Fermi....in the sense that Fermi has many CPU like qualities such as being fully IEEE compliant, support for C++, having dedicated caches and support for much greater VRAM.

oh i think everybody knows that... we all saw those dozens of marketing slides from nvidia of how great fermi is and all the things you can do with it... in theory... i just think nobody cares...
thats not the reason somebody spends 250-500$ on a VGA = video graphics accelerator these days... when they buy a vga, guess what, they want it to ACCELERATE GRAPHICS! shocker!

you can sell chainsaw as a knife and advertise it as "can cut down a tree", itll still suck as a knife and nobody will want to carry such a huge expensive thing from the kitchen to the breakfast table every morning...
and all your talk about how it also serves as an "urban violence solver" and "stress relief super fun toy" wont make it a better knife...

The very fact that a GPU like Fermi, which isn't even a pure gamer chip can outperform Cypress (which is dedicated towards gaming) speaks volumes in and of itself.

and a rocket outperforms a ferrari, does that make it a better race car?

It wouldn't surprise me if Fermi ends up being 20% faster than it was on introduction, simply due to driver optimizations.

on average? hah! hahahahahhaha!

It's only a fact if you hold to your ignorant view that Fermi is a dedicated gaming processor, when the "fact" is, it's not.

can you stop jumping between these two points please? your making my head spin!

fermi isnt a graphics processor!
fermi is an awesome graphics processor!
fermi isnt a graphics processor!

Fermi is much more than just a gaming GPU, and as such, you can't hold it to the same standard as you do Cypress.

again!

It's an assumption based on recurrent past experience, so it's not as though it's groundless.

show us... ive seen several articles on the matter and they all proved that driver improvements of various gpus in the past years have resulted in a ~10% boost at most...
so which past experience are you talking about?
which past gpu makes youy think expecting a 20% boost is reasonable for fermi?
check out the first reviews of rv870 and compare them to the latest reviews comparing it to gf104 etc... and youll see that rv870 saw a boost of less than 10% throughout its lifetime...

It's a FACT that the HPC market is more profitable than the gamer market.

it is?

As I already mentioned previously, a Quadro video card can cost as much as 5,000 USD! With that kind of price tag, is it a groundless assumption to think that Nvidia investing more resources in HPC won't earn them more money?

quadro cards are aimed at hpc? i thought it was tesla?

You think Nvidia is stupid? Why do you think they designed Fermi in the first place?

at that time they were ahead in the graphics field by quite a fair bit, and they probably thought they could get away with all the gpgpu baggage on a gpu... do you think if given the chance nvidia would do the same thing again? i dont think so...

I'll do that the moment you guys stop acting as though the 6000 series is going to own Fermi.

you think its unreasonable to expect a new part to outperform an old part?

Charlie said they had planned a different card but scrapped it and only had Fermi in reserve so they had to make it fit. And I agree with him, Fermi could not really be nvidia's first choice for the gaming market, they would have known it would be a bastard to make but when you're planning to sell at 5k each it's not a issue.

hmmm where did he say that? do you remember the name of the article?

I have to agree there. AMD's driver team seriously needs to get their act together, especially the stuff that get broke after being fixed before.

yeah... i agree...
some of the things ive heard in the past couple of months made me glad im on nvidia cards atm... while there are annoying things in their drivers as well, its nothing major...

[Iconyu]

Man, he wrote so much it's hard to find something he said only once or twice.

How did this come about? Sources in Santa Clara tell SemiAccurate that GF100 was never meant to be a graphics chip, it started life as a GPGPU compute chip and then abandoned. When the successor to the G200 didn't pan out, the GF100 architecture was pulled off the shelf and tarted up to be a GPU. This is very similar to what happened to ATI's R500 Xenos, but that one seems to have worked out nicely in the end.

http://www.semiaccurate.com/2010/01/...anufacturable/

This rant is pretty famous, you'll probably remember it. And after reading it through, it actually is "semi-accurate". While he did overplay how bad the 480GTX would be, he was spot on about the card being "unmanufacturable", nvidia have not been able to market a 512 shader part after a year of making them. They are either broken or they can't get to target clocks without going over 300 watts.

ATI have much more room to move on 40nm, beating the 480 isn't impossible for them as long as they're careful about it.

[kadozer]

Man, he wrote so much it's hard to find something he said only once or twice.



http://www.semiaccurate.com/2010/01/...anufacturable/

This rant is pretty famous, you'll probably remember it. And after reading it through, it actually is "semi-accurate". While he did overplay how bad the 480GTX would be, he was spot on about the card being "unmanufacturable", nvidia have not been able to market a 512 shader part after a year of making them. They are either broken or they can't get to target clocks without going over 300 watts.

ATI have much more room to move on 40nm, beating the 480 isn't impossible for them as long as they're careful about it.

Its pretty amusing actually. Guy is talking like the pre release days of Fermi re-living its glorious pre hype release talk. Cuda cores, computational power, etc We needed a fun thread its been awhile.


AMD is pretty quiet about this upcoming series. That's always a good thing unlike Nvidia that talked up Fermi and we all know how that turned out. For a next gen gpu = meh.

[spursindonesia]

LOL yeah, as if you guys were staying on topic

How is,"Fermi a failure" on topic?

Or,"Nvidia is way behind on perf per mm2."

And in your own words,"I think GTX 480 will still be SUPERIOR .... as a room heater, remember, the cold days are arriving in the northern hemisphere."

Yeah, very on topic

LOL, atleast i start ALL of my pretenses with "IF" word, i don't command any claim or knowledge that they're all and nothing but the truth. OTOH, how are your posts that claim nVidia's supremacy FUDs regarding many things constructive to the discussion in this thread ? If your rebuttal is concentrated on making the point of the falsity of the leaked scores, then make it so, i have no problem with that. Heck, even claiming for sure that these new graphic chips from ATi would suck, it won't annoy me at all, you will be held accountable for anything you've said today by the forum, not me.

I'm so puzzled with cult like attitude by some forum members regarding products/companies, it's getting ridiculously ideological & pathetic. I've always get the best bang for the bucks products, manufacturer be damned. I've had good times with both nVidia & ATi cards while they're at the top of the game, such as GeForce 3 Ti, 6600 GT, 8800 GT for the green camp, Radeon 9500, X850 Pro, X1900 XT 256, and the current HD 4870. If i have the need for a new card at the moment, i might easily buy a GTX 460 1 GB for its perceived & appreciated great value. This is just so weird and sad IMHO.



EDIT: To make my self clear, my comment on "I think GTX 480 will still be SUPERIOR .... as a room heater, remember, the cold days are arriving in the northern hemisphere." was forwarded after you make all those FUDs carpet bomb claims. When you ROFLMAOing the leaks and people who hope for the best, i keep my silence.

Do i think Fermi has advantage in HPC arena ? Resounding YES. Do i think nVidia offers some exclusive features ? True, but perception of people regarding its importance & usefulness might vary. And regarding driver support + game IQ, i and many people that i know feel indifferent regarding these cause both camps have their up & down of each own, nothing to get bittered about.

In the end, we're talking about these products as Video Graphic Accelerator, and when the new generation of one company pulls ahead of the older generation of another, i call that a good technological advance and moving on, nothing to get defensive about like what you've done all over this thread. IF the numbers are true, then GTX 480 would be inferior as a graphic chip, aka slower for gaming, nothing shame about that since it has happened for eternity, and you may keep enjoying your personal preferences no problem. Just keep your FUD opinions for your self, else it will be called accordingly by others.

[mindfury]

Oops...

[cold2010]

ASUS HD6870 ROG video:
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjAyNjAyODA4.html

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjAyNjAzMDg4.html

This is just a concept design i made in 3ds max 2009. I redesigned the intake fan with dual turbine fans. This model takes two PCI-E 8 pins for great overclocking. The card is approx. 11.5 inches long. Rendered with V-ray. Hope you enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AS7YqRpvZ7Y

[tajoh111]

ASUS HD6870 ROG video:
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjAyNjAyODA4.html

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjAyNjAzMDg4.html

Considering the floating letters and everything, I am pretty sure that is a render.

[flopper]

ASUS HD6870 ROG video:
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjAyNjAyODA4.html

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjAyNjAzMDg4.html

black = sexy.

[saaya]

Man, he wrote so much it's hard to find something he said only once or twice.
http://www.semiaccurate.com/2010/01/...anufacturable/

This rant is pretty famous, you'll probably remember it. And after reading it through, it actually is "semi-accurate". While he did overplay how bad the 480GTX would be, he was spot on about the card being "unmanufacturable", nvidia have not been able to market a 512 shader part after a year of making them. They are either broken or they can't get to target clocks without going over 300 watts.

ATI have much more room to move on 40nm, beating the 480 isn't impossible for them as long as they're careful about it.

you did it nevertheless!
thx man, appreciated

about fermi never being meant as a graphics card... i dont think so... its limited enough as a gp processor to make it unlikely that it was originally built for that alone... but i wouldnt be surprised if gf100 was originally planned for 32nm... but since they were ahead of ati by so much (back then) and they knew about intel lrb... they probably thought they could use a shortcut and squeeze it into 40nm... very risky... and it kinda blew up in their face, heh

if it would have worked out... very good... but really, it was pretty weird to expect it to work out fine... there were so many things that could go wrong, and its soooo unlikely it all would have worked out...

but you gotta give props to nvidia, for how much went wrong, they took it amazingly well imo... they took a big blow but they didnt even get on their knees let alone fall... but from now on nvidia needs to make stable steps, if they get another serious hit they will def be on their knees soon...

LOL, atleast i start ALL of my pretenses with "IF" word, i don't command any claim or knowledge that they're all and nothing but the truth.

if, i think, i believe and imo are important catalysts in online discussions
... in my opinion ^^

ASUS HD6870 ROG video:
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjAyNjAyODA4.html

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjAyNjAzMDg4.html

hmmmmmm
that weird fan system doesnt look very realistic... and why does it say Asus Crosshair at the end?

[mindfury]

that weird fan system doesnt look very realistic... and why does it say Asus Crosshair at the end?

Because it is fake,I got fooled,damn...