Andre Yang - Lifetime Ban

[Buckeye]

I understand everyone's point of view on the matter and I feel its best to step down from staff.

Sad day that this has happened, very sorry to see you step down Vapor. I hope that after all this clears up and things settle down you will rethink this and come back.

It truely is a shame that all this has happened, the bannings and other side effects of this.

Like I just said, I hope that after some time and level headed thinking that true progess can be made in this sport to prevent all this from happening again.

[vasgto]

Was there any written rule in this Lords Of Overclocking competition where benching and giving results to someone else is forbidden?

From what I see, that is not forbbiden. So what Andre and Hiwa did is ok?

Technically - no rule was broken, just like in the other case.
Ethically - this is a big deal, just like in the other case.

Yet the other case was ok, and these guys get crucified...Hmm...



Just to be clear, this is exactly how the LOrds Of Overclocking rulez look in the moment I make this post.

+1 This has been the whole point I've been trying to make...

and Technically: Which XS competition did he violate?
and Technically: Which HWBOT competition/submission did he violate?

Yet he is banned (and the other guys too) from both websites

[WhiteFireDragon]

this thread has stirred quite a ruckus. i think some of the bans are a little harsh. Cam cheated in his submitted results, horrible decision, and there should definitely be consequences for that. however, is a complete ban from XS deserved? he's been a great value to the WC community, and has done nothing like flame, or promote certain brands (please no RRR debate), or stir any kind of trouble in this section. sure, ban him from the xtreme overclocking and bandwidth section where it relates, but not from other sections.

the shame and loss of respect is the biggest punishment IMO. very sad to see vapor in regular blue color

[Monstru]

To monstru:

By participating in the Competition you hereby warrant, that you have created the entry by yourself

1. was this there before yesterday?
2. I give you a .3dr file. Please create an entry on the Lord Of Overclocking site by yourself

the shame and loss of respect is the biggest punishment IMO

That is one of the truest things I have heard today...

Everyone should respect the codec, the written and unwritten rules...

Also, a very, very true allegation.

[Leeghoofd]

+1 This has been the whole point I've been trying to make...

and Technically: Which XS competition did he violate?
and Technically: Which HWBOT competition/submission did he violate?

Yet he is banned (and the other guys too) from both websites

Some bans on Hwbot are going further than just this event, just read up in the HWbot forums...

[Solus Corvus]

I see this differently than you. Vapor told Skinnee his feelings on the matter and then went to bed.
How can he be held accountable in any way for what Skinnee or anyone else did.
If I tell you that I think I'm going to go rob a bank and you tell me you think thats a bad idea and then I do so are you to also be charged with the crime?
I think not.

IMO, knowing that someone has cheated and keeping silent about it is exactly what lead to this situation. Somehow several people knew exactly where to go when they decided to cheat. So the information is out there but people aren't talking. When the next OC scandal emerges I bet it it will also be by someone who some people know is cheating but didn't say anything. A culture of silence about cheating isn't what this community needs, IMO. We have seen how destructive it can be when exposed in other sports.

I'm not blaming Vapor for letting skinnee choose his own path. But if it hadn't blown up and Vapor kept silent about it he would have lost a lot of respect from me. Everyone chooses their own actions and keeping silent is a choice too.

Also, the analogy doesn't really hold because knowing someone robbed a bank and willfully keeping it silent is a crime.

[Manicdan]

Ok,thanks for the clarification.
I do guess that it's time that this "non legal tweak"be listed as not allowed and save ourselves these discussions.

i would leave that up to futuremark, they list dozens of pages of info when you submit, but dont detect that kind of stuff?

i knew about dropping mipmap back in 2005, ati tray tools was all i needed, got a few hundred more points.

[Utnorris]

I think where we differ is that you forget that mods are also people and aren't thinking as mods 24/7
What should he have done?
Break Skinnee's hands so he couldn't make a submission?
Remember these two guys are VERY close friends.
Vapor told him his feelings and went to bed.
I can't see what more he could have done.

It's not solely about being a mod or being a person. It's about holding the same standard that we hold to others to the ones here. If we are not going to condone Sidewinders for being "associated" with another site then we have to hold our own members (especially mods) to the same standard. He saw something that was not right and chose to ignore it. If HWBOT had not pursued this then the individuals would have gotten away with cheating in the competition and stealing what should have been rightfully someone else's win. It's that simple. Vapor has stepped down and that's the right thing to do in this situation. I am surprised that you have taken the stance that you have given your past posts in other situations. I could understand if you had decided to stay out of the whole mess due to your relationship with the parties in question, but to come in and actually defend them really does surprise me. Quite honestly, it's somewhat disappointing and I expected more.

[Gautam]

1. was this there before yesterday?
2. I give you a .3dr file. Please create an entry on the Lord Of Overclocking site by yourself



That is one of the truest things I have heard today...


Also, a very, very true allegation.

I think it's just a difference in culture. Right and wrong I know the difference between, but when it to laws and rules things are different. Probably would not have taken the same actions as Charles however he broke no rules either time. Beyond that is just a matter of opinion, we can both continue to voice ours but it changes nothing.

[ReverendMaynard]

I understand everyone's point of view on the matter and I feel its best to step down from staff.

There are allot of posts here coming from people who cannot fully grasp, process or articulate their point of view correctly and you're on the receiving end of absolute bull association theories. You can't force someone to do the right thing, you walking away was the RIGHT thing by cutting off your association with what skinnee was up to.

You stepping down puts the icing on the cake. ty icing.

[WhiteFireDragon]

dave, though it's hard to believe this is all happening, utnorris is right. no amount of analogies will defend the ethics behind this. i think this is the one time you should let this go

[systemviper]

Vapor, I have no ill feelings toward you, I understand you were in a difficult situation and unfortunately I think you made a bad decision at that time. While I take no pleasure in seeing you step down I think it's the right decision under these circumstances.

I agree, i thing that being a admin at XS does carry some moral baggage, And if you know someone is cheating in our sport, in the sport that your an admin on the TOP forum then you have a moral obligation to do something once you knew that something happened. That must have been one tough moment when you woke up and knew your friend made a bogus submission, thus pushing some hardworking overclocker out of the top spots...


Next, it amazes me that some people consider this ok, If you have to edit the registry to help your score, how could you feel that that is OK, I would think that is common sense. Going into the registry and making a change, i am just flabergasted, but that is me and i am not a top overclocker (yet)
But just to be sure was it changing the way the benchmarking program did its routine, or was it changing the way your machine ran.



But i don't understadn what he did so i have to ask a question............
I can see how maybe changing a regisrty setting to make your machine faster might be ok, but if yoru are directly editing the way the benchmarking software is working, how could that be ok>?

[halfwaythere]

My 2 cents:

Damn bad luck for Andre cause none told him you can get away with bending the rules. Oh wait, that only applies to certain folks. Double standard much? Its truly sickening how folks change their values when 'someone else' messed up.

[massman]

I do guess that it's time that this "non legal tweak" be listed as not allowed and save ourselves these discussions.

I guess most of them are listed somewhere and it's just a matter of getting them in for competitions as well.

But, think about it. We're basically discussing a situation here where the lack of respect of overclockers towards other overclockers lead to a very nasty situation. Also, a lot of the people I see commenting here are agreeing on the fact that if feels as if the respect for other overclockers is sometimes missing. If these complaints are legit and we want things to change, is the way to do it really to make live competition rulebooks as complicated as possible to make sure everyone plays fair?

M.Beier already gave a good example: at the P55 OC Event, GIGABYTE gave us the normal bios. Some guys had the bios with extra Vcore ... they could've kept it to themselves, but in the end we just passed around the bios for everyone to enjoy. Things like this happen on all events: I remember Elmor giving SF3D and me his settings in the first MOA EU 2008 round because we got stuck.

In the end, each individual is responsible for his actions. If the individual finds it okay to go over the rules and find loopholes to grab the win, fine. But he also has to accept that other people might no see this as ok and might even be offended by it.

I'd really hate to see an overclocking community where rules and regulations are the only way to prevent people from pulling dirty tricks. It would take the fun out of overclocking quite rapidly.

[Gautam]

If these complaints are legit and we want things to change, is the way to do it really to make live competition rulebooks as complicated as possible to make sure everyone plays fair?

Yes, because we're all humans and all humans have their dark sides. (as we plainly see here)

[MadHacker]

I think banning someone like Skinnee does a lot more then just punish him.
It also punishes everybody that would read helpful post made by him.

Typically in the criminal courts before the judge passes sentence, the defendant has the right to say something on his/her behalf which can change the way the judge passes its sentence.
I don't think this was done but should be.

also someone who contributes shouldn't get the same sentence as someone who does nothing. event though it is the same crime.
Just punishing everybody the same way I think is not right.

my 2¢

[massman]

Yes, because we're all humans and all humans have their dark sides. (as we plainly see here)

Those individuals can be removed.

No need to make things difficult for the group if it's a few individuals that are causing issues.

[Monstru]

This is supposed to be about a relative small number of persons that admire each other, share the same passion, and have a gentlemen's code. If that gentlemen's code is gone, there are no rules my friend, no matter how many you write in a textbook. How would you stop people from choping PiFast results? There is no verification whatsoever, so just saying don't cheat and not beeing able to prove it will not be enough for that, don't you think? No, what is actually stopping people from doing this is common sense, and honor. When the honor is gone, the rules really don't matter that much anymore.

[poparamiro]

From now on the rules must be extremely clear.

For cheating, the ban (hwbot) must be for life. When you cheat you do it with full knowledge of the case, is not somethig like "ups i take this pill by mistake" and i am not guilty.

[Leeghoofd]

M.Beier already gave a good example: at the P55 OC Event, GIGABYTE gave us the normal bios. Some guys had the bios with extra Vcore ... they could've kept it to themselves, but in the end we just passed around the bios for everyone to enjoy. Things like this happen on all events: I remember Elmor giving SF3D and me his settings in the first MOA EU 2008 round because we got stuck.

Another great example of sportsmanship where the Benelux MOA qualifiers. Corsair was so smart to provide different RAM samples varying from 1600C6/8 to 2000C8/9. We spotted this and suggested to take single channel ops only so everybody had a dimm with the same IC's...

If we hadn't told the otehr teams they would have noticed it until it was too late and we could have pretended like our noses bled...

This is how it should be run S P O R T S M A N S H I P ( or is that word banned here as soon as money is involved ? )

[Gautam]

While I agree that's all very nice, I think it's just impractical to expect such sportsmanship in every contest. I've been in this scene for quite a long time, and I've been seeing cheating and dishonesty from the beginning. You guys are essentially begging everyone to be good sportsmen. I, on the other hand, expect people to be underhanded, and consider how to prevent them from getting away with it. You can sit here commenting on how sad the current state of affairs is, but I can only assure you it'll only keep getting worse.

Never a single contest either live or online that's not wrought with controversy.

[zsamz_]

My 2 cents:

Damn bad luck for Andre cause none told him you can get away with bending the rules. Oh wait, that only applies to certain folks. Double standard much? Its truly sickening how folks change their values when 'someone else' messed up.

wth you talkin
to me it was blatant
anyone protectin cheaters got something in common
everyone tweeks but there has to be rules set for that
when you have sponsors stirrin the pot
i started overclocking slightly long ago and got into it alot more when i saw shamino overclock onboard video its just plain fun

nowadays its gettin dissgusting
i wonder who Andre's sponsor was

[Movieman]

While I agree that's all very nice, I think it's just impractical to expect such sportsmanship in every contest. I've been in this scene for quite a long time, and I've been seeing cheating and dishonesty from the beginning. You guys are essentially begging everyone to be good sportsmen. I, on the other hand, expect people to be underhanded, and consider how to prevent them from getting away with it. You can sit here commenting on how sad the current state of affairs is, but I can only assure you it'll only keep getting worse.

Never a single contest either live or online that's not wrought with controversy.

I love to compete and I like winning but and maybe I'm in the minority on this, what you take away from the competitions is the people you met.
Much more important than winning IMHO

[Gautam]

Trust me, that's the only reason I go to these things.

Still, they are contests at the end of the day...

[Movieman]

Trust me, that's the only reason I go to these things.

Still, they are contests at the end of the day...

Yes they are but that needs to be keptin a certain perspective..
You and I agree, we just say it different.