Check this homemade WB out

[nateman_doo]

nateman did his test w/ his i7 920 running at 2.79. Many people with i7's who venture into water cooling run their systems at 4+.

Many others just run stock numbers as well. Not everone OC's there stuff for daily use, but still it should be able to hang. I am at a loss for words.

[BeepBeep2]

And not just that, but alot of people run water to run quietly.

I can run my loop passively and still get acceptable temps. It's awesome.

[nateman_doo]

yea, I will be the first to say that the fan I used for this is NOT quiet at ALL on full blast. I don't much care about noise though. @ 50% it is fairly quiet.

[Martinm210]

I just can't see how 4lbs of copper with close to 50 fins could perform so poorly, when it works with air alone and no water?

That's what most of us coming from air over to water think. It comes back to the difference in mediums. Water is so efficient at transfering and storing heat that the copper itself becomes an insulator of sorts in comparison(it can't move heat fast enough at great distances to keep up). This is also why copper bases are so thin. If mass and surface area was the key, water blocks would look like air cooling tower sinks.

Thermal properties of water is just so different all that matters for cpu/water exchange is basically the bottom few millimeters of copper that is in contact with the IHS over the cores. The rest of that 4 lbs of copper is only contributing to the water/air heat exchange. That water/air exchange is where size matters...and that's because air technically is an insulator, it sucks at heat exchange and it also sucks at storing heat especially the storage piece.

And I'm no expert, I dropped thermo when I was in college many years ago, my experience comes from my own random experiments. I suppose a lot of block design today is a result of experiments though...there are too many variables to pin down theoretically. If you could optimize using theory alone someone like bill adams or cathar would have already done it...

Anyhow, don't give up...its a neat idea and something different is always cool. Maybe a standard copper waterblock with heatpipes soldered to a more conventional aluminum hsf would be another idea to the same hybrid idea. Pumps do fail and not everyone wants massive radiators.

[nateman_doo]

Then by what your saying the new design improvement I came up with will work much better. I MAY be able to bang out one before I go away and send it back to Vapor, but thats assuming I finish all the other projects I am working on.

[Sideroxylon]

These results are actually worse than I expected them to be. But I did figure they wouldn't be anywhere near what your testing showed Nate.

One of the reasons I started this thread was to get you to send the block in for testing. I was a bit concerned with all the people over at EVGA that thought this was the greatest thing since ice cream and wanted to buy one without seeing any independent testing first. Hopefully you haven't sold too many of these. Based on Vapors results you're going to have some unhappy customers if so. I trust you'll be posting the results over at EVGA.

That being said, I hope you're not too discouraged. This hobby needs people trying new things to help move it forward. Hopefully you've learned some things and your next project will be better for it.

[BeepBeep2]

That's what most of us coming from air over to water think. It comes back to the difference in mediums. Water is so efficient at transfering heat that the copper itself becomes an insulator of sorts. This is also why copper bases are so thin. If mass and surface area was the key, water blocks would look like air cooling tower sinks.

Mass and surface area are very key.

Ideally you want the least mass and most surface area at the base, and most mass and further surface area everywhere else on the block. If you get the base right, the rest of the block is just icing on the cake. This hybrid idea could actually work quite well if you have a base type array on the topside of the block. It would hurt flow though.

[Martinm210]

Mass and surface area are very key.

Ideally you want the least mass and most surface area at the base, and most mass and further surface area everywhere else on the block. If you get the base right, the rest of the block is just icing on the cake. This hybrid idea could actually work quite well if you have a base type array on the topside of the block. It would hurt flow though.

Only the bottom few millimeters of copper thickness is effective at transferring cpu heat to the water..the rest of the 4 lbs isn't helping the cpu/water heat exchange...it can only work to dissipate heat from the water.

Even as a radiator, what do you see...very thin copper tubes attached to very thin fins and ginormous surface area...but again little mass/thickness in contact with the water. Waters thermal coductivity and storage is so good..large masses of copper cause more harm than good. This is also why heat pipes came along for air cooling...material properties are key and completely different that air..

[nikhsub1]

Let's summarize.

LOL. No one has a patent first and foremost because adding fans and external fins to a WB does NOTHING.

Maybe... maybe not...
The jury is still out.

No, it isn't.

Oh, it looks like you've tried it before! Gooodie!

Please do tell.

I don't need to now do I?

I'm going to side with Nik on this one.

Smart man!

nate, will you quit posting here till the test are done?
this nonesense seems never ending.

So I said what the outcome would be and I was proven right, is it still nonsense? Or are you nonsense?

Excellent idea. However, tests are not needed to know I am correct about this.

really? correct about what?
did no one ask for anyones approval. so im not sure what your going on about.

I wasn't going on about anything - I was stating facts and most of you were basically telling me to get lost.

(and, just so you understand - nikhsub1's posts aren't being deleted, because he has more knowledge about water cooling - and the early days of the hobby - than most of us. He's stated his opinion without making any personal attacks).

I will predict that the test results coming from Vapor won't resolve this for everyone.

shazza, my comments weren't deleted because they were correct... I hate to say I told you so... the last bit I disagree with however, the results pretty much resolve it all - it doesn't work... However, I do like the out of the box thinking so he should continue to tinker IMO.

These results are actually worse than I expected them to be.

I thought just the opposite really.

There wasn't any noticeable 'radiator effect' either...

[rehpyc]

It's ok, nikhsub, my original posts got deleted for the small bits of laughs and jabs compared to the larger bits containing pertinent information and opinion. The results of Vapor's tests confirmed my intuitions, but grandma shazza didn't like my witty jabs :[

nateman, continue to be innovative, but you really need to hone in on what market you are wanting to attract. as a water block itself, your block performs poorly. as an air block itself, your block performs poorly. with how big of a block of copper it is, it'll cost too much. at the very least, hopefully you learned a thing or two from Vapor's testing to be able to do your own effective testing for the next revision you make to your block. keep your head up and continue tinkering. at the very least, you'll find that something like this works for you and maybe a few others.

[rge]

Wow, it did a lot better than I thought it would do. On his EVGA post, the heatkiller test was done at 18-19C higher ambients based on GPU, system, vreg temps (not even arguable...1 fan in its position is irrelevant for system or gpu temps, and apparently also for vreg temps, and Realtemp min temps are not relevant since it was reset), so correcting for ambients his block performed about 10C worse than heatkiller in his own test at lower overclock. And 20 C worse on vapors test at higher overclock. So really to me, testing matches up.

When I tried to cool my i7 overclocked with an old zalman with heatpipes (improves heat transfer with air) + about 8x surface area in copper fins over his block, It was still worse than 20C difference, though maybe newer zalmans would fare better.

When Vapor was testing it, I thought it would throttle the entire time at 100C....so again, I was amazed at the performance.

[nateman_doo]

New revisions are already on the drawing board that will certainly perform better. The problem I am running into is time. I only have 2 hands and the clock is ticking.

I would have liked to seen these tests on stock clocks as a baseline before an overclocking test. Maybe the tests would not have reflected as poorly and might have reflected data closer to mine?

[Manicdan]

watercooling is about removing a much higher heat load than aircooling can do. stock clocks work fine and almost always near silent with even stock cooling.

[nateman_doo]

BTW, We all bow to your superiority. Your crystal ball is all knowing.

Let's summarize.

I don't ever quit.

[nikhsub1]

I would have liked to seen these tests on stock clocks as a baseline before an overclocking test. Maybe the tests would not have reflected as poorly and might have reflected data closer to mine?

Why? The higher the heat load the more pronounced the performance differences are... this is what we want... why would we want tests that numb the numbers?

[nikhsub1]

BTW, We all bow to your superiority. Your crystal ball is all knowing.



I don't ever quit.

I didn't need a crystal ball to know the outcome, that is my point. I am glad you never quit, I don't think anyone here wants you to quit, least of all me

[ReggieSanchez]

IMO 20 degrees under the "top" performing blocks is a huge accomplishment for a man with a drill press in his basement. I cant see what you will come out with with your new tools/resources. Keep up the good work natemandoo.



ReggieSanchez proud supporter of camp BlockMan

[NaeKuh]

Mass and surface area are very key.

Ideally you want the least mass and most surface area at the base, and most mass and further surface area everywhere else on the block. If you get the base right, the rest of the block is just icing on the cake. This hybrid idea could actually work quite well if you have a base type array on the topside of the block. It would hurt flow though.

Errrr your thinking is half correct... so i give you half credit.

Mass is not important in relation to efficiency of medium which is used to pick up in relation to surface area.

In water, where you have a greater absorbtion on the water side vs disappation of heat on the air side, you want as little mass on the copper as possible, and more surface area so water can pick up.

If you have more mass where water picks up or disappates, you have excess.
This excess is usless in a ambient system, because of the difference in mediums.

Now in a Chilled environment mass is important.
Why? because your not sheding heat which an ambient system does, you are pounding cold.

So you want MASS, to keep the block Cold....

Anyhow Nate i was talking to vapor, and we both said it would be interesting if you threw a TEC in between the fins and that top plate.
If you had something to pull sub ambient, and the fins cooling the hotside on the tec you might have an interesting product.

Because if i calculate correctly, you can probably throw a 60-90W tec on a 12V power rail without much problems.
Then you will have 45-65W of cooling on your CPU component, and your rad can shed the excess heat off.

You will lose effiency in your system, however you would get some interesting results... especially on a long idle period followed by quick load sessions.... because your prechilling the block each prefront load with that MASS.

You wont pull sub ambient because your rad would turn into a heater if your water went below ambient.
But you would pull work off your rad, and probably get closer to ambient.

[Vapor]

Why? The higher the heat load the more pronounced the performance differences are... this is what we want...

+1

Going to stock clocks will just compact the data. Instead of 20C behind, it'll be maybe 10C behind, but C/W will remain the same.

And it doesn't change the data from the overclocked tests.

Errrr your thinking is half correct... so i give you half credit.

Mass is not important in relation to efficiency of medium which is used to pick up in relation to surface area.

In water, where you have a greater absorbtion on the water side vs disappation of heat on the air side, you want as little mass on the copper as possible, and more surface area so water can pick up.

If you have more mass where water picks up or disappates, you have excess.
This excess is usless in a ambient system, because of the difference in mediums.

Now in a Chilled environment mass is important.
Why? because your not sheding heat which an ambient system does, you are pounding cold.

So you want MASS, to keep the block Cold....

Anyhow Nate i was talking to vapor, and we both said it would be interesting if you threw a TEC in between the fins and that top plate.
If you had something to pull sub ambient, and the fins cooling the hotside on the tec you might have an interesting product.

Because if i calculate correctly, you can probably throw a 60-90W tec on a 12V power rail without much problems.
Then you will have 45-65W of cooling on your CPU component, and your rad can shed the excess heat off.

You will lose effiency in your system, however you would get some interesting results... especially on a long idle period followed by quick load sessions.... because your prechilling the block each prefront load with that MASS.

You wont pull sub ambient because your rad would turn into a heater if your water went below ambient.
But you would pull work off your rad, and probably get closer to ambient.

For the record, NaeKuh is the one who is gung-ho on TECs, I'm not as much

But I do think there is potential to airsink a TEC to a waterloop, for simplicity's sake (dual loops aren't required).

As for mass of the block, with an extended load mass becomes irrelevant. Higher mass resists change, but it doesn't change the eventual equilibrium, only how long it takes to reach equilibrium.

[Manicdan]

im gonna disagree with the TEC too, how would you not waste the energy by cooling down the water thats just going to a radiator?

[skinnee]

because Naekuh is just looking for someone to start playing with TEC's so he can drop his ever lasting TEC project that has been static for 3yrs on them.

TEC's are an interesting proposition I agree, but I am still hesitant to go down that road...

[nikhsub1]

TEC's are an interesting proposition I agree, but I am still hesitant to go down that road...

Agreed. I will never be convinced that they are a 24/7/365 solution...

[NaeKuh]

im gonna disagree with the TEC too, how would you not waste the energy by cooling down the water thats just going to a radiator?

water in a closed loop works on the principle of equalibrium.

This has been proven with math and with lab tests from almost every tester we had.

Now you have TEC... which is something that pulls heat and moves it to another side.

It doesnt work on simple properties of convection and radiation, it pulls heat @ the cost of work, and moves it to the hot side.

Now the wonderful thing about nates's design with a tec on top is that he has a safety net.

Whats that? the a protection for him incase the TEC dies, or if his TEC is too powerful.

But at the same time it will be limited to the tec size and cooling potential due to block size.

SO now he has mass + something that pulls heat regardless of where its at + water safety net.

The TEC will charge the block to hold ambient... or as close to ambient as possible.

Under long and heavy load sessions the tec will become usless, i agree, 45-65W of heat is tiny.. but when were looking at a 180W to a 200W...

That would bring that heat down to almost dualcore levels... and thats a win in my book.

What does that mean? A GPU might be possible with a MCR220 with a CPU on the same loop.
^ Major Win for SFF builds...

because Naekuh is just looking for someone to start playing with TEC's so he can drop his ever lasting TEC project that has been static for 3yrs on them.

TEC's are an interesting proposition I agree, but I am still hesitant to go down that road...

We are STAGNET in water.
The next big migration for us will be TEC's on PWM Controller, so we can see cake and eat it too.
Meaning we get efficiency!!!!

Cam mark my words i am calling it NOW.

[Manicdan]

i still dont see much point for a TEC, its going to be like a small chiller, except cooled right above the cpu by heatsink. if your case is already restrictive on size, then the airflow will probably be double dipping and trying to cool the radiator and the heatsink with the same air. except now theres an extra 80W TEC to worry about too.

i still think the best thing is to use as little copper as possible for reduced costs, add in a few heatpipes since they give great heat removal for their size restrictions, and they allow for more usefull shapes of heatsinks. and a fan that when used with the hybrid block can push out about 100-150W without seeing 100C (it would be to protect from overheating during idling or light use, it would be tough to ensure that 218W can be removed by a heatsink alone)

[Vapor]

TECs have two major, major issues.

First, reliability.

Second, power consumption increase vs. performance gain is just awful. Take what your CPU consumes, multiply it by 2.5x, and you get maybe 5-10% more performance. Just an awful performance/watt ratio.