AMD Shanghai/Deneb Review Thread

[ajaidev]

4ghz is possible with air on Ci7 with HT off, just look in the Ci7 ocing thread. The only problem are temps with HT on and they depend strongly on voltges.
It make a huge difference if HT is enabled or disabled, disabling HT reduces temps for ~10-15°C

3.8ghz is no problem on air for most Ci7 with HT on and a good aircooler such as a TRUE or a Noctua U12P. Everything above is still possible but temps get in the critical range 90°C+ so WC is recommended or disable HT.

Thanks for the HT tip i had no idea. We are right now on 3.6 Ghz with ULTRA 120 and the temp is stable at low 80's. We had tried to give it a boost at 4ghz and it went BSOD on us.

We did try 3.8ghz for about a week but the temps were really really high and there is always a risk that the summer sun would kill this perfect clock once summer comes around due to rise in Ambiance temp. Now i will try it again with HT off and report back.

[Hornet331]

Yeah HT is a real power hog.

But imho its worth it, i can get done ~33% more WUs at the same clock. And i know you feeling about temps, i also stoped at 3,6ghz with ~70°C (23°C ambient) cause in summer temps will raise for sure (33°C ambient still should stay around 80°C )

Sry for off-topic guys, just wanted to say that.

[Caveman787]

i7's limit is heat 3.6 is the stopping point essentially to keep the heat down, obviously if they both played to the tune of supernova heat 90*c+ then obviously we'd be able to push more out of the phenom II aswell.

But keeping the same heat envelope of ~ 60*c the i7 can reach 3.6 and deneb well we don't know yeat really but I'm gonna guess 4.0-4.2.

[TL1000S]

Thanks for the HT tip i had no idea. We are right now on 3.6 Ghz with ULTRA 120 and the temp is stable at low 80's. We had tried to give it a boost at 4ghz and it went BSOD on us.

We did try 3.8ghz for about a week but the temps were really really high and there is always a risk that the summer sun would kill this perfect clock once summer comes around due to rise in Ambiance temp. Now i will try it again with HT off and report back.

It's so off-topic, but I cannot resist to answer.
The whole point/advantage with Nehalem is HT!!!
Turning this off means a "fat Yorkie" (regarding die size). Huge price for same performance!
I would *never* consider this chip if it wasn't for HT and the corresponding *huge* increase in multitasking use/benches.
The "high" temps is no issue in daily use (mostly idle) and for gaming(not using multi-cores/HT).

[iocedmyself]

http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/articl...50aHVzaWFzdA==

I'm sure that's been seen by most here but still will link it (possibly again)

and right after i started writing this hornet kinda made my point for me with the 70c load in 23c ambient. Really not trying to start a flame war here, but lets be honest...hyper threading...cpu temps you can fry an egg on, this sound like oh i dunno...maybe the p4 reincarnite?

4ghz on air may be possible..on some chips in cool ambient temps but by no means is the norm i would think. Aside from that it's basically saying, "i7 bring back hyperthreading with clock speeds of 4ghz with air cooling! (so long as hyperthreading is disabled in most cases unless you dont mind your computer doubling as a space heater) Really, come on.

I'm not knocking the performance i'm just being objective here. I'm in a 24c ambient with Deneb clocked at 4.1 @ 1.55v atm as i'm working on XP clocks and it idles at 29-31c load temps haven't peeked above 43c running prime torture test. USing a duOrb cooler. So I7 getting a 10-15c drop down from 90c still equates to....dissapointingly hot IMHO.

At any rate to each his own. As many have pointed out phenom II's are a half step on the way to 6 core chips, and even at $300 for an early purchase of a 3ghz 940 PII chip that would hit 4ghz on air and needing nothing else for an upgrade i think will be more appealing.

60c for Denebs maybe if you have it heavily overvolted or box cooler under long and heavy loads, but really don't think so in many real world scenarios. I had the same cooler on my 9850 BE phenom and that idled usually at 45c with loads creeping up past 60c, in the same room, same case same ambient temps even at stock speeds. Many many times did that cut out to a BSOD from overheating when it would go past 65c. And i know full well how to properly apply a heatsink and AS5 if it's crossing anyones mind to question that. I've seen this chip go up to 51-52c when ambient has been raised and i had voltage at....less then safe levels Keeping in mind i have an ES chip, retail chips will have been tweaked and cleaned up a bit more so there is possibility that off the shelf chips will be able to get pushed further, and i should have a couple to play around with sometime soon, am trying to convince someone to let me fiddle with their 920 retail chip.

[Zucker2k]

i7's limit is heat 3.6 is the stopping point essentially to keep the heat down, obviously if they both played to the tune of supernova heat 90*c+ then obviously we'd be able to push more out of the phenom II aswell.

But keeping the same heat envelope of ~ 60*c the i7 can reach 3.6 and deneb well we don't know yeat really but I'm gonna guess 4.0-4.2.

That's a wrong summation; Ci7 can take heat more than Deneb, it's by design. Your Deneb won't overclock a damn if your core voltages reach anywhere near Ci7. As you guys would find out soon enough: Deneb needs to be kept cold in order to reach the 3.6, 3.8 Ghz range. A 60C t5emp may be the limit for Deneb, but it's certainly not the case for Ci7.

[Caveman787]

Zucker....

As always the AMD downer pill....

I would think most people wouldn't want to run their processor's 70*c+. Why because theey're likely to run into heat build up problem's and possible overheating of other component's.

Or as the case of some out there frying alive in thier houses

Sound like fun to you? then enjoy!

The fact is still that keeping either within sensible temps deneb will clock a few mhz higher and that's just on air.

[qurious63ss]

Zucker....

As always the AMD downer pill....

I would think most people wouldn't want to run their processor's 70*c+. Why because theey're likely to run into heat build up problem's and possible overheating of other component's.

Or as the case of some out there frying alive in thier houses

Sound like fun to you? then enjoy!

The fact is still that keeping either within sensible temps deneb will clock a few mhz higher and that's just on air.

Ahh... that's the beauty of C2Q, it will overclock crazy and stay cool while on average giving higher ICP then PII.

[Caveman787]

I still think deneb fully overclocked with overclocked nb/hypertransport will have a chance of being equal or a little faster then c2q.

[imsochobo]

Got phenom 1.

Crash is @ 84 C.

Orthos can run 24H at temperatures of 76, so no issue there, the limit is clearly not 60's.

Temperature decreases the max clock, there is no shock there, if you can run 4.2 ghz on air the first 10 minutes with orthos @ 60's but then goes over 70 and fail, you can probaly run 4-4,1 somewhere, easy as that.

Athlon x2's stop at 71 for my windsor 5600+ and the 5000+ brisbane stopped at 69.

according to their temp sensors.

My pentium 4 70 C idle and load, just no diffrence, and it died after a year, stock cooler, all stock settings.

[Hornet331]

i7's limit is heat 3.6 is the stopping point essentially to keep the heat down, obviously if they both played to the tune of supernova heat 90*c+ then obviously we'd be able to push more out of the phenom II aswell.

But keeping the same heat envelope of ~ 60*c the i7 can reach 3.6 and deneb well we don't know yeat really but I'm gonna guess 4.0-4.2.

zucker has a point, ever ran prime @ stock with stock cooling on a Ci7?

Temps get into the mid 80s.

Is it bad? Well that depends Ci7 only shows the worse temps on the whole core, there are several DTS in each Ci7 core and the worse temp is given out as Core temp.

I dont know how Phenom or Phenom2 handels that, if they have diodes at every hotspot as Ci7 does. If not you cant compare temps between Phenom and Ci7.

For my personal likeing i also dislike everything above 80°C, so i try to stay under this point.

I still think deneb fully overclocked with overclocked nb/hypertransport will have a chance of being equal or a little faster then c2q.

you forget on little thing -> if you clock a C2D you also increase the clock of the 2nd lvl cache and 2nd >>>> 3rd level cache.

[iocedmyself]

Yes zucker good summation, i7's kinda said "power efficiency....with performance....forget that, that's just greedy talk!"

No matter what the benchmarks may show on i7, truth is that it's still very far from perfected, the thermal envelope should be enough to show that fact. However, deneb can take alot more volts then I7 from what i've seen.

http://hothardware.com/Articles/Over...cessor/?page=5

While i've already shown that you can do 3.2 at 1.0875 on deneb (where as i7 takes 1.13 for 2.6) though you can actually go lower. keep in mind that that 3.8 i7 runs at around 1.37v.....and still gets that hot...and still has that high of power consumption. The link above shows 100-114w increase with cpu under load over idle. 316-368 between 3 and 4ghz with load. Phenom II load power consumption is below to I7's idle.


Denebs have a kill temp of 60 or 65c this is true, but as caveman pointed out, who the hell wants to run their chip at 70c if it can be avoided.

[Astennu]

Yes zucker good summation, i7's kinda said "power efficiency....with performance....forget that, that's just greedy talk!"

No matter what the benchmarks may show on i7, truth is that it's still very far from perfected, the thermal envelope should be enough to show that fact. However, deneb can take alot more volts then I7 from what i've seen.

http://hothardware.com/Articles/Over...cessor/?page=5

While i've already shown that you can do 3.2 at 1.0875 on deneb (where as i7 takes 1.13 for 2.6) though you can actually go lower. keep in mind that that 3.8 i7 runs at around 1.37v.....and still gets that hot...and still has that high of power consumption. The link above shows 100-114w increase with cpu under load over idle. 316-368 between 3 and 4ghz with load. Phenom II load power consumption is below to I7's idle.


Denebs have a kill temp of 60 or 65c this is true, but as caveman pointed out, who the hell wants to run their chip at 70c if it can be avoided.

You cant compare voltages from a AMD chip with those of a Intel chip.
Intel uses High K and AMD low k SOI. And there are many more differences. Chips can be designed for low or high voltages. Same goes for temperatures. So you cant compare them 1:1.

[Caveman787]

I love how they can't be compared when it comes to intel losing any portion of the battle but they can be if intel comes out on top

[qurious63ss]

Yes zucker good summation, i7's kinda said "power efficiency....with performance....forget that, that's just greedy talk!"

No matter what the benchmarks may show on i7, truth is that it's still very far from perfected, the thermal envelope should be enough to show that fact. However, deneb can take alot more volts then I7 from what i've seen.

http://hothardware.com/Articles/Over...cessor/?page=5

While i've already shown that you can do 3.2 at 1.0875 on deneb (where as i7 takes 1.13 for 2.6) though you can actually go lower. keep in mind that that 3.8 i7 runs at around 1.37v.....and still gets that hot...and still has that high of power consumption. The link above shows 100-114w increase with cpu under load over idle. 316-368 between 3 and 4ghz with load. Phenom II load power consumption is below to I7's idle.


Denebs have a kill temp of 60 or 65c this is true, but as caveman pointed out, who the hell wants to run their chip at 70c if it can be avoided.

I wonder how C2Q would do?? Only reason I'm asking is because it appears that C2Q performs slightly faster then PII so it would make it a fair comparison.

[Lastviking]

That's a wrong summation; Ci7 can take heat more than Deneb, it's by design. Your Deneb won't overclock a damn if your core voltages reach anywhere near Ci7. As you guys would find out soon enough: Deneb needs to be kept cold in order to reach the 3.6, 3.8 Ghz range. A 60C t5emp may be the limit for Deneb, but it's certainly not the case for Ci7.

Ci7 is good if you are freezing....its like a fire place... it loves high temps , i dont like have cpus that are 60c+ thats why i choice Phenom II instead of Ci7.... Maybe its dont clock high like the Ci7 with air and sucide screens...buts its looks its clocks very well under LN2 and are much cheaper than the Ci7 if you buying all the parts.

[TL1000S]

Seriously guys!
Are you really believing "temps" (*numbers*) reported by software?
Supposedly "measured" by some hardware within the core(s)?

I have several K8's that shows 5-10 degrees idle, and 30-40 full load (depending on clocks/volts).
I have had numerous Intel CPU's (P4, C2D, C2Q...) that shows completely different "numbers" between similar models/revisions.
Even seen that upgrading Bios results in 20+ degrees differences.

The *ONLY* way to compare *true* temps are by hardware mods to the CPU (installing probes).
ONLY compare temps for CPU's from a given model/installation!

Please also remember that many are not that clever when it comes to mounting heatsinks (ecpecially on S775).

As long as the system shows no signs of instability absolute numbers ("temps") are guidelines for you system/OC/volts.
This said most people (including myself) wants to see low numbers.

[iocedmyself]

Ci7 is good if you are freezing....its like a fire place... it loves high temps , i dont like have cpus that are 60c+ thats why i choice Phenom II instead of Ci7.... Maybe its dont clock high like the Ci7 with air and sucide screens...buts its looks its clocks very well under LN2 and are much cheaper than the Ci7 if you buying all the parts.

Well....i'm somewhat confused....if you're trying to say that phenom ii doesn't clock high like I7...that's backwards,

I personally already posted screenie a few pages back in this thread near 4.6. That's on air.

Official record on air for phenom II is 4.7

The world record for I7 with LN2 is 5.5

The world record for Phenom II is 6.3

Phenom II's clock higher than I7...no debate about that. They do it on air at about half the load temp, and no matter how you slice it system power consumption is a fraction of I7.

As far as chip temps go, i half agree, since thermal probe can clear that up, or IR thermometer at base of heatsink should be within a couple c of reported temp. It does depend on motherboard and whether or not the thermal probes got screwed up.

However, i will say again, that the reported temp is nothing near the INTERNAL tempatures at the hot spots which are usually 15-20c above anything accurately reported. Yes many are not savvy when it comes to installing heatsinks, but i would think that the majority of those that post in this forum can figure out how to mount a heatsink properly.

Regardless of software, bios is almost always accurate and shouldn't be much question as to validity if software reports similar temps. Bios, Asus AI, AOD, thermal probe and IR thermometer have ALL given temps within 1-2c of one another for me, and as far as I7 goes, again there is no debate on thier high temps.

[Mav451]

The world record for I7 with LN2 is 5.5

The world record for Phenom II is 6.3

Phenom II's clock higher than I7...no debate about that. They do it on air at about half the load temp, and no matter how you slice it system power consumption is a fraction of I7.

No one is doubting they clock higher, the problem is the PhII's IPC. It's not as good as the i7, so higher clocks is the only way to get around that. In that sense, does that 800Mhz clock advantage even matter in the WR? And for the air OCs, are those sufficient to compete with 45 Q9's? Particularly if people already get 1:1 the same clocks?

Don't get me wrong - I want to return to being pure AMD, but that's tough if it's not even winning the IPC department anymore, and then only marginally winning in the air OCs. If we know AMD requires more clocks just to be competitive, then the small difference in max OCs is no longer a positive, just a necessity

*mind you I'm still keeping hope, but only my heart is. My head is saying stop being optimistic, and to wait for more data come Jan 8th.

[Caveman787]

Price may be the only thing that deneb has to fall on.

But if that's the case it won't likely draw people back from intel.

[iocedmyself]

http://www.hardwarezone.com/articles...738&cid=2&pg=5

Without hyper threading i7 is doing 15k at 3.86ghz in cinebench, 18k with hyper threading
Phenom II does around 14k at 3.3 or 3.4 i think it was in 64bit will have to switch over and bench again now that i have a fresh instill (still looking for 64bit Xp disk) But even so not a drastic lead

diehard intel fans will stick with intel, diehard amd fans will stick with amd.

The other 90% of the consumer market will be based on price/performance and performance per watt, In both of those categories i think it's looking like AMD has a commanding lead.

When it comes to server enviorments AMD will be quite competitive again, especially since system power consumption and temps are such a conern as well as price. When comparing single socket and dual socket configs, AMD had 230w total system consumption compared to intels 320w for single socket, and dual socket amd was at 540 while intel was 760 i believe, something close to that anyway.

But here again i have to point out that AM3 is really about 6 core istanbuls which are only a few months away where intel still needs to iron out their 4core chips. Deneb are a stepping stone, that just happen to be surprising everyone including AMD.

[Hornet331]

http://www.hardwarezone.com/articles...738&cid=2&pg=5

Without hyper threading i7 is doing 15k at 3.86ghz in cinebench, 18k with hyper threading
Phenom II does around 14k at 3.3 or 3.4 i think it was in 64bit will have to switch over and bench again now that i have a fresh instill (still looking for 64bit Xp disk) But even so not a drastic lead

diehard intel fans will stick with intel, diehard amd fans will stick with amd.

The other 90% of the consumer market will be based on price/performance and performance per watt, In both of those categories i think it's looking like AMD has a commanding lead.

When it comes to server enviorments AMD will be quite competitive again, especially since system power consumption and temps are such a conern as well as price. When comparing single socket and dual socket configs, AMD had 230w total system consumption compared to intels 320w for single socket, and dual socket amd was at 540 while intel was 760 i believe, something close to that anyway.

But here again i have to point out that AM3 is really about 6 core istanbuls which are only a few months away where intel still needs to iron out their 4core chips. Deneb are a stepping stone, that just happen to be surprising everyone including AMD.

Intel already has a 6 core cpu (dunnington)
Also dont forget the L versions of the xeons, thos little suckers are just insane when it comes to power consumption. Not even the new Shanghais can competent with those.

[Ghostbuster]

http://www.hardwarezone.com/articles...738&cid=2&pg=5

Without hyper threading i7 is doing 15k at 3.86ghz in cinebench, 18k with hyper threading
Phenom II does around 14k at 3.3 or 3.4 i think it was in 64bit will have to switch over and bench again now that i have a fresh instill (still looking for 64bit Xp disk) But even so not a drastic lead

You've got the wrong review... that one was 32-bit. You should check the test setup.

For 64-bit this one http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/200...-965-review/10

[roofsniper]

according to amd engineers deneb can take a lot of heat. way more than what agena could.

[Lastviking]

Well....i'm somewhat confused....if you're trying to say that phenom ii doesn't clock high like I7...that's backwards,

I personally already posted screenie a few pages back in this thread near 4.6. That's on air.

Official record on air for phenom II is 4.7

The world record for I7 with LN2 is 5.5

The world record for Phenom II is 6.3

Phenom II's clock higher than I7...no debate about that. They do it on air at about half the load temp, and no matter how you slice it system power consumption is a fraction of I7.

As far as chip temps go, i half agree, since thermal probe can clear that up, or IR thermometer at base of heatsink should be within a couple c of reported temp. It does depend on motherboard and whether or not the thermal probes got screwed up.

However, i will say again, that the reported temp is nothing near the INTERNAL tempatures at the hot spots which are usually 15-20c above anything accurately reported. Yes many are not savvy when it comes to installing heatsinks, but i would think that the majority of those that post in this forum can figure out how to mount a heatsink properly.

Regardless of software, bios is almost always accurate and shouldn't be much question as to validity if software reports similar temps. Bios, Asus AI, AOD, thermal probe and IR thermometer have ALL given temps within 1-2c of one another for me, and as far as I7 goes, again there is no debate on thier high temps.

Dont get me wrong here

Phenom II clocks higher on LN2 than Ci7(buts its looks its clocks very well under LN2 and are much cheaper than the Ci7 if you buying all the parts"this is ++ things for Phenom II)

Ci7 clocks high on air(Phenom II also but its looks like Ci7 is abit stronger here but not much, but it can be becuse of that not all can buy Phenom II yet)

You did say Phenom II have done 4.7 on air...the Ci7 920 have also done that and many is doing 4.6 on air.

Dont get me wrong... i love Phenom II but i dont like "Zucker2k"


And one more thing 4.8 will soon be taken by air if i dont get a bad one (Phenom II 940BE)