Radeon 5970 Overclocking: The VRM Temperature Bottleneck

[safan80]

the 295 has no thermal problems though, in the dual or single PCB version.

Mine idles at 45C and never goes above 75C even after 4hrs of Crysis.

Is this at stock, or have you tried to overclock it?

[Calmatory]

Anandtech is wrong. I have been reading the XS forums lately and no one talked about the possibility of AMD actually doing something wrong. Those who kinda mumbled it were silenced by the masses. Therefore, there is no problem with the thermal design of 5970's.

Thats quite much correct. AMD is doing good stuff while Nvidia is slipping badly. But you still put your faith on the pitiful one. You're a fool!

[Kondik]

Is this at stock, or have you tried to overclock it?

EVGA Stock 576/1008 -> OC'd to 652/1100 peaks at 76 ~ 77 , never saw it over 80. It folds, Grids, and runs Games

Is the newer Single PCB one. The Oldschool Sammwich I had from ASUS 295peaked at 83 , 85 Max.

[STEvil]

the 5970 doesnt have thermal issues either at stock..

It runs over 80c at stock, thats thermal problems as far as i'm concerned.



Considering nobody here is mentioning how ambient temperatures or fan speed play a role in stability (other than the article) this thread is pretty much moot..

[tajoh111]

Thats quite much correct. AMD is doing good stuff while Nvidia is slipping badly. But you still put your faith on the pitiful one. You're a fool!

If you look at anhilators posts, they are generally quite neutral. I don't thinks its a matter of putting faith particularly in nvidia. Its that the general attitude is Nvidia is bad, ATI/AMD is good.

E.g underbuilt VRM, terrible quanities, AMD officially raising prices(on the 5870, 5970 and 5950) and using slag marketing tactics and on this forum, they are praised for it or don't under go criticism.

And if a criticism is valid, it somehow gets turned into not their fault or the blame is put on someone else. E.g it works fine under stock settings or games are that stressful in real situations(even those it is marketed to be an overclocked card or future games may prove otherwise), Its TSMC fault(they should have stockpiled longer), the markets calls for price increases(although it has never ever happened before), using slag marketing tactics(this one NV gets called y and some sarcastic comment about whoop ass; when AMD does it cool and everyone laughs at NV).

NV on the other hand does anything and they are reamed out to kingdom come. Some people who have generally a pretty good attitude in general towards both companys like SKYMTL, are criticized for being anti AMD, when its pretty obvious from their comments of past and their reviews that they are not.

This board has turned so pro-AMD, Anti NV that the news section has turned into flame-opulous. Some people even wished death(or joked about it), on Jen Huang, which is Ridiculously over the top or NV to go out of business. It was never this bad before and it started really when AMD started making a comeback. If you look at when the zero tolerance for flaming came into effect it was when AMD videocards became good again.

[NaMcO]

QFT. Sick of AMD babysitters.

[Lightman]

Originally Posted by Devon Nekechuck, product manager
So the really cool thing about the HD5970, is that not only is it the fastets graphics card in the world, but its also an extreme overclocker.

We designed alot of headroom into both the board and some special software features, to allow the end user and enthusiasts to really push this ting to the limits.

From this promotion video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUn5qkF3tjY

Let me translate:
1. extreme overclocker - how many HD5970 can't reach 1GHz with proper cooling?
2. alot of headroom into both the board - there is a difference between board (PCB and components) and card (whole package); I think that board which can reach 1GHz+ from stock 725MHz and allows voltage tweak on two GPU's is a great achievement! We are talking about 500W+ power consumption when OC'ed....
3. some special software features - Overdrive limits are much higher than previous cards + board partners are free to include voltage tweak.

There is not a single mention of cooling solution.
People will always complain, it's not enough that board is designed to take the beating of running cores @1GHz, people want cooler to be up to the job as well! It's like buying Toyota Supra and turbo charge it to 1000BHP and then complaining that breaks are not up to the job and blaming Toyota for it

Besides, let your wallets do the talking!

[InCredible]

It runs over 80c at stock, thats thermal problems as far as i'm concerned.



Considering nobody here is mentioning how ambient temperatures or fan speed play a role in stability (other than the article) this thread is pretty much moot..

but your concern and whats ok for the card is two different things..
the 4870x2 reaches upwards of 90c..which is probably to much for ur concern..however the card performs problem free at those temps...im sure amd knows just a little bit more about this then us? just an assumption

[InCredible]

overclock[/I], rather than stock, I don't disagree with you. Some people are arguing about ATI's advertising of it as an overclocker, I'm not. I didn't expect it to overclock without a better cooling solution.
.

one thing i didnt take into account is 24/7 gpu crunching and ...now like mentioned in my last post above..the 4870x2 hit 90c while gaming..probably while crunching as well...did it die in 6-12 months? im not making a point cause i dont know..just asking out of curiosity...if it did..then id say yea we can assume the 5970 would probably follow suit..however if it didnt...well...same thing itll probably follow suit..but im not sure of this since i dont crunch

[mikeyakame]

Let me translate:
1. extreme overclocker - how many HD5970 can't reach 1GHz with proper cooling?
2. alot of headroom into both the board - there is a difference between board (PCB and components) and card (whole package); I think that board which can reach 1GHz+ from stock 725MHz and allows voltage tweak on two GPU's is a great achievement! We are talking about 500W+ power consumption when OC'ed....
3. some special software features - Overdrive limits are much higher than previous cards + board partners are free to include voltage tweak.

There is not a single mention of cooling solution.
People will always complain, it's not enough that board is designed to take the beating of running cores @1GHz, people want cooler to be up to the job as well! It's like buying Toyota Supra and turbo charge it to 1000BHP and then complaining that breaks are not up to the job and blaming Toyota for it

Besides, let your wallets do the talking!

Toyota aren't careless enough to tell their customers to bleed off internal wastegate input lines (and provide Y fittings for a common control line to both turbos) to increase the turbo output to 1.5bar (~22-23psi) and beyond at the manifold. On top of that they definitely don't recommend doing it using the undersized OE intercooler it ships with either.

As a matter of fact they wouldn't even hint at it, they know what the end result is if they were to do this. Warranty repair costs would have gone nuts. Toyota did provide an overengineered near-bulletproof engine though which will definitely take ~1000hp with the right turbo/s, ECU, etc.

The problem with using the Supra RZ in your example was that the 2JZ-GTE engine and the ATI 5970 have nothing in common, except that they both cost a lot One is extremely over-engineered and the other is borderline under-engineered.

Point is you don't tell a customer they can thrash a product if your product isn't upto scratch, and then you don't defend a product that was sold to be thrashed that fails under the pressure of said thrashing. Yes some people go overboard but stock cooling or not, what have ATI have touted their card can do clearly doesn't have the engineering to do it under conditions that some users will have for it.

What these other lads are trying to say is, you can't sell a product for overclocking (thrashing), tout it is for overclocking (thrashing) then say well it failed or is failing due to thrashing but thats acceptable because certain types of thrashing thrash too much so it's the users fault not the designs fault. You can twist words as much as you like, but thrashing is thrashing, overclocking is overclocking, and much like an engine if you push it and it fails when it shouldn't have it's the fault of the design. If you run said engine without oil and it fails then you're an idiot, just like if you run a 5970 in 50c+ ambient heat covered in dust and it fails then you're also an idiot. Engineers can't over-engineer for stupidity but power virus or not (furmark, etc) these are covered by the same thrashing as overclocking so if the card fails or faults, then its a poor design simple as that.

[eXa]

And the cooler IS a part of the card....

But dont get me wrong, i just found some quick example of ATI advertising the card as a overclocker. I dont run any gfx card with stock cooling anyways (or cpu) so it doesnt matter much for me.

[postumus]

If you look at anhilators posts, they are generally quite neutral. I don't thinks its a matter of putting faith particularly in nvidia. Its that the general attitude is Nvidia is bad, ATI/AMD is good.

E.g underbuilt VRM, terrible quanities, AMD officially raising prices(on the 5870, 5970 and 5950) and using slag marketing tactics and on this forum, they are praised for it or don't under go criticism.

And if a criticism is valid, it somehow gets turned into not their fault or the blame is put on someone else. E.g it works fine under stock settings or games are that stressful in real situations(even those it is marketed to be an overclocked card or future games may prove otherwise), Its TSMC fault(they should have stockpiled longer), the markets calls for price increases(although it has never ever happened before), using slag marketing tactics(this one NV gets called y and some sarcastic comment about whoop ass; when AMD does it cool and everyone laughs at NV).

NV on the other hand does anything and they are reamed out to kingdom come. Some people who have generally a pretty good attitude in general towards both companys like SKYMTL, are criticized for being anti AMD, when its pretty obvious from their comments of past and their reviews that they are not.

This board has turned so pro-AMD, Anti NV that the news section has turned into flame-opulous. Some people even wished death(or joked about it), on Jen Huang, which is Ridiculously over the top or NV to go out of business. It was never this bad before and it started really when AMD started making a comeback. If you look at when the zero tolerance for flaming came into effect it was when AMD videocards became good again.

Well why not take that a step further and analyze why it is many ppl appear to have thrown their weight behind AMD? What has either company done that seems to have created a pro AMD "bias".

1. AMD has had the better price/performance cards, their 4870 rocked the prices of the GTX 200 series and made them much more attainable.

2. AMD has pushed for open standards such as DX10.1 and DX11, it's in their interest to do so b/c they have a smaller slice of the market. But I think most ppl here prefer open standards so they can simply buy the best card for them and still enjoy all the features.

3. AMD has been the first to GDDR5, 40nm, DX 10.1 DX 11 etc, ie they're innovating.

4. NV has closed off Physx and turned it into a marketing tool, they've even blocked the PPU from working with AMD cards, shafting anyone that purchsed for use when it was GPU neutral. It's been shown time and again that with hacked drivers it can work and is reliable. Depening on your view Batman AA's AA falls under here too.

5. Rebranding, Rebranding, Rebranding. I don't think I have to get into this.

6. Stalling innovation/adoption of new standards, ie DX 10.1 in AC.

So instead of crying about how ppl appear to have developed a pro AMD bias, why not analyze why it has come about; what NV can do it to change it, assuming they care to.

[annihilat0r]

Thats quite much correct. AMD is doing good stuff while Nvidia is slipping badly. But you still put your faith on the pitiful one. You're a fool!

But of course. I mean, if Nvidia is quite behind AMD at the moment, this means there can be absolutely nothing AMD is doing wrong. For example, if there was indeed an issue with the thermal design of 5970 VRM's, Nvidia would certainly jump at the opportunity and gain the upper hand in 3 days.

The very fact that AMD is doing better than Nvidia proves for itself that they are doing EVERYTHING right, while Nvidia is doing EVERYTHING wrong.

[LedHed]

Is this at stock, or have you tried to overclock it?

that is at 1050mV and the clocks in my profile, but I will admit I have custom fan profiles for the card to keep those temperatures using RivaTuner.

and all this talk about how ATI is innovating and original why NVIDIA isn't is just customer bias. If no one remembers let me remind you, when the new 5870 came out NVIDIA still had the fastest card over a year after it was released (295) not until the 5970 hit the market (in very very small quantities) could AMD claim the performance crown back. So it appears NVIDIA is sticking to their guns/architecture rather than trying every new standard available to try and catch up (like AMD with the 4 Series). It took AMD a full 13 months (even w/ GDDR5/DX10.1/DX11) after the 295 was launched to catch up with it. Let me go ahead and avoid the fanboy comment by noting the 295 was the fastest video card in the world up until the 5970, me owning one has nothing to do with this fact.

So it appears to me NVIDIA was sticking with a very solid design and using it as a placeholder until the GT300 is ready for the masses, seems like a very good idea to me instead of rushing a product simply for profits in a non-competitive market (DX11). If any ATI fan boys would read about the GT300/Fermi they would see it is a completely new approach to GPUs and is by far more innovative than anything ATI has done in the last few years.

[Lightman]

@mikeyakame

You like good cars

But your wording about HD5970 and failing under OC is harsh. It's not failing only throttling

[InCredible]

and all this talk about how ATI is innovating and original why NVIDIA isn't is just customer bias. If no one remembers let me remind you, when the new 5870 came out NVIDIA still had the fastest card over a year after it was released (295) not until the 5970 hit the market (in very very small quantities) could AMD claim the performance crown back. So it appears NVIDIA is sticking to their guns/architecture rather than trying every new standard available to try and catch up (like AMD with the 4 Series). It took AMD a full 13 months (even w/ GDDR5/DX10.1/DX11) after the 295 was launched to catch up with it. Let me go ahead and avoid the fanboy comment by noting the 295 was the fastest video card in the world up until the 5970, me owning one has nothing to do with this fact.

So it appears to me NVIDIA was sticking with a very solid design and using it as a placeholder until the GT300 is ready for the masses, seems like a very good idea to me instead of rushing a product simply for profits in a non-competitive market (DX11). If any ATI fan boys would read about the GT300/Fermi they would see it is a completely new approach to GPUs and is by far more innovative than anything ATI has done in the last few years.

ill agree with you on some things here...the 295 was the fastest card up until this past month..however it wasnt the best overall card out..the 5870 was..and competed VERY well against a 295..

fermi is a lot of speculation and until it comes out..you can only hope itll live up to the expectations.

also another thing ati has done is become VERY powerful while keeping power consumption down a lot...i mean the 5970 quite a bit faster but uses around the same power...thats AMAZING in it self..also they brought eyefinity which is great as well..

another thing..13 months??? where did u get that from..if im not mistaken..didnt it launch in Jan 09??? and was best up until Nov 09...
im not a wiz with numbers but that doesnt look like a year in between those two dates..
and before that for 5 months ati had the crown..
so it was like 5 months ati 9-10 months nvidia back to ati until atleast march if fermi reveals its goodies by then ...which will probably be a single gpu..might not beat the 5970 even then..

as far as sticking with their arch..i guess u cant be MAD at them for it..but i wouldnt care to buy a product that is rebranded..that would upset me vs buying something new...but i guess u can praise them for that idk?

[D749]

I'm enjoying this thread.

I stick to the hardware and not the company behind the hardware - at least for the most part. ATI did a great job with the 4xxx series in terms of hardware and pricing so I bought an 4870x2. Nvidia has the best physics solution so I recently bought an Nvidia card for physics processing. Currently ATI has the best graphic cards out so if I want a new video card today it will be an ATI. This is just a guess but in 2010 I imagine the next Nvidia card will beat the 5xxx series. By and large it's a cycle.

[Manicdan]

I stick to the hardware and not the company behind the hardware - at least for the most part. ATI did a kickass job with the 4xxx series in terms of hardware and pricing so I bought a 4870x2. Nvidia has the best physics solution so I recently bought an Nvidia card for physics processing. Right now ATI has the best graphic cards out so if I want a new video card today it will be an ATI.

disclaimer*
"today" not guaranteed, possible delays due stock limitations may be experienced

[JoeBar]

Not another ATI vs NV thread...

[D749]

disclaimer*
"today" not guaranteed, possible delays due stock limitations may be experienced

Hehe. Newegg has a few 5870s in stock today.

[Manicdan]

i saw a few 5850s on tiger direct too. for 310$ i almost bit the bullet. too bad i have self control, otherwise i would be broke and happy, instead of on a tight budget and miserable.

[D749]

i saw a few 5850s on tiger direct too. for 310$ i almost bit the bullet. too bad i have self control, otherwise i would be broke and happy, instead of on a tight budget and miserable.

I wish you could have shared some of that control the other day when I bought two new Intel G2 SSDs for a computer that isn't even finished.

[postumus]

The fastest card doesn't = the most innovation. Features like hdmi audio, newer DX standards, Eyefinity, perf per watt, perf per $$$, perf per mm2. By your logic the GTX 280 was miles more innovative than the 4870 and a much bigger success, bc it happened to be slightly faster at much increased cost. The average enthuasist would welcome a small launch of fermi cards, at least we'd all have some numbers and many ppl could decide whether it will be worth waiting for or not. You seem to be suffering from a pretty obvious bias, the 5000 series are selling out for a reason, and AMD is enjoying some degree of success bc of it.

[Manicdan]

the 5000 series are selling out for a reason, and AMD is enjoying some degree of success bc of it.

carefull, i havnt seen a figure of if more 5800/5900s are being sold than high end g200s. would be interesting, even if ATI is selling out, are the selling more?

[InCredible]

^ they might not sell more for obvious reasons..limited stock..however the demand is obviously higher then supply..and hes right..they are selling out for a reason....not everyone would rush out to spend 200-400 on a card for nothing? right....(ok maybe some on accident if you were going from like an 8800gts 512 to a 9800gtx or something hahaha .sorry had to) but on a serious note theres plenty of reasons like he mentioned other then just raw numbers to purchase a 5 series card...they are great and should sell that way..*if supply could meet demand of course*