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Thread: Nvidia: Hybrid PhysX Is Technically Impossible

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katanai View Post
    And nope again.

    If people would buy Nvidia cards and use them with ATI hardware they would be compelled to offer support to them and make sure that it does work. Now what if "holy ATI" would break this compatibility themselves through drivers to hurt Nvidia's sales? What then? Would Nvidia be able "To deliver a good experience for users" ?
    u cannot break gpu phsyX without breaking cpu physX. it returns the same values from the api if u have a cpu or a gpu. im not saying that ati will never break phsyX (i dont see it happening) but if they break gpu physX it would also break cpu physX.

    physX is just a marketing tool to sell cards, as such they cannot let ati use any of thier proprietary features or else it defeats the purpose. why would they go an kill cpu performance unless they wanted exclusive visual features on their hardware only. i know its played out but look at batmanAA, u have a hack that took some1 2 weeks to make that enables multi threaded cpu phsyX so there is no way that the devs would have not done it if they were allowed to, then if u look through the drivers if u start with the 1st NV drivers that were still rebadged agea drivers the banners and fog worked on all physX modes and they did not effect fps then u update to the latest drivers at the time or the ones that it shipped with and all the sudden the fog is gone and the fps drop with less effects. they also changed the retail game to add the useless calculation paper floating around on all but the lowest no physX effect mode when in the demo that was the only difference from the high and mid range was that mid had everything and worked fine on the single cpu thread with all of the other effects fine and little to no fps drop with the old drivers and no GPGPU. then u have the same thing in darkest of days were they use only a few phsyX effects that are not hard on the cpu that matter for game play, but then they put leafs that float around u so u cannot do phsyX effects without having a GPGPU. i dont play many games with physX and i havnt played more recent ones like metro33 but u can see that games that used physX when it was agea always had multithreaded cpu phsyX and they focused on keeping the fluff like paper or leaves to the highest setting and in game effects were kept to a medium setting so they could sell the API and have full support for cpu only users. since NV took over agea physX its been given away to devs and i havnt seen it used in a game that was not sponsored by NV. that clearly makes it no longer a tool for physics but a marketing tool to sell GPUs.


    and how is this any different from IBM dissabling features if u did not have official IBM hardware, or intel disabling features if u did not have an intel chipset, in both of those cases the features had nothing to do with the chipset or add on hardware this is the same phsyX, the unit the computes the values for the physX api has nothing to do with the api handing the values to the game engine to be rendered. for a non computer analogy it would be like saying that if u did not get gas from chevron then your car would only run at half power, or if u were running a construction site that u had to use milwaukee power tools only or you had to use only hand tools
    Last edited by zanzabar; 05-05-2010 at 01:47 PM.
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    nVidia's decisions as of late irritate me quite a bit, they sure must have apple syndrome or something with all these decisions they are making. I hope ATI stomps them with a refresh soon and takes their OEM distributors.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Final8ty View Post
    Sounds like what Intel was doing & fined in court.
    Nope, Intel was accused of handing out financial incentives to stop the competition and not disabling features.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Helloworld_98 View Post
    yet just weeks ago they said they'd do PhysX on OpenCL
    no... they said it might be possible some time ago, someone else saw that and decided that means they are working on it now and it should be done soon. charlie style journalism for nvidia.

    gpu physx is just a perk for people who own nvidia cards... nothing more.
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    I don't think it so much technically impossible as financially stupid.

    Nvidia would never want to degrade their GPU to physX processing unit while a AMD GPU does the real work. Its bad for the company brand. Additionally pretty much every one, in the world besides an AMD fanboy, has an NV card. So basically it would not garner any additional NV sales because most people would be just reusing old cards.

    It would just be an incentive for current NV card owners to jump ship to AMD.

    PhysX is important to them because it's one of the advantages of owning an NV card over an AMD card in a very competitive market. Even when performance is equal, NV has physX. In addition why provide the man hours to support driver implementation which would just help the competition? People might want NV just out of the goodness of their hearts to open up PhysX a little more, but NV paids well over a hundred million dollars for PhysX. They are not going to make a return on investment selling licencing kits while supporting your competition.

    NV doesn't need to worry about the FTC either because NV vs ATi is not close to a monopoly like AMD vs Intel.

    NV is not a charity it is a business.
    Last edited by tajoh111; 05-05-2010 at 02:53 PM.
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  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mechanical Man View Post
    You american guys should sue nVidia as group sue thingy. Reason constant lieing to comsumer.
    It doesn't really matter because PhysX is trash but the best thing to do is vote with your wallet. They'll add support pretty quick if they don't have any market share.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RVWinkle View Post
    It doesn't really matter because PhysX is trash but the best thing to do is vote with your wallet. They'll add support pretty quick if they don't have any market share.
    I don't think they will. They would rather let it die than ad support. Agiea wasn't doing exactly well in the PhysX GPU business.

    If the PHYSX portion of the company cost more to run than what its worth, they would rather let it die. Companies have done it before.

    Honestly the biggest thing stopping PhysX implementation is NV has not given enough financial incentives to programmers to use it. Havoc just makes more sense because your not ignoring any market. Unless your paid to, why use PhysX.

    However what people may say about NV and apple, they know how to run a business a whole lot better than AMD. They are both companies that are able to stabilize a marketshare when they don't have a product worth a damn, and pick it up like crazy when they do have a good product. The same cannot be said of AMD.
    Last edited by tajoh111; 05-05-2010 at 03:14 PM.
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  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajoh111 View Post
    I don't think they will. They would rather let it die than ad support. Agiea wasn't doing exactly well in the PhysX GPU business.

    If the PHYSX portion of the company cost more to run than what its worth, they would rather let it die. Companies have done it before.
    i dont see it dieing until at least the ut4 engine is out. as of now its an easy way to make a game have NV only stuff when the sponsor something.

    i really dont like hardware companies buying api companies, that goes for NV or intel or amd (amd dosnt own any now but i would not like them to buy one.) to turn the tables on this what if intel only let havoc work on 1 thread for amd and via chips, that wouldent fly they would instantly get sued and this is the same thing
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    Quote Originally Posted by zanzabar View Post
    i dont see it dieing until at least the ut4 engine is out. as of now its an easy way to make a game have NV only stuff when the sponsor something.

    i really dont like hardware companies buying api companies, that goes for NV or intel or amd (amd dosnt own any now but i would not like them to buy one.) to turn the tables on this what if intel only let havoc work on 1 thread for amd and via chips, that wouldent fly they would instantly get sued and this is the same thing
    Its not the same thing because Intel has a monopoly, NV doesn't close to. AND with the current NV lineup, NV needs as many advantages it can get to stay competitive with AMD, in both taking home the money and stabilizing its current marketshare.
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  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajoh111 View Post
    Its not the same thing because Intel has a monopoly, NV doesn't close to. AND with the current NV lineup, NV needs as many advantages it can get to stay competitive with AMD, in both taking home the money and stabilizing its current marketshare.
    why dose it matter if they are a monopoly (or close to it) they have a product thats directly compatible and they are placing a restriction in this fictional example this is the same thing with NV and its anti competative behavior

    if NV didnt say that it would work but it did and said that it is not supported, like xfire on an evga x58 or p55 board that would be one thing but blocking it when the products are doing completely unrelated operations and having it support rendering from identical values that u would get from the cpu
    Last edited by zanzabar; 05-05-2010 at 03:24 PM.
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  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katanai View Post
    For example, physx may work now with the current ATI cards and drivers. But what if, let's say, a new ATI driver or card breaks this compatibility. What should Nvidia do then? Invest money and time to fix something their main competitor broke?
    This cuts to the heart of the matter..

    It's not a matter of technical unfeasability, but whether Nvidia should support a competitor's hardware using their own money and resources.

    People don't understand that PhysX and video card drivers undergo lots of testing and validation before release. Supporting ATI's hardware would mean they would need to double their commitment and investment by making drivers specifically for their competitor's hardware, and then keeping pace with the release of new ATI drivers and hardware..

    Why should Nvidia burden themselves with this?
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    with their existing drivers that check device ID it is impossible for another vendor's HW to be present and run physx so technically they are correct even if it is an artificial limitation.

    its pretty clear what the purpose of gpu accelerated physx is. it gives nvidia an advantage by having a feature that runs exclusively on their hardware. they dont want it to run on ATi HW and its not in ATi's best interest to run gpu physx simply because of its original purpose and the fact that their competitor, nvidia, controls it. its not just marketing even if it lacks substance (just like a lot of advertisements) and the software behind physx isnt bad either. its just that it has been poorly integrated into games like a lot of other features. in the end it was probably a bad idea for nvidia to buy agea and invest in physx. software is not meant to be run on one company's hardware.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Katanai View Post
    You can look at it in another way. PhysX is free, Nvidia doesn't charge anything for it. You can look at it as a gift to their loyal customers.

    Except that it ain't free. You need another Nv card.

    Some "gift".

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    Bah..Let Nvidia go on paying developers $$$ to use physX. Then a time comes when Nvidia realises that the $$$ they pay isnt offset by increased sales of their GPU's, because the majority of the customers think its crap. Maybe we will have better openCL/other open source api adoption from that day on

    Just have a look at Just cause 2. A 5870 stomps a GTX480 in performance, BUT Nvidia decided to pay them $$$ to make sure that Bokeh filter and the GPU Water Simulation runs on their GPU's and none other, whereas it could easily have been implemented for both camps GPU's. Eventually, the gamers lose. Quite sad really
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    Quote Originally Posted by aztec View Post
    Except that it ain't free. You need another Nv card.

    Some "gift".
    Wrong. You can run PhysX on one card only if it's powerful enough...ie a GTX 285/470/480 etc.
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    I'm surprised that no one has said it yet so I will, " Phys-x".
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carfax View Post
    This cuts to the heart of the matter..

    It's not a matter of technical unfeasability, but whether Nvidia should support a competitor's hardware using their own money and resources.

    People don't understand that PhysX and video card drivers undergo lots of testing and validation before release. Supporting ATI's hardware would mean they would need to double their commitment and investment by making drivers specifically for their competitor's hardware, and then keeping pace with the release of new ATI drivers and hardware..

    Why should Nvidia burden themselves with this?
    And that point has already been answered with a plausible solution that NV does not have to.

    There are many times that Officially supported is used to mean that if it works unofficially then so be it, but if it does not then there is no obligation to fix it in unofficial circumstances & you see that with allot of software & games with what OS version is Officially supported, but they don't deliberately block it from installing because its not on the official OS list.

    I have more games & software ruining on Windows 7 64bit that are not Officially supported than ones that are.
    So that excuse is void.
    Last edited by Final8ty; 05-05-2010 at 05:34 PM.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajoh111 View Post
    I don't think it so much technically impossible as financially stupid.

    Nvidia would never want to degrade their GPU to physX processing unit while a AMD GPU does the real work. Its bad for the company brand. Additionally pretty much every one, in the world besides an AMD fanboy, has an NV card. So basically it would not garner any additional NV sales because most people would be just reusing old cards.

    It would just be an incentive for current NV card owners to jump ship to AMD.

    PhysX is important to them because it's one of the advantages of owning an NV card over an AMD card in a very competitive market. Even when performance is equal, NV has physX. In addition why provide the man hours to support driver implementation which would just help the competition? People might want NV just out of the goodness of their hearts to open up PhysX a little more, but NV paids well over a hundred million dollars for PhysX. They are not going to make a return on investment selling licencing kits while supporting your competition.

    NV doesn't need to worry about the FTC either because NV vs ATi is not close to a monopoly like AMD vs Intel.

    NV is not a charity it is a business.
    It takes more programming man hours, money & efforts to block & put time-bomb into the software to stop PhysX functioning when a non NV GPU is detected.

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carfax View Post
    This cuts to the heart of the matter..

    It's not a matter of technical unfeasability, but whether Nvidia should support a competitor's hardware using their own money and resources.

    People don't understand that PhysX and video card drivers undergo lots of testing and validation before release. Supporting ATI's hardware would mean they would need to double their commitment and investment by making drivers specifically for their competitor's hardware, and then keeping pace with the release of new ATI drivers and hardware..

    Why should Nvidia burden themselves with this?
    the phsyX driver has nothing to do with the anything but NV's gpu and windows to do the cpu, the phsyX api returns the same values be it on a gpu or cpu. i could see if it did something were it talked directly to the rendering card or assisted it in any way but it isnt gpgpu phsyX is just returning the same values as the cpu would have to the api to feed to the game. its just using cuda so it in no way acts in a way that would be broken with something ati dose unless it would also break the cpu physX and if that were to happen NV would not be responsible anyways.

    your point would be valid if say some1 made physX work on an ati gpu but that isnt happening. phsyX is working on a cpu or NV gpu no matter how u configure it ATM with or without the fix. phsyX also in way dose anything for rendering or image processing it just gives back values to plug into the reference geometry
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    Quote Originally Posted by Final8ty View Post
    There are many times that Officially supported is used to mean that if it works unofficially then so be it, but if it does not then there is no obligation to fix it in unofficial circumstance & you see that with allot of software & games with what OS version is Officially supported, but they don't deliberately block it from installing because its not on the official OS list.

    I have more games ruining on Windows 7 64bit that are not Officially supported than ones that are.
    So that excuse is void.
    Yeah, in a perfect world everything officially compatible works 100% fine...but I'm afraid this is not a perfect world and within the computer world there are tons of incompatibilities. So, whatever NVIDIA is telling about that is crap, pure 100% crap, because no company has the obligation to make everything 100% compatible (and its not) so I wonder why the hell would they mention that BS about compatibility...........
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    Quote Originally Posted by prava View Post
    Yeah, in a perfect world everything officially compatible works 100% fine...but I'm afraid this is not a perfect world and within the computer world there are tons of incompatibilities. So, whatever NVIDIA is telling about that is crap, pure 100% crap, because no company has the obligation to make everything 100% compatible (and its not) so I wonder why the hell would they mention that BS about compatibility...........
    To fool the marketing brainwashed & gullible, imperfect-world indeed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carfax View Post
    Wrong. You can run PhysX on one card only if it's powerful enough...ie a GTX 285/470/480 etc.
    If you want crappy performance, sure.

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    What's interesting is that physx found in games like Shift, etc (which use the CPU) work fine. Yet they make a statement like that. It makes no sense to me as it appears to contradict what they are saying about physx. When you look at the broader picture of it.
    1. Physx will only work if nvidia video card is the primary card
    2. Physx will work with any CPU
    3. Physx will not work if ATI is the primary card and a nv VC is a secondary card.

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  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Final8ty View Post
    It takes more programming man hours, money & efforts to block & put time-bomb into the software to stop PhysX functioning when a non NV GPU is detected.
    Once it is done, it doesn't take much to detect if an NV card is the main card. The only thing that are getting it to work are hacks, which might take a bit of man power to control, but alot less than making sure their are no compatibility issues with competitors hardware.

    Making it work with AMD cards is a more complex issue because it is a driver to a different driver issue. AMD cards have to communicate with NV cards over resources. I would imagine such allocating would be alot easier when NV knows their drivers so well and it is entirely NV hardware.

    Not getting it to work on AMD hardware when it is the primary videocard is simply a matter of detecting if an AMD card is the primary videocard, a very simple task. Simply update the detection for new AMD cards and you don't have something that takes much work.

    PhysX only value to Nvidia is a marketing tool and when you allow the competitors to use that exclusive feature, then you have something that is lower than worthless, as it cost money to run and you are just helping out the competition.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eastcoasthandle View Post
    What's interesting is that physx found in games like Shift, etc (which use the CPU) work fine. Yet they make a statement like that. It makes no sense to me as it appears to contradict what they are saying about physx. When you look at the broader picture of it.
    1. Physx will only work if nvidia video card is the primary card
    2. Physx will work with any CPU
    3. Physx will not work if ATI is the primary card and a nv VC is a secondary card.

    so, is it possible to setup gtx480 (primary card) and HD5970 as secondary?
    will it bottleneck?

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