The Fermi Thread - Part 3

[FischOderAal]

Your posts are (in general) good reads Deimos. Either full of information, full of teh lolz (not in a negative way!) or both

[weston]

since when did all of the 200 series reach eol?

They've been EOL for quite a while now, try to find a GTX 275 in stores...

the only one left is the 285 for a ridiculous $375 which is close to the 5870. How much longer do we have to wait!!?!?!?!?

5 price brackets. 2 years. 5 products. 1 chip = whole lotta slackers

Don't forget about the G92 which is still goin strong in the low end, but can't really compete with ATI anymore in price. I think the G92 will never go EOL...just keep puttin them out

[GoldenTiger]

If it is true at anything less than 1920x1200 8xAA very high settings, I'll be impressed. Otherwise Again we've already seen the leaks with the 470 pulling ahead at 25600x1600 4-8xAA but clearly this is a biased scenario as half the time the game wasnt playble (or just barely) on either card despite the extra video memory ( in other words 10%+ crap still is crap ) I don't have many doubts that the 470 will do better at 25600x1600 on average however I still think it won't be enough as this resolution is really multi gpu territory (unless one stays clear of current titles anyways ). I don't see the point pairing a ultra highend display with a non ultra highend gpu setup ( not to say 5870/470s aren't highend, they just aren't ultra high end solutions )

2560x1600 is not some mythical unicorn that no one runs with on modern games. It's 100% a good resolution to test in especially since it pushes the GPU and not the CPU in a test. Hardly biased since most people with these kinds of cards would be running it regardless. Battlefield Bad Company 2, which I didn't have issues with my 5870 with, was running pretty well (45-50fps most of the time) at 2560x1600 4x AA. A 20%-25% boost on that from a 480 would put it into the nicely playable territory (57-63fps). It's a brand new DX11 game we're talking about as well: same thing with games like Warhammer Online (another current MMO) where it's close to being playable but just dips and is a bit too low on average to really enjoy. Need For Speed Shift, same story really... 45-50fps on the 5870 when not encountering the issues from hitting other objects...

In short, if the 470 is 10% faster at those settings, then we can probably safely say a 480 would be 25%, and thus extremely attractive to high-end gamers. I disagree with you that 2560x1600 would be a rarity for people buying one to two $500 videocards. I'd think most people dropping that much cash on cards ($500-1k or so for a setup) would definitely have already bought the $750-1000 monitor to really show them off with since monitors last several years generally whereas a top-end card lasts 6-8 months as high-end.

I got my Dell 30" widescreen 3007WFP-HC 2560x1600 LCD for $750 shipped (refurb, pristine condition) with a 5-year warranty from them. You can find similar ones new for $1100-1200. What you describe is like buying a super-highend projector and then using it at 40" screen with a measly $100 home theatre in box setup: no one does it. They run 75-100" or more screens and get nice bookshelf or tower speakers to make the setup actually shine. There's little-to-no point in buying crossfire 5870's, a 5970, SLI 470's or 480's just to run them at 1920x1080 or 1680x1050, and I doubt most people do. It's overkill.

[alcachofa]

...There's little-to-no point in buying crossfire 5870's, a 5970, SLI 470's or 480's just to run them at 1920x1080 or 1680x1050, and I doubt most people do. It's overkill.

Definitely, but there is an exception with NV cards : 3D Vision.

[Musho]

Definitely, but there is an exception with NV cards : 3D Vision.

And don't forget eyefinity! That requires quite a bit of horsepower

[***Deimos***]

They've been EOL for quite a while now, try to find a GTX 275 in stores...

the only one left is the 285 for a ridiculous $375 which is close to the 5870. How much longer do we have to wait!!?!?!?!?



Don't forget about the G92 which is still goin strong in the low end, but can't really compete with ATI anymore in price. I think the G92 will never go EOL...just keep puttin them out

I can only think of 9, maybe 11 G92 products... (GT330 is probably that 40nm chip)

	The Life of Jeremy Bentham 	
Nov-10	8800 GT	
Dec-07	8800 GTS 512MB	
Jan-08	8800 GS	
Mar-08	9800GX2	
Apr-08	9800 GTX	
May-08	9600 GSO	
Jul-08	9800 GTX+	9800 GT
Mar-09	GTS150	GTS250
Feb-10	GT330?

April 2010 - the all new, super uber cool, GTS450 (Iron Man2 edition) - c'mon nVidia, no need to hide those PR slides, we ALL knew another G92 was coming.

We all had a good ride.. now its time to take old Yeller out back with the shotgun. Common, old boy, dont stare at me with those big round puppy eyes - ugh I cant do it - ok ok this is last and final year, I promise

[weston]

I can only think of 9, maybe 11 G92 products... (GT330 is probably that 40nm chip)

	The Life of Jeremy Bentham 	
Nov-10	8800 GT	
Dec-07	8800 GTS 512MB	
Jan-08	8800 GS	
Mar-08	9800GX2	
Apr-08	9800 GTX	
May-08	9600 GSO	
Jul-08	9800 GTX+	9800 GT
Mar-09	GTS150	GTS250
Feb-10	GT330?

April 2010 - the all new, super uber cool, GTS450 (Iron Man2 edition) - c'mon nVidia, no need to hide those PR slides, we ALL knew another G92 was coming.

We all had a good ride.. now its time to take old Yeller out back with the shotgun. Common, old boy, dont stare at me with those big round puppy eyes - ugh I cant do it - ok ok this is last and final year, I promise

LOL you are a shining light of humor in this endlessly repetitive thread! keep it up

[Sn0wm@n]

I can only think of 9, maybe 11 G92 products... (GT330 is probably that 40nm chip)

	The Life of Jeremy Bentham 	
Nov-10	8800 GT	
Dec-07	8800 GTS 512MB	
Jan-08	8800 GS	
Mar-08	9800GX2	
Apr-08	9800 GTX	
May-08	9600 GSO	
Jul-08	9800 GTX+	9800 GT
Mar-09	GTS150	GTS250
Feb-10	GT330?

April 2010 - the all new, super uber cool, GTS450 (Iron Man2 edition) - c'mon nVidia, no need to hide those PR slides, we ALL knew another G92 was coming.

We all had a good ride.. now its time to take old Yeller out back with the shotgun. Common, old boy, dont stare at me with those big round puppy eyes - ugh I cant do it - ok ok this is last and final year, I promise

LOL and another good ol rebrand demanded by the oem ..... sure ... ty nvidia .... ty

[GoldenTiger]

And don't forget eyefinity! That requires quite a bit of horsepower

Same argument stands: No one's going to run eyefinity with a total resolution of 1680x1050 pixels or 1920x1080 pixels are they ?

[GoldenTiger]

I can only think of 9, maybe 11 G92 products... (GT330 is probably that 40nm chip)

	The Life of Jeremy Bentham 	
Nov-10	8800 GT	
Dec-07	8800 GTS 512MB	
Jan-08	8800 GS	
Mar-08	9800GX2	
Apr-08	9800 GTX	
May-08	9600 GSO	
Jul-08	9800 GTX+	9800 GT
Mar-09	GTS150	GTS250
Feb-10	GT330?

April 2010 - the all new, super uber cool, GTS450 (Iron Man2 edition) - c'mon nVidia, no need to hide those PR slides, we ALL knew another G92 was coming.

We all had a good ride.. now its time to take old Yeller out back with the shotgun. Common, old boy, dont stare at me with those big round puppy eyes - ugh I cant do it - ok ok this is last and final year, I promise

LOL. 9600 GSO had two versions that were fairly different products as well: a 96sp version with 192/384-bit bus width based on 384mb or 768mb of RAM, and a 48sp version with 256-bit bus.

[cegras]

You're missing the overall point - which is what many people do when they are backed into the corner by a sound argument supported by facts.

[Chumbucket843]

well if deimos could clarify his original point that would help. are you talking about rebrands or just different sku's based off of g92? there is a difference all you have to do is look

9800gtx

gt330

g92 was a great architecture, nvidia just cant get enough of it, the consumers might have a different opinion.

[Sn0wm@n]

G92 will never die ....

[Chickenfeed]

2560x1600 is not some mythical unicorn that no one runs with on modern games. It's 100% a good resolution to test in especially since it pushes the GPU and not the CPU in a test. Hardly biased since most people with these kinds of cards would be running it regardless. Battlefield Bad Company 2, which I didn't have issues with my 5870 with, was running pretty well (45-50fps most of the time) at 2560x1600 4x AA. A 20%-25% boost on that from a 480 would put it into the nicely playable territory (57-63fps). It's a brand new DX11 game we're talking about as well: same thing with games like Warhammer Online (another current MMO) where it's close to being playable but just dips and is a bit too low on average to really enjoy. Need For Speed Shift, same story really... 45-50fps on the 5870 when not encountering the issues from hitting other objects...

In short, if the 470 is 10% faster at those settings, then we can probably safely say a 480 would be 25%, and thus extremely attractive to high-end gamers. I disagree with you that 2560x1600 would be a rarity for people buying one to two $500 videocards. I'd think most people dropping that much cash on cards ($500-1k or so for a setup) would definitely have already bought the $750-1000 monitor to really show them off with since monitors last several years generally whereas a top-end card lasts 6-8 months as high-end.

I got my Dell 30" widescreen 3007WFP-HC 2560x1600 LCD for $750 shipped (refurb, pristine condition) with a 5-year warranty from them. You can find similar ones new for $1100-1200. What you describe is like buying a super-highend projector and then using it at 40" screen with a measly $100 home theatre in box setup: no one does it. They run 75-100" or more screens and get nice bookshelf or tower speakers to make the setup actually shine. There's little-to-no point in buying crossfire 5870's, a 5970, SLI 470's or 480's just to run them at 1920x1080 or 1680x1050, and I doubt most people do. It's overkill.

You *completely* missed my point...

I clearly said it isn't realistic to expect to run 2560x1600 fluently with a single video card. It is multi gpu grounds. I also said the majoirty of people who do shell out the cash on a displays like this are likely going to do it justice with a adequte system ( assuming it is being used for gaming purposes ). No where did I say 30" LCDs are rare, merely that expecting to tame games at 2560x1600 with reasonable IQ is unrealistic. A single 4870 didn't even last a year running stuff at 1920x1200. I don't expect the 5870 to be any different ( I already find its performance to be lacking in some games, even without anti aliasing ) I suppose it does depends on ones defintion of playability but in my eyes most things aren't playable at 2560x1600 with the currently available single gpu cards (and before you comment I've put a 5870, 5970 and GTX295 through their paces on a 30" display). The fact remains 30" LCDs are the ultra high end. I'm willing to bet more multi gpu users run 22-24" 1080/1200 displays for that matter...

[Sushi Warrior]

Well, Deimos and the red camp are sure having fun trolling this thread....

[highoctane]

I'm not sure what some of you consider fluid and playable but I find a majority of games I have very playable at 2560x1600 with a lowly 260 with 2-4x aa details generally as high as they can be set without issue.

It seems there is too much bench/graph comparing going without enough actual hands on time in the real world or something.

[mindfury]

很夸张,整机466W显卡满载功耗,以前HD5870测试的时候是33xW,也就是说两者差了将近130W ,但是两家官方PPT里的TDP又是多少呢?HD5870为188W TDP,某卡为250W TDP,是谁再撒谎?
至于温度,满载1分钟不到飙升到98度,随后风扇开始提速,温度逐渐下降一直到92度,之后再也没有发生变 化.(室内温度20度)
nApoleon 发表于 2010-3-23 09:14

GTX480 machine power consumption at full load is nearly 130W more than HD5870 machine，full load temperature is 92℃.

[tbone8ty]

http://www.nordichardware.com/en/com...e-gtx-480.html

gtx480 and 5970 side my side

[***Deimos***]

well if deimos could clarify his original point that would help. are you talking about rebrands or just different sku's based off of g92? there is a difference all you have to do is look

I think the pattern is fairly obvious. All except probaby GT330, use "G92 and/or G92b".. ie the same chip.

Is 8800GS a rebrand? 9800GX2? I guess you could say GTS250 is a rebrand, but it has different PCB, memory, heatsink. box!! etc.

=============

G200 eol a good thing?
Imagine you bought a GTX275 or worse, a GTX295 yesterday. Week later, your "investment" resembles those GM stocks you thought would be a good idea.

============

Those arguing not to worry if nVidia loses money on GTX470.
So how do they recuperate several $100m of R&D expense?
Uber super cool and brand new DX10 G92 products?
Those high margin non-existent DX11 cards that haven't launched?
Perhaps the millions of Tesla products you see every teen in school buying?

What is my point?

GTX 280 launced with MSRP of $650. Because of AMD's 4870, it was reduced a week later to $500. Lets pretend board has fixed cost of $300. That's difference of $350 vs $200 for profit... or almost half as much.

Fastforward a 2 years later, and nVidia is still hasn't learned. Boards and chips are bigger, hotter and more expensive to make.

Everything else being equal, consumers would probably buy:
- cooler/lower-power product
- higher performance
- nVidia if it still represents great brand name image - questionable?

So, you can't just say 10% higher performance, so we'll make MSRP 10% higher - need to factor in cons of power/heat/availability. Things would be rosy if a 384 bit board, 50% more DRAM chips, and 50% bigger die with low yields only added 10% more to costs. Very likely a lot lot more.

With 0 competition, AMD has sold millions of DX11 products and made mucho $$$. nVidia is at $0.00 And, people who already own a DX11 card, are unlikely to "upgrade".

So, just like AMD with Phenom(1), how do you sell the product?:
- lower price? -> temporary gain in marketshare at expense of less profits.
- lower power? -> trouble enough as it is getting working dies
- higher clocks? -> power is already very high
- lower costs? -> would you buy more expensive 768MB card? What if "some assembly required"?
- PhysX marketing? -> trouble is, its nothing new since all GF8/9/200 have it.
- DX11 promotion? -> sucks you spent last 6 months saying its not a big deal.
- CUDA GPGPU apps? -> its nice bonus. People don't buy $500 video cards to accelerate their Adobe PDF Reader.
- EyeInfinity? -> Don't got none.

The desperate "solution" is the same as it was in fx era... its the only thing you can really change...
questionable driver optimizations at the expense of rendering quality and driver stability.

Ofcourse like G80, about a year later they're gonna have a 32/28nm 448SP 256bit 1GB GDDR5 board. They're gonna call it "480GT"

[Sn0wm@n]

Well, Deimos and the red camp are sure having fun trolling this thread....

so its trolling when you say the obvious about how much fail nvidia is making right now ????

[mapel110]

so its trolling when you say the obvious about how much fail nvidia is making right now ????

Where is the Link to the obvious fail?

[hurleybird]

So that metal part on top IS a part of the heatsink... interesting.

Gotta give kudos to the team that designed that thing, they certainly were creative with shoving as much heatsink onto the pcb as possible!

[reueljoab]

Where is the Link to the obvious fail?

do you still need a link to know that fermi is six months delayed?

[annihilat0r]

so its trolling when you say the obvious about how much fail nvidia is making right now ????

Apparently Nvidia is making less fail than AMD right now - being able to post profits and all without Intel having to give you several billions of dollars.

[highoctane]

Fastforward a 2 years later, and nVidia is still hasn't learned. Boards and chips are bigger, hotter and more expensive to make.

How is this different from ATI when compared to their previous gen, the boards and chips are bigger, hotter and of course more expensive to make as well.

With 0 competition, AMD has sold millions of DX11 products and made mucho $$$. nVidia is at $0.00 And, people who already own a DX11 card, are unlikely to "upgrade".

As far as dx11 sure but obviously with the inventory shortages at etailers that is a clear indicator nvidia have managed to sell off inventory easily even in light of ATI's dx11 & performance advantage.

I think you're blowing the desperation of the market out of proportion, graphics cards don't sell to the masses like iphones or something. Just because DX11 or newer faster hardware is released the majority of users aren't running out and buying new hardware simply because there is new hardware released, not everybody lives on the bleeding edge of tech.

And if you're worried that the card you bought today may be obsolete a month later when a new model comes out well you need a new hobby. We all know there is new hardware always around the corner and if you don't time your purchase early in the cycle your hardware will be superseded sooner or possibly the same day you make your purchase.