Deneb just around the corner?

[Chad Boga]

Then why all the snappy post in responce to other people...If you are above these shinanigans then why partake in them....I read through this thread a few times,, (and yes you are aloud to stave your feelings on Deneb's projected performance...), you seem to have less useful info then a statement of why you feel it is going to be so slow.. If people want to dream, let them. I seen a lot of high hopes for i7 in the Intel threads, was that wrong? If someones hopes are defeated once 45nm chips come out from AMD, thet let it be. You can't change anyone's mind.. Besides, all we have are reports and speculation..if we sit and pretend none of it is true, how does that make anything better. No one thought 4800 series GPU's would force nVidia to lower pricing the way they did due to extreme compitition that was never there from the past. Again, why are you so bent on trying to prove something in here??

Do you have reading comprehension problems?

There is no equivalency here between my posts and those of my detractors.

I haven't said that if you think Deneb will get the IPC boost AMD are claiming that you are a troll who should be banned and various other insults, so why is that okay for others to say that about me for thinking Deneb won't get as big an IPC boost as AMD are claiming?

Also, what on earth is with your ridiculous argument that me stating my opinion on Deneb is trying to crush other people's hopes for Deneb?

By that "logic", debates and discussions can never take place because you are calling for ONLY uncritical positive praise for AMD.

That is not how a forum like this on a site like this is meant to operate, so stop asking me stupid questions like why I am here.

I am here for the reasons this forum exists in the first place, for discussion and debate.

That a group of fools think this forum should be a mirror image of an AMD propaganda forum like AMDZone, is not something I will adhere to and I suggest once again, that you stop acting like their useful idiot.

[roofsniper]

Do you have reading comprehension problems?

There is no equivalency here between my posts and those of my detractors.

I haven't said that if you think Deneb will get the IPC boost AMD are claiming that you are a troll who should be banned and various other insults, so why is that okay for others to say that about me for thinking Deneb won't get as big an IPC boost as AMD are claiming?

Also, what on earth is with your ridiculous argument that me stating my opinion on Deneb is trying to crush other people's hopes for Deneb?

By that "logic", debates and discussions can never take place because you are calling for ONLY uncritical positive praise for AMD.

That is not how a forum like this on a site like this is meant to operate, so stop asking me stupid questions like why I am here.

I am here for the reasons this forum exists in the first place, for discussion and debate.

That a group of fools think this forum should be a mirror image of an AMD propaganda forum like AMDZone, is not something I will adhere to and I suggest once again, that you stop acting like their useful idiot.

you seem to be the only one that is a fanboy and refuses to believe the facts. im completely fine if u think that the ipc won't be as high as amd says but u can't say others are wrong because they are just following what amd has said and this time around it looks like amd has gotten back together. its fine if you think that the chip will not be as good as most people think it is or what amd says but what i don't understand is how u can attack people's opinions when they are just going off what they have been told and going off of facts. i think everyone needs to calm down. you need to stop attacking people chad and stop with the name calling and live up to what you have said:

I am here for the reasons this forum exists in the first place, for discussion and debate.

if you notice the only people that are making comments towards you are the ones that you have attacked.

[Chad Boga]

you seem to be the only one that is a fanboy and refuses to believe the facts.

Sorry, what exactly are "the facts"?

but u can't say others are wrong because they are just following what amd has said and this time around it looks like amd has gotten back together.

But I can say as I have that I think the 15 to 20% IPC gains will not materalise across the board on any kind of reasonable average.

you need to stop attacking people chad

You have got it completely arse about face, if people stop attacking me first, then I wouldn't have anything to respond to.

if you notice the only people that are making comments towards you are the ones that you have attacked.

What absolute bullsh1t!!!!

Do you want to explain the efforts of the following clowns:

keithlm
soundood
informal
Throwed
Oliverda
Eson
Gener_AL (UK)
B.E.E.F.
biohead
knopflerbruce
Blaber

All of them attacked me first.

[informal]

Chad ,who ever claimed a 25% IPC improvement for desktop parts?? We are talking about Shanghai if you haven't noticed until now.It's a server part and server workloads are very different from desktop.
We have very limited sources of information about Deneb and most people here are just stating their opinions.
So quit beating the dead horse here and go to your beloved amdzone already.I'm sure you would feel as at home there with a lot of space for useless ranting.I don't know about their ban policies but i doubt you would get banned.

[Chad Boga]

Chad ,who ever claimed a 25% IPC improvement for desktop parts??

I have never mentioned 25% in any context, so I can't help you here.

We are talking about Shanghai if you haven't noticed until now.

So this thread title starts off with "Deneb" just to mislead?

We have very limited sources of information about Deneb and most people here are just stating their opinions.

As am I, but for some reason I am not allowed to apparently.

So quit beating the dead horse here and go to your beloved amdzone already.

Yet another nonsensical statement by you.

[charged3800z24]

Hope springs eternal.

No need for this comment,, not on topic..

So you do hold irrational hopes for Deneb and are unaware that it isn't a new architecture?

It not being released is irrelevant and in fact saves you from disappointment that will soon be yours.

Again, is this postive at all.. no.. you are not suggesting it will be slower, you must have already know it is or why would the disappointment be his...

LOL!!! How am I threatened?

What kind of tenuous grasp on reality do you have?

Is there something particularly special about the AMD section that I need to know about?

One thing I have noticed though in this section is a number of people holding quite irrationally optimistic views on Deneb's likely prospects.

They are aloud to this opinion..Some are a little sensitive yes.. but feeling strongly for something is not horrible...you are stongly holding to the "will not be spectacular" notion.. and that is fine.

Well not only do I not believe that there will be a 20% IPC boost in going from Phenom to Deneb, I am amazed how many people just believe what they want to believe, rather than what is likely.

Do you have the breakdown of both process's 65nm and 45nm to prove that there is nothing that "might" do more then this? And not being to picky but Deneb is Phenom, 65nm is agena and 45 nm is Deneb...

Ahhhh so you are all bluster and are easily exposed when called upon it.

Face it, Deneb will clearly have less IPC than Penryn and will be lucky to equal Conroe.

So here you are pressing that AMD can't even match Intel, Even though Intel has same gen processors running sdame clocks but higher cache count and thus faster, more so with the "die shrink"

My postings other than responding to irrational fanboy attacks made against me, have been to discuss the unlikelyhood of Deneb being 15 to 20% better in IPC.

For this great sin, mental midgets such as yourself have referred to my posts as trolling.

Here again why dunb yourself down to someone else's level if are not here to attack with comments back like "mental midgets"

So I am supposed to let a gang of morons run me out of town?

Wake up for 's sakes.

You are not being consistent in respect of other posters by the standards you are judging me on and because of that, I feel no need nor is there a need, for me to justify myself to you.

I shouldn't need to point out that because I had the temerity to think Deneb would only get a 10% IPC boost, that this has attracted an insane level of vitriol being directed at me by various nutjobs and you are falling into the trap of being their useful idiot.

Step out of the Twilight Zone people.

Like I said, feel free to speculate, but brings facts to why, besides that "it is just a die shrink" If there is proof that nothing else they have done from one process to the next is not enough to aid in any general boost then lay it out. We can discuss it. There are still soem of us wiling to do this and speculate some more till results hit the net..

Do you have reading comprehension problems?

There is no equivalency here between my posts and those of my detractors.

I haven't said that if you think Deneb will get the IPC boost AMD are claiming that you are a troll who should be banned and various other insults, so why is that okay for others to say that about me for thinking Deneb won't get as big an IPC boost as AMD are claiming?

Also, what on earth is with your ridiculous argument that me stating my opinion on Deneb is trying to crush other people's hopes for Deneb?

By that "logic", debates and discussions can never take place because you are calling for ONLY uncritical positive praise for AMD.

That is not how a forum like this on a site like this is meant to operate, so stop asking me stupid questions like why I am here.

I am here for the reasons this forum exists in the first place, for discussion and debate.

That a group of fools think this forum should be a mirror image of an AMD propaganda forum like AMDZone, is not something I will adhere to and I suggest once again, that you stop acting like their useful idiot.

I never said that everyone else was not responding wrongly towards you, but you have made some snappy post in regaurds to them. I have some above... Not all your post were bad, and yes there were more in regaurds to you from others here..and I apologize for that. No one should feel unwelcome here cuase they have another view on the matter. But can we get back to the facts and or hear say floting around.. and discuss what might be..and if someone wants to dream.. can they be free to.

[Chad Boga]

Like I said, feel free to speculate, but brings facts to why, besides that "it is just a die shrink" If there is proof that nothing else they have done from one process to the next is not enough to aid in any general boost then lay it out. We can discuss it. There are still soem of us wiling to do this and speculate some more till results hit the net..

No one without direct access to Deneb results knows whether the IPC improvements will come in at the high end or low end of expectations, so I can't see any reason for why one view should be hailed and the other condemned.

As I have already stated, I hope that the people believing the high end improvements come about are right, but I have expressed why I suspect they won't be.

The reason for this is at least the following:

1. I am not convinced that the improvements to the core will be that much more significant than is usually the case when a core gets a shrink and cache added.

Yes AMD have stated that they are going to tidy some things up, but do you really think that doesn't happen with other shrinks?

2. What has been the best IPC improvement we have seen from a combined shrink, cache increase and problem fixes we have seen in the last 15 years?

No one has been able to come up with another time where from what Deneb will be going through, IPC has increased to the extent AMD are claiming.

[EvilBlitz]

Shangai is Deneb, just for anyone thinking they are different. The only difference is that Shanghai is validated as a server part and wont use plain old DDR2/3(though thats probably more a bios/board implementation issue).

Shanghai/Deneb is more than just a die shrink, AMD has already stated this before.... However, I get the feeling it is more tweaks rather than any large wholesale changes. Eg, widening data paths, or enlargening TLBs etc.

Some parts they are transferring are not really optmised much. AFAIK there is something about them using the same cells for the L3 cache at 45nm as they did at 65nm, so the L3 cache density won't improve that much. This makes the die larger than it would be. Intel has always had the best cache density unfortunately.

However there are some drawbacks, this is supposedly their 1st implementation of the 45nm so clocks etc wont be as good as they should be, however the yields are good and clocks are better than expected.
I know magny cours the 6die is the 1st to use improved 45nm process, dont know how quickly they will shift the rest of production to that.

Im still putting my money on an avg ipc increase of 10-15%, closer to 15%. However its the better than expected clocks they will get that will help close the gap. Of course there will be selected benchmarks, esp on server Shanghai/Deneb will look really good.
However Nehalem 2P servers come out 2009, so AMD won't have the lead for very long.
Finally, I really like AMD, and only use AMD, but anyone thinking Shanghai/Deneb has a chance of beating Nehalem is smoking crack. Note that in the leaked internal AMD memo even they did NOT claim absolute performance leadership. Just performance per watt leadership.
AMD next chance to take the leadership crown is with Bulldozer, until then they will be competitive on price and performance per watt but thats it.

[demonkevy666]

Shangai is Deneb, just for anyone thinking they are different. The only difference is that Shanghai is validated as a server part and wont use plain old DDR2/3(though thats probably more a bios/board implementation issue).

Shanghai/Deneb is more than just a die shrink, AMD has already stated this before.... However, I get the feeling it is more tweaks rather than any large wholesale changes. Eg, widening data paths, or enlargening TLBs etc.

Some parts they are transferring are not really optmised much. AFAIK there is something about them using the same cells for the L3 cache at 45nm as they did at 65nm, so the L3 cache density won't improve that much. This makes the die larger than it would be. Intel has always had the best cache density unfortunately.

However there are some drawbacks, this is supposedly their 1st implementation of the 45nm so clocks etc wont be as good as they should be, however the yields are good and clocks are better than expected.
I know magny cours the 6die is the 1st to use improved 45nm process, dont know how quickly they will shift the rest of production to that.

Im still putting my money on an avg ipc increase of 10-15%, closer to 15%. However its the better than expected clocks they will get that will help close the gap. Of course there will be selected benchmarks, esp on server Shanghai/Deneb will look really good.
However Nehalem 2P servers come out 2009, so AMD won't have the lead for very long.
Finally, I really like AMD, and only use AMD, but anyone thinking Shanghai/Deneb has a chance of beating Nehalem is smoking crack. Note that in the leaked internal AMD memo even they did NOT claim absolute performance leadership. Just performance per watt leadership.
AMD next chance to take the leadership crown is with Bulldozer, until then they will be competitive on price and performance per watt but thats it.

there are picture some where the die is actually slightly smaller now, in one video he stated improve SSE.

[roofsniper]

No one without direct access to Deneb

Shangai is Deneb, just for anyone thinking they are different. The only difference is that Shanghai is validated as a server part and wont use plain old DDR2/3(though thats probably more a bios/board implementation issue).

yea they are pretty much the same but talk about them is different. people might say shanghai has a 25% ipc improvement but that would be in server applications. the same 25% ipc improvement can not be compared to the performance of deneb. but if shanghai does well then most likely deneb will do well.