Selling ES processor is a risky business.

[runmc]

If you don't want them abused - don't give them away. People will always try to make a buck - legal or not.
I wish Intel would stop giving them out, and then we wouldn't have to worry about people trying to sell them here.

BTW - Dave please don't make Intel go bankrupt.

[loonym]

Here's a scenario. I buy a cpu through a private sale. I don't know it's a sample, perhaps the seller doesn't either (I can't speculate what others do or do not know). I get it and look it over, hmmmm... INTEL CONFIDENTIAL. Who's the owner, intel? Are they going to send me a retail if I mail it in? Are they going to reimburse me? I'm figuring a big NO on both. Am I going to put in on the shelf after I'm done with it? Am I going to throw it away? Hah.... another 2 negatives. I'm gonna turn it around. Is DrWho? going to knock on my door? Are the cpu police going to hunt me down? You guessed it, no and no. My scared face is already put away Francois so please quit flexing mmk?

[devsk]

I think OP needs to talk with their own folks at Intel. The million dollar question is: Why does Intel not ask for those chips back? Its ridiculous on Intel's part to give away something for free and then blame people for making money off of it. They just can't throw the damn thing in the sea! Its like burning money...

All you need is a credit card number to get it back eventually!

[radaja]

they should just make a failsafe in the ES sample cpu's
they blowup after 6 month's.end of story no one will
buy a cpu that will blow eventually

[runmc]

they should just make a failsafe in the ES sample cpu's
they blowup after 6 month's.end of story no one will
buy a cpu that will blow eventually

Yeah like the mission instructions tape on "Mission Impossible"

[radaja]

Yeah like the mission instructions tape on "Mission Impossible

exactly

[salad]

http://cgi.ebay.com/_W0QQitemZ260437993383

This was not smart, I warned ...
Now, it is not up to me anymore.

Francois

Is this the real reason why he's in trouble (see highlighted below):

[salad]

For those who are selling their ES CPUs on OCBay, be aware that we will purchase them, and trace back to who ever originally signed up for them.

This is something you don t want to do , I am asking nicely and friendly that this does not happen ... Selling an ES can really get people into trouble, it goes under the laws of "Industrial Espionage " and few other nasty stuff you don t want to be cut under.

Francois

Wait what if AMD is also buying these?!?!? Will you start a bidding war?

Looks like it might be worth it to have the Reserve Price really high!

[Drwho?]

Is this the real reason why he's in trouble (see highlighted below):

lol ... no, I did not even see this ... lol ...
More seriously, ES are the property of Intel, and this is not the 1st time I warn him

Sad to have to come to this!

Francois

[loften]

can you send me one? a simple e8600 would do.. i will oc it as much as i can for the lan party at intel/folsom this month.. i will even turn it in as i leave..

[Drwho?]

I just love it when people state the obvious..

I've got mixed feelings here.
I've met this guy. Good people.
Hard working OC'er with great talents.
I would hate to see Intel come down on him.
In fact I would hate it to the point where I'd never spend another dime with Intel.
That isn't the PC thing to say in this thread but thats how I feel.
About time for someone to stand up and say the truth here instead of being polite as I and others have.
This will probably hurt me personally but i'm not going to stand by quietly and watch a major corporation go after a individual and say nothing.
Francois:
Here's the facts of the world we live in.
You folks send out hundreds or thousands of ES chips yearly to companies to use to validate their products plus some to individuals for reviews and ot testing.
Nothing the matter with that at all.
It's what you have to do to stay in business .
Then lets get to the real world where most of us aren't in the 6 figure income bracket such as yourself.
We have passions for a hobby or in my case that and the desire to try and rid the world of diseases so our kids live longer and happier lives.
Someone offers me a pair of cpu's at 1/2 what they would cost retail and you think I'm going to say no?
Do I care if they say ES on them or SE? no.
They do the work I need done and thats the bottom line.
If the seller made money on what he sold me thats up to him.
What I see is that I get machines built and doing the work that never would have been built and to me that is all that matters.
Now you and I get along and I respect you position but if Intel brings down the weight of the company on boble then I'm done with Intel and will do what I can to convince others to walk away from Intel also.
Sorry, but that is exactly how I feel.
These are my personal feelings and in no way am I representing Xtremesystems with my comments.

People selling the samples are the reason why we can not support stuff like the F1 championship of OC, it is not about money, it is about trust and respect of the rules.

1) they are selling something they don't own.
2) The person buying it does not get a real CPU ... even if he think it is a better CPU, it is not!
3) They are making money on something they did not pay for.
4) They get their friends into trouble in the company that gave them the samples ...

They do the same commerce with AMD parts.

It is ok to sell processors as long as they are not ES, what is so difficult to understand that ... It is like Nissan or Honda let you try a car ... and while you try the car, you go and sell it on ebay.

The people selling the ES hurt the OC community, the day they understand that, we will be better OFF.

So, yes, we are changing the sampling ... we now have full tracability, and it is sad, but we are going to use it.

and of course, it has to be a french guy who does this! @!#$%@!@#$%

[WhiteFireDragon]

dude this is ridiculous. you're using boblemagnifique as an example of how you will try to hunt down every person that tries to sell an ES? it's been mentioned a few times already but i'll just beat the dead horse: this would not be a problem if you guys (intel) have better regulations in the first place.

[Drwho?]

dude this is ridiculous. you're using boblemagnifique as an example of how you will try to hunt down every person that tries to sell an ES? it's been mentioned a few times already but i'll just beat the dead horse: this would not be a problem if you guys (intel) have better regulations in the first place.

We have regulation in place, the sad part is that because of few people, we are going to have to apply them.

the greed of few will create problem for the rest of the sample users.

Just take our place, what would you feel if somebody start selling your own stuff ... Nothing ridiculous.

[bot@xs]

to me the question, as asked before, is still:
why not ask back for the chip?
why not set a time frame for use in the first place.

if i receive something that i have not paid for, yes it does not necessarily make me the owner but if i already know that the original owner has no interest in getting it back doesn't that make it somewhat my property?

instead of hunting down chips on ebay, ocbay, etc; just ask back for the chips from the people you gave them to, then you know exactly who has honored your agreement and who did not.
that is, if you guys keep good record of what you lend out .. right?

i also, think that it would have impact on intel if some well known names here would decide to boycott intel because this why these chips appear here in the first place. so "this" community can spread the word. mouth to mouth advertisement .. best in the world. if this forum would rally for a boycott, most certainly intel would feel the pinch but i am not tryin to start something here, just saying .. a superstar is nothing without his fans, neither super, nor a star

[Drwho?]

to me the question, as asked before, is still:
why not ask back for the chip?

The sampling program is larger than you think, we are sending samples to PC manufacturerssss and they want to keep the CPU for further validation usually.

Most of the samples sold are not the one we distribute via press sampling, neither the rare sample given to overclockers for marketing activities. Those people respect the rules.

Calling back sample would be a very big scale operation, that would bother a lot of people. some time, randomely, we organize audit, and ask few back.

What I am trying to do here is some prevention and some information, instead of hunting directly for something I wish does not exist.

I hope that by repeating enough the fact that it is not OK to sell the samples, we will see this dissapearing.

For those that break the rules in the public place and leave enough evidence, there is nothing I can do, I warned many times, and their employers will get the nice email they deserve about the confidentiality and ownership of the product they sold.
They usually get 30 days to provide the part back to us ...

guys, i am trying to be open here, if you want a F1 ligue, you got to fix those obvious problems. I will not sponsor any even with one of the guys selling the parts online into the events, and I ll ask my buddies at AMD to follow this since it is reasonable. that sound like a good beginning

[jcniest5]

to me the question, as asked before, is still:
why not ask back for the chip?
why not set a time frame for use in the first place.

Those that have sold their ES CPU will just say they tossed it after using it for the intended purpose and that was to find if there were any bugs in it.

[Ozzfest05]

The funny thing about this is there is too many people selling chips way too many how is it intels property if they never have to give it back?
What if they fried the said cpu and gave it to a friend as a cool keychain.
I have been offered ES cpus, my friend just bought a 965 ES cpu, I know of three other people that have bought ES I7's in the last 4 months.

[runmc]

We have know here at XtremeSystems that the es processors are the property of Intel. We (many of us) have tried to discourage sales of es chips on the forums. We even have rules in place to try and prevent this. We know Intel doesn't like people selling these chips. To me it is not honest to sell something that doesn't belong to you. People are going to do it anyway behind our backs. We do our best, but sometimes that's not good enough.

Let's keep this discussion calm and cool. No blame/name/flame throwing please.

[Movieman]

People selling the samples are the reason why we can not support stuff like the F1 championship of OC, it is not about money, it is about trust and respect of the rules.

1) they are selling something they don't own.
2) The person buying it does not get a real CPU ... even if he think it is a better CPU, it is not!
3) They are making money on something they did not pay for.
4) They get their friends into trouble in the company that gave them the samples ...

They do the same commerce with AMD parts.

It is ok to sell processors as long as they are not ES, what is so difficult to understand that ... It is like Nissan or Honda let you try a car ... and while you try the car, you go and sell it on ebay.

The people selling the ES hurt the OC community, the day they understand that, we will be better OFF.

So, yes, we are changing the sampling ... we now have full tracability, and it is sad, but we are going to use it.

and of course, it has to be a french guy who does this! @!#$%@!@#$%

To respond by the numbers;
1) The orginal seller sold something he didn't own.
He is the one who made money on the item and "he" is most likely an employee of one of the major motherboard companies or the like.
He is your problem not the people who see 1.2 or 6 Es chips per year.
Guys like Boblemagnifique aren't in this for money.
If I know him he probably bought that chip 3-4 weeks ago for more than he sold it for.
Tested it, had his fun and then passed it on hoping to break close to even.
Guys like that "live" for the testing part. That is their passion. It is definately not a money thing to them.
You know that when the price of cpu's has come up on this forum that I've always supported the fact that it's a free marketplace but there is the reality that to buy Intel products at retail prices is a rich mans hobby.
I recently priced out a pair of W5580's for my Gainestown system and do you know what they go for retail?
How about $3400.00 and up for a pair.
Look for yourself:
Shopping results for w5580 xeonIntel BX80602W5580:
Quad Core Xeon W5580 $1,707.49 new - ProVantage
Quad Core Xeon W5580 $1,935.50 new - nuLime
Intel Xeon W5580 3.2GHz LGA 1366 130W Quad-Core ... $1,699.99 new - Newegg.com
I don't expect you to give them away but get realistic and understand when the numbers are that high almost anyone will buy a pair of ES's when they are offerred.
To expect anything else is just not facing reality.
2) This is not always true and I expect you knew that before you typed it.
It depends on stepping .
There are ES's and then there are ES's.
Just like the retail Q6600 G0's were a major step up over the previous B3 chips the same is true with ES's.
A D0 step ES i7-975 is every bit as good as the retail and I can cite many other examples to prove my point.
3) Yes, the orginal seller did make money on something he didn't pay for but from that point on, the end users aren't making much money if any on the chips.
4) I don't know how to answer this except to say that the two chips I've received, one directly from AMD and one that I think but am not sure came to me with Intels blessing I wouldn't sell for my own reasons.

The bottom line here is that we aren't your enemy.
We are not the ones dealing in mass quantities of ES chips making hundreds of thousands in profit on them.
I'll guarantee you that I'm not.
I think there's $100.00 in my checking account right now and maybe 50% of what I've made in the last 6 months has gone to computer parts.
There's an old expression that fits well here:
'Your so busy bending over picking up pennies that you don't see the dollar bills falling out of your pocket."

[lutjens]

To respond by the numbers;
1) The orginal seller sold something he didn't own.
He is the one who made money on the item and "he" is most likely an employee of one of the major motherboard companies or the like.
He is your problem not the people who see 1.2 or 6 Es chips per year.
Guys like Boblemagnifique aren't in this for money.
If I know him he probably bought that chip 3-4 weeks ago for more than he sold it for.
Tested it, had his fun and then passed it on hoping to break close to even.
Guys like that "live" for the testing part. That is their passion. It is definately not a money thing to them.
You know that when the price of cpu's has come up on this forum that I've always supported the fact that it's a free marketplace but there is the reality that to buy Intel products at retail prices is a rich mans hobby.
I recently priced out a pair of W5580's for my Gainestown system and do you know what they go for retail?
How about $3400.00 and up for a pair.
Look for yourself:
Shopping results for w5580 xeonIntel BX80602W5580:
Quad Core Xeon W5580 $1,707.49 new - ProVantage
Quad Core Xeon W5580 $1,935.50 new - nuLime
Intel Xeon W5580 3.2GHz LGA 1366 130W Quad-Core ... $1,699.99 new - Newegg.com
I don't expect you to give them away but get realistic and understand when the numbers are that high almost anyone will buy a pair of ES's when they are offerred.
To expect anything else is just not facing reality.
2) This is not always true and I expect you knew that before you typed it.
It depends on stepping .
There are ES's and then there are ES's.
Just like the retail Q6600 G0's were a major step up over the previous B3 chips the same is true with ES's.
A D0 step ES i7-975 is every bit as good as the retail and I can cite many other examples to prove my point.
3) Yes, the orginal seller did make money on something he didn't pay for but from that point on, the end users aren't making much money if any on the chips.
4) I don't know how to answer this except to say that the two chips I've received, one directly from AMD and one that I think but am not sure came to me with Intels blessing I wouldn't sell for my own reasons.

The bottom line here is that we aren't your enemy.
We are not the ones dealing in mass quantities of ES chips making hundreds of thousands in profit on them.
I'll guarantee you that I'm not.
I think there's $100.00 in my checking account right now and maybe 50% of what I've made in the last 6 months has gone to computer parts.
There's an old expression that fits well here:
'Your so busy bending over picking up pennies that you don't see the dollar bills falling out of your pocket."

I have to agree with Dave on this. ES chips used to be far more attractive for their unlocked multipliers, but since the introduction of the Extreme Edition chips and the downward unlocking of all others, there remain, as I see it, 2 reasons why people continue to buy the ES processors.

1) They can't afford the retail version of the products. Since the processors are obtained for very little or nothing, those selling them can sell them for much less than a retail product and still make a great deal of money on them.

2) The ES chip being sold is a processor that isn't available at retail. People will buy them just because they're the only way to get the latest and greatest when there is no supply in the channel (ie the i7 975 is just recently available in retail...the ES chips have been around for most of the year).


Reason #1 isn't likely to be resolved anytime soon by any other manner except price reductions, but could partially be offset by asking OEMs for a deposit on ES chips that go out and sharply reducing access to them by those within Intel. I've seen some auctions on Ebay with trays of ES processors...how such a number of processors get out unnoticed is really very odd. I once saw in an auction, pictures of a CASE of trays loaded with ES chips. I have a hard time believing that a theft of this magnitude occured without someone at Intel being involved at some point. Also, asking an OEM for the qualification samples back from a previous generation before new ones are issued will ensure that they are better controlled at the OEM level.

Reason #2 is easier to solve. Some sort of early access program could be (and should be) instituted that enthusiasts (not just elite overclockers or those with internal connections to Intel) can apply to become a part of. This would grant them access to early ES chips and allow them to use and test them. Full documentation and investigation of the applicant and full strict NDAs would apply. Also, at any time, Intel can request a validation program be run to prove that the CPU is still in possession of the applicant. A deposit should also be charged. Upon retail release, the CPU can be exchanged for a proper retail version, with Intel keeping the deposit and the exchanged ES CPU, the ES can be kept by the tester (in exchange for Intel keeping the deposit) or the CPU can be returned to Intel with the deposit refunded. Any of above options could all be used depending on Intel's desires.

Such a program would be beneficial in allowing certain enthusiasts access to the latest and greatest and would expose the early silicon to a variety of systems, configurations and peripherals and be beneficial in the identifcation of errata. A testing regimen can even be specified by Intel for the CPU (running of certain specified test programs and benchmarks) to expose errata. The downside is that there would be a modest expenditure of resources to implement such a program, but considering there is a system in place already to issue ES chips to a variety of testers, it should be very modest. The benefits, however, would be numerous for both enthusiasts and Intel.

Like Dave said, we aren't your enemy. I think the vast majority of us enthusiasts would be honored and excited to be part of testing CPUs and hardware that will become a retail product one day. I know I would.

[nascasho]

How does one go about testing an ES chip? Hell, I don't care if you installed a GPS on it to make sure it doesn't leave the house, I just wanna see how far it can go. Sounds fun!

[salad]

Now you and I get along and I respect you position but if Intel brings down the weight of the company on boble then I'm done with Intel and will do what I can to convince others to walk away from Intel also.
Sorry, but that is exactly how I feel.
These are my personal feelings and in no way am I representing Xtremesystems with my comments.

There's an awesome thread on a dual hexcore Istanbul system being built at http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...d.php?t=226283

[SNiiPE_DoGG]

good opinions in this thread - makes me think why the heck do I have to pay 500% markup to get an unlocked multiplier? hasn't intel ever considered that if they made the extreme edition even remotely affordable that more people would buy them and they might just might actually make more money.....

[fatguy1992]

What I don't understand is why is it so important that people don't sell them? Like what is Intel worried is going to happen, say a competitor gets a hold of one, what is the worse that would happen? I can understand not wanting them sold on before they are released to the public, but after that what is the problem. I'm probably forgetting something, also I had a quick look through and didn't see an answer to this question.

good opinions in this thread - makes me think why the heck do I have to pay 500% markup to get an unlocked multiplier? hasn't intel ever considered that if they made the extreme edition even remotely affordable that more people would buy them and they might just might actually make more money.....

True, very good point AMD doesn't do that, as fas as I know.

[SNiiPE_DoGG]

heres an option - just label all CPUs retail coming from intel, screw the ES thing, and just give them away. Like intel doesnt make enough money already to give away some chips that cost them <$200...