Nanofluid tested with three different temperatures on a Q6600

[fart_plume]

Well to be perfectly honest plain water will cut copper given enough time at any flowrate and pressure above zero, it's called erosion(not trying to be smart alec just making a point). Given this fact unless your particles are smaller than a water molecule then they will accelerate the process, regardless of density of the material. The trouble is how much erosion will occur over a given timeframe in the typical WC'ing setup. Granted cpu, gpu blocks get changed when ever their is an upgrade so if the nano fluild takes ten years to show signs of wearing the block I think it would be safe enough on the blocks.

My concern isn't the blocks but the bearings in the pumps, because these small particles will get in between the impeller shaft and the bearing. If your particles are like bucky balls the bearings would actually last longer. Aleternitively if they are shaped like cubic zirconia crystals they will eat the bearings up in no time flat.

[rosco]

I thought I answered all the questions except what it is made of and the exact concentration/formula, which I won't until the patent comes back favorably, but I told you the density is close to water - extremely close.

Excuse me, but what do you want to patent ?? Nanofluids are known and developped since 90' and there's already a bunch of patents on them. With some previous posts here and on others forums, you simply buy some at Nanophase, dilute it (if you buy a concentrated solution) and put a surfactant to ensure colloidal stability, so where's the innovative value into that ? Nothing seems new. Every people working with this stuff does the same (except for nanofluids which don't need others chemicals and those who made their fluids themselves)...

Concerning the material, there's only a few possibilities for this particular color, the most common are aluminium oxide and zinc oxide. Given the very limited choice of materials provided by Nanophase and the fact you talk about zinc in your paper, the zinc oxide seems to be the one. Moreover, it's one of the cheapest nanofluid we can make/get (prices go up quickly), but far to be the most interesting concerning thermal aspects.

[fart_plume]

if it is a zinc oxide base then there will be problems with galvanic corrosion. Aluminum oxide would be worse.......

[gillbot]

Well to be perfectly honest plain water will cut copper given enough time at any flowrate and pressure above zero, it's called erosion(not trying to be smart alec just making a point). Given this fact unless your particles are smaller than a water molecule then they will accelerate the process, regardless of density of the material. The trouble is how much erosion will occur over a given timeframe in the typical WC'ing setup. Granted cpu, gpu blocks get changed when ever their is an upgrade so if the nano fluild takes ten years to show signs of wearing the block I think it would be safe enough on the blocks.

My concern isn't the blocks but the bearings in the pumps, because these small particles will get in between the impeller shaft and the bearing. If your particles are like bucky balls the bearings would actually last longer. Aleternitively if they are shaped like cubic zirconia crystals they will eat the bearings up in no time flat.

if it is a zinc oxide base then there will be problems with galvanic corrosion. Aluminum oxide would be worse.......

[warriorpoet]

if it is a zinc oxide base then there will be problems with galvanic corrosion. Aluminum oxide would be worse.......

No, because it's already oxidized; at least that is my understanding.

[relttem]

My concern isn't the blocks but the bearings in the pumps, because these small particles will get in between the impeller shaft and the bearing. If your particles are like bucky balls the bearings would actually last longer. Aleternitively if they are shaped like cubic zirconia crystals they will eat the bearings up in no time flat.

A valid concern. The nanoparticles are on the same order in size with a molecule of water. Your pump should have sealed bearings or it would rust from the water leaking in. I think rust would happen before any detriments due to the nanoparticles if your seal is broken.
With our lab experiments we had a copper plate that was coated with a high temperature paint. We were flowing the nanofluids thru clear PVC piping and high clarity lexan from GE Polymers test section. We had to have high clarity lexan because we were shining a laser onto the copper plate - which had to be painted black with a high temp paint so the laser would reflect. The nanofluid didn't have any effects on the painted copper plate - even after months of tests with Reynolds numbers up to 500,000 in a 2x2 section - that is some serious water velocity, so any sand-blasting effects would have been seen on the paint. Also, the lexan wasn't affected.
But, I will agree, over a million years you might see some wear and tear on a copper block.
I really don't have an answer for the 3M question. I don't think 3M really does any sort of cooling stuff. DowTherm does, but their niche is not electronic cooling. Also, this nanofluid stuff is new technology, maybe they just haven't gotten around to it yet. We were lucky that we had the Air Force to sponsor us.
I appreciate all the questions and comments - it keeps us honest.

[relttem]

if it is a zinc oxide base then there will be problems with galvanic corrosion. Aluminum oxide would be worse.......

I think you need an electric current for that to happen

[fart_plume]

Most pumps we use have ceramic bearings and the water is the lubricant in the pumps. Also the pumps we use primarily are mag-drive pumps so no seals are required other than to seal the pump top to the housing.

[rosco]

if it is a zinc oxide base then there will be problems with galvanic corrosion. Aluminum oxide would be worse.......

No. Nanoparticles are already in an oxidized form, they won't oxidize more. Chemicals reactions for galvanic corrosion occur between 2 pure metals or alloys, not with their oxidized forms in a simple watercooling with water (will require some current for example to initiate inverse reactions like electrolysis). Pure metallic nanofluids are generally more problematic because their nanoparticles will oxidize into water with dissolved oxygen and then the nanofluid looses a lot of its capabilities. Others fluids such oils are often required to use pure metallic nanoparticles and also specific one-step methods to produce them and avoid oxydation by air.

[fart_plume]

I think you need an electric current for that to happen

No, because the coolant will act as an electrolitic. You can never have perfectly neutral ph. and with different metals in a loop with the heat being transfered to the coolant you will generate the electric current that causes galvanic corrosion. so you have a self generating system of micro-elctric currents which eat away at one or the other metals in the loop.

Go check some of the threads showing the damage of having mixed metal loops.(yes there are ways to control this, but that is an added expense for how much benefit?).

[relttem]

Most pumps we use have ceramic bearings and the water is the lubricant in the pumps. Also the pumps we use primarily are mag-drive pumps so no seals are required other than to seal the pump top to the housing.

the ceramic's brinell hardness will be higher than the nanoparticles. I will have to look into this. But, I think due to the use of Copper that the ceramic would have to be stronger brinell-wise, and our nanoparticles are less than copper.

[NaeKuh]

Actually, I did get an early sample and I completely botched a couple of things...such as flow rate.

Dual Core Nanofluid Test

...but the formula has changed since. In my testing there was a slight gain in a low flow setting (~2ºC).

I completely disagree with the statement/concept of Nanofluid turning a single rad into the cooling capacity of a double or triple though.

bah i completely forgot about this test... (I take back on what i said about you chosing wrong people)

Cam can you take a picture of your block and pump used internals when you have time.

Look for hairline scratches to see if any is visable.

If you dont have the system up anymore.. then blah

[skinnee]

bah i completely forgot about this test... (I take back on what i said about you chosing wrong people)

Cam can you take a picture of your block and pump used internals when you have time.

Look for hairline scratches to see if any is visable.

If you dont have the system up anymore.. then blah

No worries...You were in Rabid Squirrel mode as gillbot put it (thanks for that btw, made my day).

I plan on doing more tests with the updated Nanofluid formula from relttem, that is if he is willing to send me a sample. I have changed the setup I was using during those tests. The only thing I can really point at in terms of cons to nanofluid was the tube staining and residue that was left behind in the reservoir. To me this happened at an accelerated pace with nanofluid compared to any other coolant I've used, was also much more difficult to clean than other coolant residue/staining.

However, I made relttem aware of this problem shortly after the first test and he stated they would look into any possible resolutions for the problem.

[fart_plume]

How about pump bearing damage?

[relttem]

How about pump bearing damage?

that was my brinell hardness response.. I will have to check on that. But, that is the way I am leaning.. I will let you know.

[fart_plume]

i should have been more specific, sorry. I was asking skinnee, since he has already tested it once.

Don't get me wrong the nano fluid sounds interesting, it's just that all concerns need to be laid to rest with data and pics.

[skinnee]

How about pump bearing damage?

that was my brinell hardness response.. I will have to check on that. But, that is the way I am leaning.. I will let you know.

Nothing evident...and the same goes for Naekuh's request on the block internals, nothing evident. There was more build-up on the Fuzion V1 inlet (slight lip on the washer where the cover meets the mid-plate), but this is versus distilled which has absolutely no build-up.

The only major difference between distilled and nanofluid was the residue and build-up throughout the loop. Every component in the loop had residue or build-up from the nanofluid, including the funnel I used for filling.

I will be using more instrumentation on the next round of tests, thats for sure.

[relttem]

The only thing I can really point at in terms of cons to nanofluid was the tube staining and residue that was left behind in the reservoir. To me this happened at an accelerated pace with nanofluid compared to any other coolant I've used, was also much more difficult to clean than other coolant residue/staining.

However, I made relttem aware of this problem shortly after the first test and he stated they would look into any possible resolutions for the problem.

That was a surfactant problem, which we are working on now. The surfactant, for those that don't know, is going to keep the nanoparticles separated in the fluid. If they agglomerate, which I have mentioned earlier as a problem, you have what is called "stokes settling", and this gets worse as more agglomeration occurs. The rate of agglomeration occurring is going to be a function of the available surface area. So, basically, the surface area doubles when two particles stick together and increases as more stick..that gives more mass, which is going to cause the particles to settle faster. But, we are definitely working on that because that, to us, is the most important thing.

[relttem]

Nothing evident...and the same goes for Naekuh's request on the block internals, nothing evident. There was more build-up on the Fuzion V1 inlet (slight lip on the washer where the cover meets the mid-plate), but this is versus distilled which has absolutely no build-up.

The only major difference between distilled and nanofluid was the residue and build-up throughout the loop. Every component in the loop had residue or build-up from the nanofluid, including the funnel I used for filling.

I will be using more instrumentation on the next round of tests, thats for sure.

sorry, I thought he was asking me about that..

[fart_plume]

Look at this way relttem we're going to ask hard questions here and not give up till we have answers and proof. If you can show us and convince this bunch of diehards, Your sure to have winner on your hands. So just hang in there.

[relttem]

i should have been more specific, sorry. I was asking skinnee, since he has already tested it once.

Don't get me wrong the nano fluid sounds interesting, it's just that all concerns need to be laid to rest with data and pics.

I totally agree..that is why we are sending this stuff out to get tested..pretty much to almost random people. The three on here that tested we recommended to us, as where the guy from Anandtech and Toms. The three on here ran similar but different tests, which gave pretty much the same results - within statistical error. HESmelaugh was our European tester and was able to run slightly different tests than the three here. And, he also got very similar results. Which, is a good thing. Again, I am all for answering your questions and trying my best to explain stuff. The last thing I want to do is sell some crap stuff.

[fart_plume]

I totally agree..that is why we are sending this stuff out to get tested..pretty much to almost random people. The three on here that tested we recommended to us, as where the guy from Anandtech and Toms. The three on here ran similar but different tests, which gave pretty much the same results - within statistical error. HESmelaugh was our European tester and was able to run slightly different tests than the three here. And, he also got very similar results. Which, is a good thing. Again, I am all for answering your questions and trying my best to explain stuff. The last thing I want to do is sell some crap stuff.

This is why I had brought up the bearing issue, most people don't even think of things like this, but due to my professional experiences a bearing failure just ruins your day. So on a high end system this would be especailly heart breaking.

Hopefully we can think of things your people haven't, and get them all covered, minimizing any possible failures.

[gillbot]

the ceramic's brinell hardness will be higher than the nanoparticles. I will have to look into this. But, I think due to the use of Copper that the ceramic would have to be stronger brinell-wise, and our nanoparticles are less than copper.

that was my brinell hardness response.. I will have to check on that. But, that is the way I am leaning.. I will let you know.

Brinell hardness has zero to do with wear. If you can cut steel with pure water, which i'm positive water "softer" than steel, what the hell does brinell hardness have to do with anything?

[relttem]

This is why I had brought up the bearing issue, most people don't even think of things like this, but due to my professional experiences a bearing failure just ruins your day. So on a high end system this would be especailly heart breaking.

Hopefully we can think of things your people haven't, and get them all covered, minimizing any possible failures.

I honestly never thought of it because I had thought that the pumps were all sealed bearings. But, when you mentioned ceramic bearings and water being used as a lubricant I thought about the pump manufacture that is making that set-up must have taken into consideration metal particles in the water; due to tightening of fittings, micro shavings from the block that weren't cleaned out..etc etc..and, for people that just use tap water in their system, eating up the bearings. They would have had to think of a way to get past that. One easy one would be to make the bearing harder than typical metals. That is why I thought that the ceramic bearings are probably harder than the metal. But, again, I will look into that some more.

[relttem]

Brinell hardness has zero to do with wear. If you can cut steel with pure water, which i'm positive water "softer" than steel, what the hell does brinell hardness have to do with anything?

who cuts steel with pure water?