Just on thing...
Just on thing...
Originally Posted by Farinorco
And why should ATi be working on a patch of that game?
If the game doesn't support AA with ATi cards it's not ATi's fault, but developers fault. They are who program the game, they are the ones who has to provide the features of the game.
If there was a problem of drivers, then it would be a thing on the ATi side, and they should be working to fix it on their drivers. BUT the game doesn't have AA in ATi cards because the UE3 don't have AA, and the developers were too lazy to implement their own custom filter. Ooooops, no. The game doesn't have AA in ATi cards because the developers DID implement it (in colaboration with their official supporters, NVIDIA) and then made a check to not allow running that code if an ATI card is detected on the system.
So what ATI just sits on their A$$ and takes a loss? They can't contact the developers and say hey listen lets get AA working on our hardware? What's the problem with ATI doing that? They too proud to contact the devs and do something about the issue so their customers are just gonna have to accept the fact they cannot natively run AA on the game and will need to find workarounds themselves?
That just sounds like what I mentioned before that it seems ATI didnt care about this IP in the first place so they aren't going to even bother with doing anything proactive about the AA issue.
Again its possible they are saying..."Ok Nvidia u got us this time...we got something for u guys" and are devoting their resources on future IPs. That's the only viable explanation for ATI not contacting the devs to fix the AA issue in Batman IMO unless the devs are saying no to Ati's requests to enable AA in their hardware.
Why bother crying over spilled milk? It happened. Get over it, and move forward. Make sure this doesn't happen again which I am beginning to believe more and more that is what ATI is doing @ moving on.
Xeon w3520 oc'd to 4.2ghz w/ htt enabled
Foxconn Bloodrage (G32 Bios)
2 x Nvidia 285 gtx's (overclock varies. Most recent core: 700/ shaders: 1550/ ram: 1230)
6gbs G-skill Trident ddr3 2000mhz ram @ 1604mhz (timings: 6 7 6 20 T1)
Silverstone ST1000 1000W PSU
WD RaptorX 150gb, WD 1tb, Seagate Perpendicular 320gb (non raid config)
2 x LG Sata 22x DVD Burner
Swiftech Apogee XT Extreme Water-block, Feser X-Changer 360mm Xtreme Performance Radiator, Alphacool Cape Coolplex Pro 10 External Reservior, Swiftech MCP655™ 12 VDC Pump, 3x Scythe 120mm fans, 1/2in tubing
Creative X-Fi Titanium Sound Card
Lian Li X-500 Case
And a partridge in a peared tree
You are not understanding the issue here, I think.
The in-game AA (not MSAA forced from out the game) is not working on ATi hw because the developers purposely have include a check that disables AA if ATi hw is detected.
The solution that ATI can give to this problem, I can give it too, and they have: "Erase that sentence about IF ATI DETECTED THEN DON'T ALLOW AA" and then, AA will work.
What people is doing to enable AA with ATi cards, is to modify the ATI card ID's on the game to trick the game into think that their card is not an ATI one, and cracking the game to run the modified game despite of the copy protection.
There's no issue with AA. There's a lock put there by developers. That's the whole point of this thread discussion.
Last edited by Farinorco; 10-02-2009 at 02:45 PM.
I'm sorry. I was under the assumption the thread topic was the fact Nvidia came out and said they did not purposely prevent AA from working on Ati Hardware on Batman Arkyum Asylum and the reason Nvidia was able to have AA implemented in the game with their hardware was that they worked with the devs to insure AA would be enabled ingame on their hardware. Also that AMD / Ati was free to work with the devs as well to insure AA was implemented ingame with their hardware.
And apparently there is an issue with AA with ATI cards otherwise this thread would have no basis.
One of the sub topics of this thread is whether or not the devs should of made sure AA was supported for ATI as well as Nvidia hardware. That's the point I was addressing in your last thread prior to this one. Btw the devs arent obligated to do ish thats not in their contracts.
And again I ask has it been documented / confirmed that Ati made any attempts to contact the devs to have AA enabled ingame with their hardware (layman's terms have they asked the lock be removed), and if so what were the dev's response? Did they flat out tell Ati no, and if that is the case is all Ati can do is suggest removing the lock from the game manually?
If the answer is yes then hey that's all ATI can do. If its not the case Ati either screwed up by not making sure AA was enabled ingame (which the Nvidia statement seems to imply Ati didn't put enough effort to do so) on their hardware, or they didn't care about this game in the first place and are focusing on other IPs which is my theory.
If the spirit of the thread is whether or not Nvidia is lying about not telling the devs to put a lock on AA for Ati hardware, and you are questioning their ethics and business practices within the scope of the law...that has no validity in my eyes as the bottom line to me anyways is if no contract terms, or consumer laws have been broken I don't see any reason to be all that concerned about the lock especially if all u can do to enable AA in game is to remove a line. Like I said the devs are obligated to do ish within the terms of their contracts.
Nvidia got a one up on Ati this time. It happens. Ati should just make sure it doesn't happen again.
Last edited by Trembledust; 10-02-2009 at 04:38 PM.
Xeon w3520 oc'd to 4.2ghz w/ htt enabled
Foxconn Bloodrage (G32 Bios)
2 x Nvidia 285 gtx's (overclock varies. Most recent core: 700/ shaders: 1550/ ram: 1230)
6gbs G-skill Trident ddr3 2000mhz ram @ 1604mhz (timings: 6 7 6 20 T1)
Silverstone ST1000 1000W PSU
WD RaptorX 150gb, WD 1tb, Seagate Perpendicular 320gb (non raid config)
2 x LG Sata 22x DVD Burner
Swiftech Apogee XT Extreme Water-block, Feser X-Changer 360mm Xtreme Performance Radiator, Alphacool Cape Coolplex Pro 10 External Reservior, Swiftech MCP655™ 12 VDC Pump, 3x Scythe 120mm fans, 1/2in tubing
Creative X-Fi Titanium Sound Card
Lian Li X-500 Case
And a partridge in a peared tree
Just vote with your dollars, don't buy the game/nv hardware. That's what I'm doing
EXACTLY!!Just vote with your dollars, don't buy the game/nv hardware. That's what I'm doing
Ah ha! Just found in another thread a statement from Ian from Ati:
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...d.php?t=235487
Aight so Ati did address these issues to the devs, and looks like the devs are working with them. So it seems. That answers one of my questions. I wouldn't be so concerned on why this happened, who's fault is it etc. Least they are working on the problem.
Last edited by Trembledust; 10-02-2009 at 05:05 PM.
Xeon w3520 oc'd to 4.2ghz w/ htt enabled
Foxconn Bloodrage (G32 Bios)
2 x Nvidia 285 gtx's (overclock varies. Most recent core: 700/ shaders: 1550/ ram: 1230)
6gbs G-skill Trident ddr3 2000mhz ram @ 1604mhz (timings: 6 7 6 20 T1)
Silverstone ST1000 1000W PSU
WD RaptorX 150gb, WD 1tb, Seagate Perpendicular 320gb (non raid config)
2 x LG Sata 22x DVD Burner
Swiftech Apogee XT Extreme Water-block, Feser X-Changer 360mm Xtreme Performance Radiator, Alphacool Cape Coolplex Pro 10 External Reservior, Swiftech MCP655™ 12 VDC Pump, 3x Scythe 120mm fans, 1/2in tubing
Creative X-Fi Titanium Sound Card
Lian Li X-500 Case
And a partridge in a peared tree
I don't know who is telling the truth, but in any event, nvidia isn't doing against natural law, so I guess we're all going to have to deal with having one vendor that can do some things the other vendor can't.
I've always thought it was ridiculous how AA has always been so unimportant to most people, both developers and the end-users. That's always pissed me off.
Doesn't ATi's EDAA work with 99% of games anyway, regardless of engine?
Truth Is Treason In the Empire Of Lies. ~ Ron Paul
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.
~ Declaration of Independence
A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine. ~ Thomas Jefferson
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtcWU1lyssk
(Obamanation song. LOVE IT!)
Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And let me remind you that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue. ~Sen. Goldwater
full reserve, free banking=sound money, no bank runs. I wish people could understand that.
Taxes are less worse than inflation and borrowing.
Yeah, what a novel idea having both sides of the story available to debate. Of course, locking out one sides stance does make the other's easier to be heard! Like I said, you'd have to be pretty naiive to think locking the thread with Ian's position, that started the whole debate, didn't have some strategic significance.
I said it before, and I'll say it again...
If you want to say that someone did that for some kind of strategic significance, take it up with the sites admin, as it was his decision to do so. Considering he's not even arguing with anyone here, I fail to see how he did so as some part of a strategy.
Guys this pretty much sums up the whole thing, AMD is being silly, they need to get their act together.
http://www.bit-tech.net/news/hardwar...-accusations/1
Intel Core i7-3770K
ASUS P8Z77-I DELUXE
EVGA GTX 970 SC
Corsair 16GB (2x8GB) Vengeance LP 1600
Corsair H80
120GB Samsung 840 EVO, 500GB WD Scorpio Blue, 1TB Samsung Spinpoint F3
Corsair RM650
Cooler Master Elite 120 Advanced
OC: 5Ghz | +0.185 offset : 1.352v
So if NVIDIA screwed the game on ATI hardware by trying to "support" their drivers, next time the developers would opt out of fixing bugs altogether and just leave the game broken?
But you were under wrong assumptions. NVIDIA came out and reworded things to look a bit better, but the thing is like follows:
>>UE3 doesn't allow using default MSAA because the deferred shading.
>>If you want to use any AA with a deferred shading, you must implement your own custom filter (as if you write an ambient occlusion shader, a motion blur shader, or any other thing).
>>Batman Arkham Assylum uses UE3, so no default AA.
>>Eidos, in cooperation with their sponsors NVIDIA, have coded a custom AA filter.
>>They have took the decision of not allowing that code to run in ATI hw (even when perfectly compatible) by a check that disables it if ATI hw is detected.
What NVIDIA has said, read the communication in the first post of this thread, it's that "they are not disabling for ATI but enabling only for NVIDIA because the UE3 don't have default AA and they have had to program one", that "since they have program their own AA code, if ATI wants their cards running with AA, that they program their own code".
The whole point of this discussion is, is that right? OK, NVIDIA has written (or helped to write) the AA code. So, is it right that they don't allow ATI users to run it? ATI is helping Codemasters to write code for new features implemented over DX11. Is it right if they ask Codemasters to include a check to not allow this code running on NVIDIA hw, since they have written it (or colaborated to it)?
Then, in your opinion, that thread has no basis. There's no AA issue further than the lock to grey out the option for ATI users. The trick to allow ATI cards bypass that lock (cheating the game into thinking that they are not ATI cards by changing the names that the game gives to the ATI cards, to not be able to recognize the ATI cards as ATI cards) actually works.And apparently there is an issue with AA with ATI cards otherwise this thread would have no basis.
The basis of this thread, is that there's people here that thinks that as NVIDIA has written (or helped to write) that code, they are on their right to not allow ATI users to run it.
Some others say that this kind of practices are harming to the consumer, because they limit the options it has as consumer, and introducing exclusivity in PC software is the last thing we need now, so we shouldn't stay smiling and give them a thumb up.
That's the point of the discussion.
NVIDIA is not lying in their communication. They are rewording things to give that impression. They are saying "we are not disabling anything, because the engine doesn't support it by default. We are introducing new code that wasn't there before, so what we are doing it's not disabling anything, but enabling only for us. It's our work, so if ATI wants AA, they should code their own".If the spirit of the thread is whether or not Nvidia is lying about not telling the devs to put a lock on AA for Ati hardware, and you are questioning their ethics and business practices within the scope of the law...that has no validity in my eyes as the bottom line to me anyways is if no contract terms, or consumer laws have been broken I don't see any reason to be all that concerned about the lock especially if all u can do to enable AA in game is to remove a line. Like I said the devs are obligated to do ish within the terms of their contracts.
They are playing with the concept of "if I would not have coded it, neither you or me would have it. So if I code it and I stop you from use it, you are equal and I have the code, so I am not disabling for you, but enabling for me".
The reality, it's that it's a code written over standard API that work on all standard hw, ATI included, and it's not working because a lock. ATI could say exactly the same about the code their are helping to code to Codemasters for GRID2, for example.
Note NVIDIA haven't said at any moment that there is not a lock (they can't, because that point has already been demonstrated), but that since they and not ATI have helped to develope that code, their are on their rights. Basically.
Last edited by Farinorco; 10-03-2009 at 01:36 AM.
Uhm, a hard time understanding the issue?
AMD did not have to help the dev team to get it implemented, because AA allready works fine on ATI cards if you trick the game into thinking you have an nvidia card.
This really shows just how silly the nvidia PR department is.
What are they claiming ati should have done to get AA implemented in this game?
Maybe "help" the developers remove the nvidia ID check?
You do know that AMD changed the device ID to an nvidia one and they got great results with AA applied in BAA?
This is Nvidia's bad... They did the same thing with Directx 10.1 support for TWIMTP game. Excluding new techs and not letting other cards use features such as AA/AF is a weak move.
They could have done something to decrease the AA performance of 58xx or something else. What Nvidia says right now "ATi can work with them, etc" basically means ATi should give money to batman developers and after several months a batman game patch will be released to remedy this problem.
Nvidia you are becoming more and more like Intel, what happened to you. Where is the Nvidia i bought the Ti 4400 from ???
Coming Soon
Is this a joke? Smoke, steam, spider webs, cloth, leaves, sparks? lol
The game really shines with physX? Really? Pretty easy when you stripe the non physx version from visual effects that have been around since 1978.
But it works, there's always morons who will buy a GT300 to be able to play games that have smoke and steam...(see youtube comments)
Nvidia fanboys are going over the top, Nvida put effort time and money to make AA possible with nvidia cards? Right, that's why you just need to change the ID of the card to make it run on ATI. The only "hardwork" nvidia had, was the same kind of "hardwork" that made 10.1 disapear from Assassin creed.
It's not exactly stopping competitors from using basic features as AA or AF, since the "basic" default AA doesn't work with deferred shading. It's more a matter of developing code that only can run on the own hw.
To make it more clear, it's not like if you pick a game G (with forward rendering) and lock the basic AA, but like if you pick a game G, code a screen space ambient oclusion shader and you only let that shader run on your own hw.
I don't think that's the path to follow. And I think the same about what you're saying about "make it run slower on competitors hw": from my POV, to make the sw purposely run slower than it could on competitors hw is a sabotage in the same exact way.
The way that both NVIDIA and ATI have been focusing their developers support programs until now is the way to go from my POV, because everybody has their benefit. The point was: "hey, I give you free support to develope your game, that way I can ensure that your game is well optimized (at least for my hw, the competitors one is their problem), it has not bugs, and even I can give you some code that makes your game better, and that I know that it's better running on my hw than on competitor's (because I know which are my strengths and weaks and the competitor's too). And I even have early access to the code to have an optimized profile on my drivers when the game is released". The game is better, better optimized, drivers too, and everyone wins (the IHV, the developer, the consumer).
NVIDIA has been doing an excellent support work until now, better than AMD in my opinion, and it has given them a competitive advantage. But the way they are turning it now (Batman AA "support" is very ugly step, I think), it's no longer benefitial for the regular consumer. It's ugly, it's harming us, and we should try to stop it before it becomes the norm (maybe for both companies, which would be even worse...)
+1, and you can run PhysX on CPU as long as yours is up to date.Is this a joke? Smoke, steam, spider webs, cloth, leaves, sparks? lol
The game really shines with physX? Really? Pretty easy when you stripe the non physx version from visual effects that have been around since 1978.
But it works, there's always morons who will buy a GT300 to be able to play games that have smoke and steam...
Nvidia fanboys are going over the top, Nvida put effort time and money to make AA possible with nvidia cards? Right, that's why you just need to change the ID of the card to make it run on ATI. The only "hardwork" nvidia had, was the same kind of "hardwork" that made 10.1 disapear from Assassin creed.
What I did not like is one of the mods over there calling FUGGER a troll for actually trying to get an answer on the Batman forum. http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=96872
I actually think everyone with a question to Eidos/Rocksteady should post it right on their forums like fugger did, or well at least just go +1 on Fuggers initial post, in case one agrees with the questions asked.
Last edited by Mads321; 10-03-2009 at 06:44 AM.
Yeah that Batman PhysX video shows two different games really.
All it does is "omit" what would be the equivelent effect if it didn't have PhysX, how stupid.
Wow, you can walk thru some trash cans..oh, and they actually move. Hey geniuses, I could do that in Half-Life 2. Yes, I could pick them up and throw them too..Oh and yes, they would hit other objects and move them too. Many games already have that and they don't need PissX to get it either. FAIL!
The falling tiles off the walls, yes this can be a set programmed thing too, doesn't mean we have to interact with it..but so what, all the PhysX stuff is mostly just eye candy anyway, right? FAIL!
The flying objects that into the sky, this also could have been programmed with something equivelent. Leaving it off so the PissX difference is a "night and Day" SELLING point for NVidia..simple as that!. Another FAIL!
And don't get me started on smoke, steam and fog. This is simply stupid. Just because it doesn't do PissX smoke and steam let's not do any at all?? What?? How about put some "normal good 'o boy smoke" in there. Smoke and fog and steam have been in just about EVERY newish release title since who knows when. How about we don't put in fire or explosions either unless it's PhysX? Yeah, noone knows how to program for that..why not? That moves around too. Again, FAIL!
Oh, and just leave out the "Caution, Do Not Cross" tape, towel hanger, hanging cloth signs, spider webs, extra leaves on the ground, falling leaves completely if it can't be done with PhysX. I'm sure none of this could ever be done normally. FAIL!
And the end where there are sparks, jeez, NEVER seen any non-PhysX games do sparks before..holy crap, what an invention.Oh, and look, there IS smoke there. What do you know? The game can actually do smoke after all without PhysX. Programming FAIL!
The no ATI AA thing is just a minor perversion they did with this game. The real sham is the whole "ours moves and yours doesn't" so let's remove the whole thing crap!
Every time they OMIT something in place of PhysX they probably could have replaced it with something more rigid but similar...but of course they didn't. What, it takes too much time to do? Oh yeah, all your resourses were being taken up by NV stooges trying to get their proprietary crap to work. Way to go guys. Epic FAIL!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] The Obamanator!!!
GTX 480 Griddle Edition - Bit-Tech.net
Agree with you Your_Boss, I wish Nvidia never touched that game.
Your_Boss The problem is that too many people like the getting one over someone else syndrome & cant see the bigger picture that they themselves are being short changed on that feature as they are getting less usage of that feature than if that feature was there for all to use & its not the NV userbase getting one over its NV getting one over on everyone including there user base.
As far as i'm concerned AMD are more concerned with PR & marketing than actually pulling their fingers out & getting developers to make PC Gaming better. I'm not saying I condone nVidia's/Eidos's actions but at least nVidia worked with the developer on getting a feature added to the game. What happened after that is not in best taste but AMD in my opinion just look worse for moaning & still not attepting to make AA available for their cards.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks