AMD Phenom II Review Thread

[marten_larsson]

Thanks for confirming AMD's fastest quad core is now and will be until 2010-2011 at the same level of Intel's Q9300-9400, two of their slower quad cores. I can't see any success there. AMD needs to beat the competition to regain the perfomance crown, not being barely equal.

You don't know if it's gonna be the fastest one until 2011, so commenting on that is just stupid. AMD does not even have to beat Intel to be competitive. To gain the performance crown, sure, and it's quite self-explaining. Also I don't believe AMD needs the halo effect as much as Intel. AMD is expected to be slightly worse because Intel is much bigger and older in the game. Add to that the dominance Intel have had with C2 until now it's easy to see AMD does not need to be on top of the hill to stay on the market. Surely they could use a bit more market share or average selling price but AMD isn't bleeding all that much (just compare with GM, Ford or maybe Swedish SAAB which has been having a negative cash flow the last decade or so)...

[Clairvoyant129]

AMD isn't bleeding all that much (just compare with GM, Ford or maybe Swedish SAAB which has been having a negative cash flow the last decade or so)...

I don't know where you have been but AMD has been bleeding since ATI's purchase.

[informal]

Thanks for confirming AMD's fastest quad core is now and will be until 2010-2011 at the same level of Intel's Q9300-9400, two of their slower quad cores. I can't see any success there. AMD needs to beat the competition to regain the perfomance crown, not being barely equal.

You seem to completely forget about 32nm shrink of Deneb in H2 2010 with 50% more cores(6cores),more cache and higher clocks.Will this type of product meet your expectations?And then in 2011 you will have Orochi based on totally new Bulldozer design with 6(+) cores. Heck,you will see 6 core Istanbul on 45nm this year,maybe even on desktop in Q4(it will be sub 300mm2 device,just like Barcelona)...

[Shintai]

You seem to completely forget about 32nm shrink of Deneb in H2 2010 with 50% more cores(6cores),more cache and higher clocks.Will this type of product meet your expectations?And then in 2011 you will have Orochi based on totally new Bulldozer design with 6(+) cores. Heck,you will see 6 core Istanbul on 45nm this year,maybe even on desktop in Q4...

AMDs roadmap doesnt agree with you. Nor does their 32nm capabilities.

[Donnie27]

so reading your reply I also can assume that the anandtech review is biased to? According to them the 920-940 is a good competitor for q8x00 and q9300-9400 and i don't see why not since they are priced in the same range, perform equal and consume equal, that's what they call marketing. Nothing more nothing less.

http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets...oc.aspx?i=3492

(or is it still just you still depressed that you did not have enough budget to buy a good k8 cpu at that point in time.... which price/performance ratio can never be transferred/referred/compared to against another time and system since that's marketing, but you keep bringing this over and over.)

The question is when are those blue and green fanbois going to get it that both have a product and people are free to buy and think whatever they want.

thx blue fanbois for crapping on every amd thread , its a review thread ..... jmke did a nice comparison of many review sites with the same conclusion as anandtech, but still some blue fanbois are very confident they are sure, only one solution for you guys go : http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...splay.php?f=59

Actually, I read and like Anand's review.

The truth is that Green and Blue boys and girls don't really matter. The colors that do matter are the colors of IBM, HP, Dell and all the other companies selling this stuff. The only people worried how positive or negatively about the reviews are Fans. As I said, to most folks it just more senseless Geeks Nit-Picking. It's like Nerds arguing over Comic book Characters, who cares.

Those who forget history are doomed to fail and mistake in the future. Maybe you think forgetting is cool, some folks use it as a reference. See folks complaining about $300 processors? Depressed? Not at all I just wasn't a sucker enough to pay that much. AMD Fans who thought AMD loved them enough NOT to squeeze them are the ones who should be depressed. No, maybe they liked paying more

[STaRGaZeR]

You don't know if it's gonna be the fastest one until 2011, so commenting on that is just stupid. AMD does not even have to beat Intel to be competitive. To gain the performance crown, sure, and it's quite self-explaining. Also I don't believe AMD needs the halo effect as much as Intel. AMD is expected to be slightly worse because Intel is much bigger and older in the game. Add to that the dominance Intel have had with C2 until now it's easy to see AMD does not need to be on top of the hill to stay on the market. Surely they could use a bit more market share or average selling price but AMD isn't bleeding all that much (just compare with GM, Ford or maybe Swedish SAAB which has been having a negative cash flow the last decade or so)...

You seem to completely forget about 32nm shrink of Deneb in H2 2010 with 50% more cores(6cores),more cache and higher clocks.Will this type of product meet your expectations?And then in 2011 you will have Orochi based on totally new Bulldozer design with 6(+) cores. Heck,you will see 6 core Istanbul on 45nm this year,maybe even on desktop in Q4(it will be sub 300mm2 device,just like Barcelona)...

This:

I don't know where you have been but AMD has been bleeding since ATI's purchase.

And this:

AMDs roadmap doesnt agree with you. Nor does their 32nm capabilities.

Look at their roadmaps and think a bit. Also, by that time there will be two new players in the game, i5 and 32nm Westmere.

[informal]

AMDs roadmap doesnt agree with you. Nor does their 32nm capabilities.

And you must be totally naive to believe "that thing" they presented will be their roadmap for next 2 years .Due to competitive reasons AMD posted the vaguest roadmap ever.You don't have to be Einstein to figure out the Deneb will be shrank to 32nm before Bulldozer ever tapes out since AMD won't do shrink and new design at the same time and you know it.Since Bulldozer will come out in 2011,it's logical to expect 2010 and H2 of that year as 6core 32nm improved Shanghai design to be released.
As for Istanbul,we already know it's Shanghai + 2 cores on 45nm and is planned to be released somewhere in Q3 or Q4.

Wake up from your dream called "only Deneb next 2 years" and use logic this time.

[Chad Boga]

And you must be totally naive to believe "that thing" they presented will be their roadmap for next 2 years .Due to competitive reasons AMD posted the vaguest roadmap ever.You don't have to be Einstein to figure out the Deneb will be shrank to 32nm before Bulldozer ever tapes out since AMD won't do shrink and new design at the same time and you know it.

I thought you might have learnt something from the launch of the Phenom/K10.

You were espousing wonderful logic back then of along the lines of the K10 is going to have significantly better IPC than C2 because AMD needs to have it.

Sometimes you just can't recover from design problems in a quick and easy fashion in the CPU business.

Since Bulldozer will come out in 2011,it's logical to expect 2010 and H2 of that year

I think it is logical to expect a best case scenario of AMD maintaining a 12month gap to Intel on process technology, so I would say that late Q4 10 is the best one could reasonably expect and obviously a QTR or two after that would hardly come as a great shock.

[Shintai]

And you must be totally naive to believe "that thing" they presented will be their roadmap for next 2 years .Due to competitive reasons AMD posted the vaguest roadmap ever.You don't have to be Einstein to figure out the Deneb will be shrank to 32nm before Bulldozer ever tapes out since AMD won't do shrink and new design at the same time and you know it.Since Bulldozer will come out in 2011,it's logical to expect 2010 and H2 of that year as 6core 32nm improved Shanghai design to be released.
As for Istanbul,we already know it's Shanghai + 2 cores on 45nm and is planned to be released somewhere in Q3 or Q4.

Wake up from your dream called "only Deneb next 2 years" and use logic this time.

Ye I am naive to think they even gonna reach that in 2011. When everything they made sofar has been delayed and cancelled.

You can start making new hypes and dreams. Wont change anything.

[marten_larsson]

I don't know where you have been but AMD has been bleeding since ATI's purchase.

Yeah, and that was how long ago? SAAB has been losing money since 1995, that's more than 13 years ago and they are still here (even though it might be their last as a car manufacturer). AMD has been losing money since 2006 according to you. That's not even close (and the amounts of money aren't close either). Both you and Shintai are pretty much expecting the doom for AMD but I'm quite sure the investors are a bit more long termed than 2-4 years.

And as said, AMD is now competitive with Intel in the markets that matter; server and mainstream. This is NOW, we don't know what the future brings but we can make guesses. My guess is that PII 940/945 isn't the fastest AMD has in pipeline until 2011 but I'm also guessing it won't be beating the offers that Intel has. It might still be competitive though (in mainstream/server market).

Donnie27 presents one of the best points.

Average Joe (or Svensson as we call it in Sweden) don't look at benchmarks. They buy what is believed to be sufficient for their needs and cost as little as possible. If Joe decides to ask his better informed friend which is best, the friend should be able to give advice on what to buy. This friend should not only be looking at performance but performance per buck and what Joe needs. If Joe only needs an Atom-powered netbook then that's what he should buy. Not an i7 965 with 2 GTX295s and 3TB with SSDs. Even if he's a rich guy. Maybe he needs a quad to play games, he wants something good and is willing to pay a bit but not too much. Maybe the PII with a dual videocard setup is the best buy for him. He could for the same amount of money chose an Intel system with the same performance but there's no real reason to choose sides at all.

If AMD manages to be competitive in this segment, it will most likely survive and maybe even make a small profit. Because this is were the money lies. AMD hasn't been pricing their chips too far off their performance and is clearly not doing it with the PII so I'm not too worried.

[informal]

Ye I am naive to think they even gonna reach that in 2011. When everything they made sofar has been delayed and cancelled.

You can start making new hypes and dreams. Wont change anything.

Yeah just hold those palms on your ears and sing "nanananana".
FYI ,they already have the tools for 32nm process node.FYI, 6 core Deneb is just 4 core deneb with 2 more cores(duh),not a new design.FYI 45nm was delayed one quarter (Q4 for Shanghai instead of Q3).FYI,6 core deneb on 32nm will be just a shrink with more cache(again not a hard thing to do,AMD done it countless times).

You can live in your intel only world and think AMD will have 4 core deneb next 2 years,or you can use facts and logic and burst the repetitive dream you have.

[Chad Boga]

Yeah, and that was how long ago? SAAB has been losing money since 1995, that's more than 13 years ago and they are still here

Don't they have a Sugar Daddy in GM?

Both you and Shintai are pretty much expecting the doom for AMD but I'm quite sure the investors are a bit more long termed than 2-4 years.

I am not sure that is a line of argumentation you should be pursuing.

AMD/Intel/Dow comparison for 1 yr and 2 year time frame.

Some people are implying that since both Intel and AMD have dropped, both are equally bad investments. So let us compare how both have performed for 1-2 yrs versus the Dow

http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=A...urce=undefined

The results are:
........1yr...... 2yr
Dow -30% ..-22%
Intel -40% ..-22%
AMD -67% ..-85%

Intel has performed almost as well as the Dow, while AMD has completely fallen out of bed.

And as said, AMD is now competitive with Intel in the markets that matter; server and mainstream.

They are going to take an absolute hammering in the server market over the next 12 to 18 months.

[Shintai]

Yeah just hold those palms on your ears and sing "nanananana".
FYI ,they already have the tools for 32nm process node.FYI, 6 core Deneb is just 4 core deneb with 2 more cores(duh),not a new design.FYI 45nm was delayed one quarter (Q4 for Shanghai instead of Q3).FYI,6 core deneb on 32nm will be just a shrink with more cache(again not a hard thing to do,AMD done it countless times).

You can live in your intel only world and think AMD will have 4 core deneb next 2 years,or you can use facts and logic and burst the repetitive dream you have.

AMDs roadmap doesnt agree with you. And talk is cheap. In short you just guess and hope and creating a hype you seem to believe youself.

Also looking on AMDs roadmaps the last 3-4 years. Its going the wrong way! Same with the process development.

[marten_larsson]

Don't they have a Sugar Daddy in GM?


I am not sure that is a line of argumentation you should be pursuing.

AMD/Intel/Dow comparison for 1 yr and 2 year time frame.

Some people are implying that since both Intel and AMD have dropped, both are equally bad investments. So let us compare how both have performed for 1-2 yrs versus the Dow

http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=A...urce=undefined

The results are:
........1yr...... 2yr
Dow -30% ..-22%
Intel -40% ..-22%
AMD -67% ..-85%

Intel has performed almost as well as the Dow, while AMD has completely fallen out of bed.


They are going to take an absolute hammering in the server market over the next 12 to 18 months.

Well, Saab is probably down for the count in GM's eyes. And rightfully so (even though it's probably more likely that Saab would have done better with a different partner all along).

Yeah, AMD stock has plummeted. Big deal. Ericsson did that too but got back on its feet (another Swedish example). Long term investors are folks like the Abu Dhabi-people with billions in their pockets. Don't think they look for return on their investment in 6 months, do you? Clearly there are people who believes in AMD, otherwise it would have gone belly up long time ago...

AMD is currently not taking a beating. Intel's new server CPUs aren't out yet. We don't know how they are going to perform (but we have had some hints). AMD can still use prices to stay somewhat competitive. And no one here knows exactly what either company is doing so I hate to bring it to you but all you're saying is purely speculation. Nothing more, nothing less.

[v_rr]

This tread is about Ph II. Not preditions in roadmaps.

[Chad Boga]

Well, Saab is probably down for the count in GM's eyes. And rightfully so (even though it's probably more likely that Saab would have done better with a different partner all along).

Yeah, AMD stock has plummeted. Big deal. Ericsson did that too but got back on its feet (another Swedish example). Long term investors are folks like the Abu Dhabi-people with billions in their pockets. Don't think they look for return on their investment in 6 months, do you? Clearly there are people who believes in AMD, otherwise it would have gone belly up long time ago...

Sometimes belief isn't enough and AMD have done a remarkable job in many respects over the years, but what a time to have the double whammy of serious design missteps and a massive debt burden due to the purchase of ATI.

AMD is currently not taking a beating. Intel's new server CPUs aren't out yet. We don't know how they are going to perform (but we have had some hints). AMD can still use prices to stay somewhat competitive. And no one here knows exactly what either company is doing so I hate to bring it to you but all you're saying is purely speculation. Nothing more, nothing less.

Man, I don't think one needs to be Nostradamus to see how it is almost certainly going to play out(unless Intel have their own TLB bug at the Barcelona level in Nehalem) - just look at what Conroe did on the desktop in late 2006, all of 2007. But it does take a bit of effort I would imagine to say with a straight face, that there is a great deal of uncertainty at play here.

[highoctane]

It seems to me PII fits into its price point about right regardless of IPC differences, its not like the pII 940 is trying to be pawned off at $1000 or something.

[Donnie27]

Yeah, and that was how long ago? SAAB has been losing money since 1995, that's more than 13 years ago and they are still here (even though it might be their last as a car manufacturer). AMD has been losing money since 2006 according to you. That's not even close (and the amounts of money aren't close either). Both you and Shintai are pretty much expecting the doom for AMD but I'm quite sure the investors are a bit more long termed than 2-4 years.

And as said, AMD is now competitive with Intel in the markets that matter; server and mainstream. This is NOW, we don't know what the future brings but we can make guesses. My guess is that PII 940/945 isn't the fastest AMD has in pipeline until 2011 but I'm also guessing it won't be beating the offers that Intel has. It might still be competitive though (in mainstream/server market).

Donnie27 presents one of the best points.

Average Joe (or Svensson as we call it in Sweden) don't look at benchmarks. They buy what is believed to be sufficient for their needs and cost as little as possible. If Joe decides to ask his better informed friend which is best, the friend should be able to give advice on what to buy. This friend should not only be looking at performance but performance per buck and what Joe needs. If Joe only needs an Atom-powered netbook then that's what he should buy. Not an i7 965 with 2 GTX295s and 3TB with SSDs. Even if he's a rich guy. Maybe he needs a quad to play games, he wants something good and is willing to pay a bit but not too much. Maybe the PII with a dual videocard setup is the best buy for him. He could for the same amount of money chose an Intel system with the same performance but there's no real reason to choose sides at all.

If AMD manages to be competitive in this segment, it will most likely survive and maybe even make a small profit. Because this is were the money lies. AMD hasn't been pricing their chips too far off their performance and is clearly not doing it with the PII so I'm not too worried.

Thanks. You can say 9 positive things about AMD and 1 Negative then still be called Intel Biased. I don't see AMD going out of business. I see them sticking around after getting the UAE folks to buy into them. It will be a long time before Oil Money runs out.

I posted about 2 months ago that AMD doesn't have to "Beat" Intel or regain Speed Crown for bragging rights. That's what Fans want. Performance made Opterons favorites, not Fanboys here singing their praises.

[gallag]

I have a GM/SAAB (vauxhall vectra with a saab 2.0turbo) 228.8BHP AND 252LBFT, Sorry for the ot but saab make the best petrol turbo cars in the world and I am sure this is why gm keep them around.

[Donnie27]

It seems to me PII fits into its price point about right regardless of IPC differences, its not like the pII 940 is trying to be pawned off at $1000 or something.

I don't. I also know that HP, Dell and will pay a lot less than official prices as well.

Forums live and die on speculation.

[Miss Banana]

Sorry but you're really asking for the impossible; forget his attitude and concentrate on his numbers. Of course the setup is subjective, just like all other setups save those hand-picked by AMD for reviewers. Until we see another reviewer with a similarly configured system and different results you're blowing hot air for nothing. So this thread was actually about Kyle's attitude and not his numbers? Man, this is pathetic.

You know, it's you who doesn't get at all. I'm not saying Kyle wasn't Biased, in fact I most certainly agree he was. The point you seem to be too blind and can't see is that ALL of his reviews tilt towards seemingly whom ever is paying him the most ad dollars that cycle. Like it or not, Kyle's crappy review counts as well. Some of the reviews/ers didn't put Intel in the best light either, but that's why all of the reviews together matter.

It is about reviews of a new product and NOT only fan laced Pro AMD reviews.
The thread is "AMD Phenom II Review Thread" and NOT "AMD Phenom II Positive Cheerleading Thread". Make a thread like that and I'd not bother posting in it. Same reason I don't post but probably twice a year in the reality free zone known as the AMD sub section.

The only real thing childish here is your insistence on how much YOU can't seem to accept the results from some of the reviews. AMD LOST another round Miss and ALL of the reviews show it, so get over it. Most of MY posts here have been about the reviews. The only problem here is your childishly crying when results from the reviews don't go your way. You're danged right it is about Phenom II reviews, too bad some reviews don't show the results you (and others here) wanted to see.

It seems a bit challenging to get my point across to some of you.
I did not want to see anything Donnie, I was talking about reviews and saying that kyle's one sucks.
You then proceeded to be defensive regarding kyle's review.

Now Donnie, reading kyle's review, I do not see how you can not have a problem with that way of reviewing a product, without being extremely biased.

As for my opinion, kyle's results can not be trusted because he did not use the same amount of ram for platforms, and the speed of ram that the processors can handle.
Am I saying I have proof his numbers are off? Nope.
Am I saying Phenom II is better than what the general consensus is? Nope.

I am not even disappointed. I just shared my opinion about a review, which is what this thread is about.

On a sidenote, kyle's numbers ARE off, which can quickly be concluded by comparing his numbers to the several others reviews that are on the internet.


And zucker, I don't know what to say man, do you really think that when I say reviews should be more objective, I mean that all systems must be supplied by AMD?
If so, whatever dude, think whatever makes you happy.

[Donnie27]

I have a GM/SAAB (vauxhall vectra with a saab 2.0turbo) 228.8BHP AND 252LBFT, Sorry for the ot but saab make the best petrol turbo cars in the world and I am sure this is why gm keep them around.

They also make a nice little Fighter
http://www.avrosys.nu/aircraft/jakt/124JAS39-4.htm

Most folks will see F-20 Tigershark.

[marten_larsson]

Sometimes belief isn't enough and AMD have done a remarkable job in many respects over the years, but what a time to have the double whammy of serious design missteps and a massive debt burden due to the purchase of ATI.


Man, I don't think one needs to be Nostradamus to see how it is almost certainly going to play out(unless Intel have their own TLB bug at the Barcelona level in Nehalem) - just look at what Conroe did on the desktop in late 2006, all of 2007. But it does take a bit of effort I would imagine to say with a straight face, that there is a great deal of uncertainty at play here.

As I said, we have had some hints. But the current Opteron setup is not totally lost, and price will determine the faith of AMD's server CPUs. AMD will probably stay competitive but margins will decrease.

Donnie27:

Well some seem to give out that label pretty fast. And yeah, those oil dollars will be pouring in for quite some time. Could probably invest so much that Intel would be in serious trouble but highly unlikely, can't see that investment paying off. Better to invest as much to give AMD a chance to be competitive for performance crown (or to be generating positive cash flow) and then let it "manage" itself. There is clearly enough room for more than one CPU manufacturer and AMD is the only option to Intel that's got a chance currently.

Edit: Yeah, the JAS 39 Gripen is quite neat. Was a shame that or neighbour Norway chose the F22 Raptor instead. Would have made a lot of people in Sweden happy... Now here's a sector with A LOT of foul play... Hehe.

[MsB]

Is this off topic thread still alive and wasting bandwidth?

[Donnie27]

It seems a bit challenging to get my point across to some of you.
I did not want to see anything Donnie, I was talking about reviews and saying that kyle's one sucks.
You then proceeded to be defensive regarding kyle's review.

Now Donnie, reading kyle's review, I do not see how you can not have a problem with that way of reviewing a product, without being extremely biased.

As for my opinion, kyle's results can not be trusted because he did not use the same amount of ram for platforms, and the speed of ram that the processors can handle.
Am I saying I have proof his numbers are off? Nope.
Am I saying Phenom II is better than what the general consensus is? Nope.

I am not even disappointed. I just shared my opinion about a review, which is what this thread is about.

On a sidenote, kyle's numbers ARE off, which can quickly be concluded by comparing his numbers to the several others reviews that are on the internet.


And zucker, I don't know what to say man, do you really think that when I say reviews should be more objective, I mean that all systems must be supplied by AMD?
If so, whatever dude, think whatever makes you happy.

Actually, it is very easy to see understand your point. Please quote me defending Kyle's review? Then you break into rant about "childish" and etc.... I said I DIDN'T LIKE Kyle's review, need to me QUOTE IT? I said "

You know, it's you who doesn't get at all. I'm not saying Kyle wasn't Biased, in fact I most certainly agree he was. The point you seem to be too blind and can't see is that ALL of his reviews tilt towards seemingly whom ever is paying him the most ad dollars that cycle. Like it or not, Kyle's crappy review counts as well. Some of the reviews/ers didn't put Intel in the best light either, but that's why all of the reviews together matter.

How in the ^$%& is that defending Kyle? Please Open your eyes and mind, then look and read again!? It is amazing that I'm here talking about Kyle's crappy review. It takes nothing from the overall spanking Phenom 2 got. Even Intel Fanboys know that a better showing by AMD meant they don't have to wait 6 to 9 months for i5 to ship. Many dreaded seeing this and yes there are few loving these review results. Your comment about AMD getting Intel to cut prices is one the most absurd things I've read all day.

My point; I'll read the Phenom 2 reviews and take all of the Pro and Con alike with a big grain of salt, not blindly rely on a few that please me