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Thread: Project: make it a double

  1. #1
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    Project: make it a double

    Hi!

    Some of you may remember the post I started about using car radiators. Since the beginning of the thread some time has passed so if anyone thought I had just given up the project after long and apparently useless discussion I and apologize for the delay. I have been extremely busy at university and most of the time I give top priority to anything which could benefit me on the long run as far as my education and career is concerned. I do however take pride in finishing what I begin so here I am.

    Project name: Make it a double!

    introduction

    You may remember that I had chosen a 140 l/min 10m head pump. It could have been the perfect solution but it had one fatal flaw. It was built for temporary uses and not continuous as mag pumps are. My first experiments ended in tragedy. The pump literally burned down during a 2 days and 2 nights stress test in a small service bathroom, recirculating water under no constriction from a tub and back into the tub. The chassis turned so hot the circuitry was damaged and the capacitor somehow leaked. I understood my mistake and looked for a mag. driven pump. I will make a long story short: I went for iwaki pumps. The model is the MD-30RZ but for this project I needed muscle so I bought 2 for $40 + shipping. Powered with a step down converter I hooked them in series to provide a whopping 16m head pressure.





    Most of you will almost immediately point out that the pump has a massive heat dump. True but I have a solution. Loving symmetry I installed 2 AUDI TT radiators in series to provide for enough cooling for my rig and the pumps.

    The loop works as follows: pump1  pump2  radiator 1  radiator 2  ek supreme

    The radiators

    The Radiator are both 44x 66 cm. However they are not identical. The one which is mounted towards the exterior and features an impressive fin and pipe density. The number of fins makes it almost impossible to mount any normal type of fan array in order to achieve adequate cooling at a reasonable noise level. Thinking about this I chose to add a second radiator. This specific model was designed to provide cooling for less performing audi tts so it features larger pipes and less fin density. This was ideal to achieve maximum cooling efficiency whilst providing for some degree of “flow through” air movement. Both radiators are sandwiched as can be seen in the photograph and sufficient space is left between them for air to rise and dissipate heat by convection.













    Heat dump

    My calculations were fairly simple. A single radiator might be seen as a sheet of metal. With no active cooling it is essentially a plate. Therefore I can confidently say that radiating surface is almost equal to 2,904cm^2 take two radiators and we have 4 surfaces which makes the total surface area equal to 11,616cm^2. Let us say that we have an overall 80% efficiency of these 4 surfaces and we get an equivalent radiating surface of about 9292,8cm^2. Now let us assume that I have a total heat dump of 600w (way off considering that I only have 80w of pump heat and 200w at most of cpu heat). This means that I have 0,065w per square cm to dissipate. Not difficult to achieve under passive conditions!

    Setup

    The outmost radiator will dissipate the initial heat from the cpu and pumps. When the water is done travelling through the radiator then it will be fed in the second radiator which will not provide as much restriction and help shave of the residual heat. From there the coolant will travel to the ek supreme and back to the pumps. Tubing is ½ inch on ½ barbs. Equivalent barbs are used on all connections so as to avoid changes in pressure within the tubing.


    The coolant is a mixture of distilled + paraflu radiator coolant (80:1 ratio should be enough to prevent corrosion).




    here you can see the realy switch connected to my fan plugs on the mobo. the blue LED signals nominal activity.






    Temperatures

    load @ stock 1.24v



    and load @ 3.6 ghz 1.6V!!!



    Observations:

    1.the Ek supreme will restrict flow. No big surprise there. What comes as a surprise is that the low pressure part of the loop (suction from the ek to the pumps) will collapse the tubing. No matter how thick the tubing will visibly collapse under the negative pressure. The stronger the pumps the stronger the negative pressure. It does not hinder performance but it still is a nasty surprise given that it is all stress being applied to the tubing. I use clamps to keep the tubing in shape.


    Hope you enjoy!

    P.s. important edits

    1) TIM: coolaboratory metla liquid pro

    2) naked dies: if anyone is interested check my thread on removing HIS

    3) the noise is not terrible but you can definetely hear the pumps

    4) the setup is entirely passive but I have an idea to add inferior fans to achieve convection type cooling (under the radiator sandwich that is)

    5) the EK is not adequately engineered to work with naked Dies. I have core 3 and 4 running 6-10°C cooler than the other two. I will have to lap the ek!

    added a picture of my assembly...so that you can see that the final result can be quite clean even qith exterior tubing...



    the insides of the radiator assembly. Exterior rad is on the lef. interior and last pass rad is on the right.

    Last edited by Alexontherocks; 09-28-2008 at 02:04 AM.
    Watercooled by:
    ek supreme
    2 iwaki md-30rz in series
    2 Audi tt 44x66cm car radiators....

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  2. #2
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    Geez... now THAT is what some people might call OVERKILL. Not me though, I love the cold. A Quad loading at 40C running at 1.6V, nice job . Moving your system could be a tad difficult however

  3. #3
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    thanks! I know it is overkill but this is what this forum is all about!

    The system is fixed but as long as I can remove the ek I am free to move the case around. I like the "cascade" look of the tubing

    I will look into the fan idea but as far as I am concerned this is already good enough.

    Also I believe I have now one the most extreme systems in terms of radiator area per W (watt) on this site!

    further small edit:

    1) removing a second pump will increase temperatures by 1°C/2°C. I may have to install a switch to activate the second pump when benching maybe..

    2) the radiators are warm to the touch both of them! I would have never guessed that only a cpu would create this much heat. We are talking about a quad @ 1.6v and 3.6 ghz though.

    3) the temperatures crept to 45°C on cores 1/2 and 42°C on cores 3/4
    Watercooled by:
    ek supreme
    2 iwaki md-30rz in series
    2 Audi tt 44x66cm car radiators....

    The Ultimate Tribute to Radiators...

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  4. #4
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    WOW!! thats xtreme, the same goes for your power bill. Just a noob question, can´t one of your monster pump do the job(less noise and less power used). Maybe on of these will be of help to you, if you need a fan. The quad is not your source of heat dumps, the pumps are and a fan will do you a lot of good. Moreover 1~2°c show that the second pump is not needed.

    http://www.caseking.de/shop/catalog/...er::11059.html
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    Last edited by Shocker003; 09-24-2008 at 02:17 AM.


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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shocker003 View Post
    WOW!! thats xtreme, the same goes for your power bill. Just a noob question, can´t one of your monster pump do the job(less noise and less power used). Maybe on of these will be of help to you, if you need a fan. The quad is not your source of heat dumps, the pumps are and a fan will do you a lot of good. Moreover 1~2°c show that the second pump is not needed.

    http://www.caseking.de/shop/catalog/...er::11059.html
    AHAH you are right about my power bill.....Regarding the pumps I have a variable system. The second pump can be activated by a switch. It may come in hndy if I intend to bench in the future with several vgas TECs.

    The fan is certainly welcome bu the problem is that I do not have a lot of space between the radiaotrs and money in my wallet this means that I will have to find a cheap and slim giant fan (or two of them). If I position them between the radiators I should be able to have cold air being pulled through the second one, through the fans and through the first radiator. The thermal exchange should be vastly superior with fans.

    I also thought of having 4 fans positioned under the radiators so that rising air will increase convection. It would be a ghetto solution but it may work. Also it could provide stimulus for those who have radiators and do not wish to have 10+ fans.

    anyway thanks for the input. And by the way keep it coming guys! This is my first ever liquid cooling project so I am excited and eager to fine tune the system.



    p.s. actually the drop of 1-2-3-4°C might indicate that I am approaching the limit of passive cooling and war pockets of air are forming between the radiators. Possibily with increased airflow I should be able to achieve better temperatures with the 2nd pump running.

    P.p.s you should hear the monster growl at startup.....it is actually intimidating. The tubing on the ow side shrinks and kinks (an it is industrial tubing) and the radiators are lit with blue leds....

    ah this is my system now...the room is messy but as you can see the radiators fit nicely!
    th second one is behind the first one.

    Last edited by Alexontherocks; 09-24-2008 at 03:11 AM.
    Watercooled by:
    ek supreme
    2 iwaki md-30rz in series
    2 Audi tt 44x66cm car radiators....

    The Ultimate Tribute to Radiators...

    Daily:




  6. #6
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    Never such a thing as Overkill...

    Im glad you finished, a project that go away from the "norm" is great to see.

    But still i wonder how it would do with some active cooling. Passive cooling does not bode well in vegas.

  7. #7
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    Hey Alex,

    Nice work. Glad to see You got things sorted out! I've added a 2nd rad to my setup, but for a different purpose.
    On the 2nd rad I have mounted 2x of these in push/pull:

    PROCOMP 14" INCH ELECTRIC COOLING RADIATOR FAN CURVED

    At 5v they run well and are pretty quiet.....quieter then the 2 Iwakis I would guess. They are available in 10", 12",
    14" and 16". The 14" is only 3" thick at center and polarity can be reversed to push or pull. At 5v they still move a
    lot of air and do it quietly. 1x would probably do everything you need.

    Glad to see You are up and running!

  8. #8
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    nice! this is one extreme system...
    btw, what happened to the (2) audi tt's? now using fesers...

  9. #9
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    wow pretty cool

  10. #10
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    Well toi begin with this is technically a variable system......I have only pump running now and it is more than enough.....@ 1.55v I get 37 37 34 32(!) on all 4 cores with ambient @ 24 and 3.6ghz.

    Thew second pump is hooked to a switch....If I feel like there is need for it (probably with an active cooling setup) I will activate it...

    The audi tts are happily sitting in a junk yard..

    As for the fans I would happily install them but I can't seem to get hold of cheap ones....I don't feel like spending much more money on the project now that the results are this good.

    anyway thanks for the comments but really I feel there is much I owe this forum and the users here who inspired me and gave me advice when needed.

    so.....

    Big thanks to xtremesystems forum for all the support

    and guys, please let us keep the forum as it has been for me: helpful and inspiring. I read the thread about the kid leaving because of the fanboism...It is sad because I have always received positive feedback and would like to think that this is best place on the web to get that kind of support.

    Sorry for the off topic....

    Alex
    Last edited by Alexontherocks; 09-24-2008 at 08:24 AM.
    Watercooled by:
    ek supreme
    2 iwaki md-30rz in series
    2 Audi tt 44x66cm car radiators....

    The Ultimate Tribute to Radiators...

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  11. #11
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    Suddenly I feel so inadequate.

    Nice super build man. Not one but two humongous radiators and two monster pumps.

  12. #12
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    Nooooooooooo I am already thinking of a third radiator!

    damn guys, this is getting out of hand. But seriously I am looking into "inducing convection" by placing fans under the radiator pushing air to the top....I will try now so keep on following the thread.. I will post result.
    Watercooled by:
    ek supreme
    2 iwaki md-30rz in series
    2 Audi tt 44x66cm car radiators....

    The Ultimate Tribute to Radiators...

    Daily:




  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueAqua View Post
    Suddenly I feel so inadequate.

    Nice super build man. Not one but two humongous radiators and two monster pumps.
    Me too!

    This is some serious raddage right there boys!

  14. #14
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    Passive watercooling FTW!
    Where can I find those radiators? How much did they cost?
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  15. #15
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    This is exactly the kind of stuff that you have to explain to everybody that sees it, because they don't understand.

    Nice temps.
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  16. #16
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    don't hate me guys.....



    p.s. the date and time is wrong because I reset my cmos. IT is now 15:08 in Italy and ambient is 20°C (aircon)

    P.s. the radiators are not important. I found them at a local dealer shop but any radiator is fine, just add anticorrosion fluid and be sure to adequetly seal them (pain in the a@@ if you have a strong pump)

    and notice that my core 1 and 2 temperatures are always higher....the ek supreme will be lapped as soon as possibile. I reckon I will seen uniform temperatures across all cores closeer to core 3 and 4.
    Watercooled by:
    ek supreme
    2 iwaki md-30rz in series
    2 Audi tt 44x66cm car radiators....

    The Ultimate Tribute to Radiators...

    Daily:




  17. #17
    Xtreme Enthusiast Shocker003's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ownage View Post
    Passive watercooling FTW!
    Where can I find those radiators? How much did they cost?
    Exactly Please can you post a link to an online shop or ebay, where one get it.


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  18. #18
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    ehm well it is not hard guys.... just type audi tt radiator on ebay.

    Personally I got hold of them through an acquaintance so I am not sure about ebay but here you go:

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/00-05...mZ250291527570

    of course you may want to check your nation ebay for some offers.

    P.s. Any radiator will do fine. It is just a question of getting a big and cheap one. That is up to you according to what you can find/afford in your countries. I was lucky enough to get hold of 2 for 110 euros whereas in Italy I would normally have paid something like 180 euros +. Also make sure you ahve the correct plumbing: the pressure will be an important issue and so will !leak control". I would avoid plastic but it is up to you if you wish to mod a raditor as I have done....

    also be sure to have adequate support. The suckers get heavy when full of water.
    Watercooled by:
    ek supreme
    2 iwaki md-30rz in series
    2 Audi tt 44x66cm car radiators....

    The Ultimate Tribute to Radiators...

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  19. #19
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    haha that is INSANE!
    24/7 Setup: Asus maximus x38 / E8500 E0 (500x8) Dtek Fuzion / Ballistix old rev 4-4-4-4 @ 1000MHz / 2900XT Ek fullcover cf / Silverstone TJ-07

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  20. #20
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    great news......I added some fans to induce convection between the two radiators and guess what? 4 fans at 6v will dramatically increase efficiency.... the radiators are now room temperatures and the temperatures dropped 2-3°C.

    here is a pic of the setup. A bit ghetto with zipties but it works.



    you can see that now the fans operate by inducing convection between the 2 plates. The upwards motion of cold air from the ground will induce the "little" flow which is needed to boost coolin efficiency.

    I hope this provides some insight fro those of you who wish to try this route.
    Watercooled by:
    ek supreme
    2 iwaki md-30rz in series
    2 Audi tt 44x66cm car radiators....

    The Ultimate Tribute to Radiators...

    Daily:




  21. #21
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    this keeps on getting better and better....the system is as loud as before but look at my temps...and this is not even pushing it!



    edit: seeing that air con is wasteful and not necessary right now I turned it off and I have an ambient temp of 24°C
    Watercooled by:
    ek supreme
    2 iwaki md-30rz in series
    2 Audi tt 44x66cm car radiators....

    The Ultimate Tribute to Radiators...

    Daily:




  22. #22
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    Now this is just silly.........

    1.688v 3.6ghz and I get with an ambient of 24°C this:



    direct link:

    http://i365.photobucket.com/albums/o...loadxtreme.jpg

    this is just insane.....

    can I rightfully claim the watercooling crown for just one day?

    Alex
    Watercooled by:
    ek supreme
    2 iwaki md-30rz in series
    2 Audi tt 44x66cm car radiators....

    The Ultimate Tribute to Radiators...

    Daily:




  23. #23
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    Small question.....what is the tjunction value for a q6600? 95°C or 100°C ?
    Watercooled by:
    ek supreme
    2 iwaki md-30rz in series
    2 Audi tt 44x66cm car radiators....

    The Ultimate Tribute to Radiators...

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  24. #24

  25. #25
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    added pics...
    Watercooled by:
    ek supreme
    2 iwaki md-30rz in series
    2 Audi tt 44x66cm car radiators....

    The Ultimate Tribute to Radiators...

    Daily:




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