Thermalright Unveils True Copper Ultra-120 Extreme Coolers

[Bo_Fox]

Regarding all this debate over copper vs. aluminum.. let me tell you from years of my fetish with customizing my own heatsinks... I've customized them in so many different creative (unique) ways that none of you guys have ever done that I've gotten so close to patenting a few of the designs.

In short words:

Copper fins are better for high-speed air flow.
Aluminum fins are better for low-speed air flow. (EDIT: cheaper and lighter, plus the difference from copper is not really noticeable)



I know for a fact that copper is more efficient at heat transfer as long as the air flow is fast enough. Say, if copper can transfer heat more quickly from the base to the heatpipes than aluminum, the copper fins might just as well transfer more quickly via HIGH air pressure/flow. Many of us only pay attention to the CFM of air flow, while overlooking another important aspect of the inch or mm-H20 (or Hg) of the air pressure. For example, Thermaltake's Volcano 12 fan (which is 80mm x 32mm and has only 3 blades -- http://www.thermaltake.com/product/C...il/A1745/a1745 ) exerts higher pressure than a similar 5-blade fan operating at the same RPM. It actually gives lower CFM than a 5-blade fan would, but the pressure more than makes up for it (given that the fan is 38mm thick rather than 25mm). The noise generated remains pretty much the same.

It is very important for the copper fins to remain as thin as possible and also as close together as possible, while being optimally soldered to the heatpipes. As long as the dust does not build up, it is what made Thermalright's XP-90c perform better than the larger XP-120, at 2000+rpm fan speeds.

Although aluminum fins do pretty well with heatpipes, copper is just better if you have at least a 2000+ rpm fan blowing directly on it. I do not know exactly what the threshold would have to be (airflow CFM and air pressure) in order for copper fins to be more efficient than aluminum, but let's just say 2000 rpm for most heatpipe heatsinks out there. Zalman's hugely popular CNPS9700 would be nowhere nearly as good if the fins were aluminum instead of copper. On that heatsink, aluminum fins would perform just as well as copper only if it came with a super-quiet fan (say, 1500 rpm max). For fan-less heatsinks, aluminum is a god-send!

[sxs112]

Best New Information

True Copper Ultra-120 Extreme Coolers The weight is 1.8KG

before wrong

[tiro_uspsss]

Best New Information

True Copper Ultra-120 Extreme Coolers The weight is 1.8KG

before wrong

lol

[Biker]

Best New Information

True Copper Ultra-120 Extreme Coolers The weight is 1.8KG

before wrong

Bah!

There goes my plan to become a Copper dealer

[ryboto]

Although aluminum fins do pretty well with heatpipes, copper is just better if you have at least a 2000+ rpm fan blowing directly on it. I do not know exactly what the threshold would have to be (airflow CFM and air pressure) in order for copper fins to be more efficient than aluminum, but let's just say 2000 rpm for most heatpipe heatsinks out there. Zalman's hugely popular CNPS9700 would be nowhere nearly as good if the fins were aluminum instead of copper. On that heatsink, aluminum fins would perform just as well as copper only if it came with a super-quiet fan (say, 1500 rpm max). For fan-less heatsinks, aluminum is a god-send!

At any fan speed, copper is a better material for heat transfer vs aluminum. I have done term papers on this, it's thermodynamic fact. My Zalman did come with a low speed fan(1500rpm is in no way at all super-quiet, you don't see that until you go below 1000rpm), and it worked fine. Unless you can show us some testing results proving your assertion, it's just wrong to make these kind of claims about copper v. aluminum. The heat transfer from the material to the air is a function of the air and temperature delta, not a function of the material.

[Spawne32]

Hi Rob,

All of that is just speculation right now under planning.
No definite date has been released yet as it is still in pre-production
stage.

Best Regards,
Hank Peng
Customer Relations/ Product Marketing/ Public Relations
: www.thermalright.com

[ryan92084]

from my understanding of just basic principles

1)copper gives you lower cpu temps while causing your case to heat up more quickly under load
2)alluminum gives you a higher cpu temp but heats your case up more slowly
3)under a constant load with inadequate ventilation both sinks will even out eventually (after the internal case temperature stabilizes, this should happen faster on the copper which might be why people think its worse)
4)under constant load with adequate vetilation (including cool air intake) the copper cooler will perform better

[NotFred]

My take on the Copper Vs Aluminium argument:

Alternative way of visualising things, working backwards (I find this easier):

Let’s consider the computer as a single unit. It has energy going in from the power cable, and energy leaving in the form of hot air.

No matter what is going on inside with different heat sinks etc, we have the same energy going in. Also, for the same case, we have the same amount of airflow produced by the fans, and so the same volume of air leaving the case.

For a steady state, the energy entering and leaving the system must be the same. Therefore, for a fixed energy input, and a fixed airflow, we must stabilise at a fixed temperature of the air leaving the case, no matter what we have changed inside.

How does this affect our CPU? The heat sink provides a temperature gradient between the CPU and the case air. The better at conducting heat the heat sink is, the shallower this gradient can be (i.e the closer in temperature the CPU can be to the air). This means that, as case air temperature is fixed for a given heat input and airflow, a heat sink with higher conductivity will give a lower CPU temperature, as there will be a lower temperature gradient between the CPU and the air.

[cegras]

I was just reading thru this thread and I've come to a few conclusions:
1) Lots of people like to argue any point at all just for the sake of arguing!
2)A great many of you people are a hell of a lot smarter than I am.
3) I always thought copper was used for the base and alum used for the fins as copper transferred heat faster but aluminum dispersed the heat faster.
That's what I think not know and reading here I may well be wrong.
4) Pretty looking heatsink.
5) We'll find out how effective it is when someone here tests it and not before.

The key thing to keep in mind is that aluminum is way, way cheaper, easier to work with, and the performance increase going from a hybrid design (Al fins w/ copper where it really counts like the base) to pure copper really doesn't give that much of a difference.

[Pyroe_Inc]

At any fan speed, copper is a better material for heat transfer vs aluminum. I have done term papers on this, it's thermodynamic fact. My Zalman did come with a low speed fan(1500rpm is in no way at all super-quiet, you don't see that until you go below 1000rpm), and it worked fine. Unless you can show us some testing results proving your assertion, it's just wrong to make these kind of claims about copper v. aluminum. The heat transfer from the material to the air is a function of the air and temperature delta, not a function of the material.

I think you misunderstood him. Cause you're both saying the same thing.
Copper is better. You just have to have more airflow, to be able to notice the difference...

[Calmatory]

An aluminum heatsink doesn't conduct as much, so its fans can remove the heat from the case without becoming overburdened. So this gradual temperature increase would take a lot longer. On a copper heatsink like the TRUE, which is designed extremely well, this gradual increase in temperature would take a lot less time, and while for the first hour or so, it would cool rather well, the ambient temp would start to "choke", and things would go down hill from there.

You CANNOT expect a copper heatsink to cool well if you aren't removing that excess heat from the case. That's all I'm saying.

And for ^^^ to happen, you need better cooling. If you already have good cooling, this is obviously not an issue. Just don't waste money on a $100 heatsink only to slap on some weak ass 800rpm "silent" fans on it.

You sir, should go back to school.

You also say that when you use better GPU cooler(neither blowing heat out), your CPU temperature lowers as the card doesn't put so much hot air in the case because the GPU temperature is lower?

Edit: Some of the reasons why copper is better:
The bottleneck might lie in heat transferring between fins and heatpipes. Using copper will help this a little.
The another bottleneck might lie in the fact that alu fins are too thin. The heat doesnt transfer to the center of the fins. The temperature in the center of the fin is lower than nearby the heatpipes. This means that heat doesn't conduct to the air as well as what it conducts at the edges(near the heatpipes). Actually, if the delta between ambient and the spot temperature halves, the heat dissipation halves aswell.

I am not sure how thin the fins are(IIRC they are 0.4 mm, but I might be wrong, correct me if necessary), but if the fins were 0.53 mm, the heat should(in theory) transfer as well to the middle of the fins as with 0.4 mm copper fins. They could've used a lot thicker alu fins, but the costs would've gone up, with the weight and "FULL COPPER HEATSINKS OMG" sells better.

[tiro_uspsss]

Remember, since copper's thermal conductivity is much MUCH higher than aluminum's, you need really good fans + air flow in your case to cool this baby down and get rid of all the heat it stores.

epic fail... seriously...

Buddy, copper has the 3rd highest thermal conductivity on Earth, behind diamond and silver. That means that whatever heat was transferred to the aluminum was dependent on the aluminum's ability to conduct heat energy. Now, since copper's conductivity is HIGHER, much MUCH higher (401 vs 237 W/(m·K)). That means that at any given time, it will be transferring and thus storing more heat energy than the aluminum version. Soooo that means that in order for the heatsink to not become overpowered by its own thermal conductivity, it needs to GET RID of the heat it conducts at a faster pace as well. Hence, the reason for more powerful fans.

whats it with the word 'store' - theres thermal conductance & thermal resistance

u make it sound as if a Alu HS doesnt need as powerful fans

That is purely theoretical.

what a crock of poo - I guess its only known as the Laws of Physics in a lab too then?

You forget that the heat transfer that occurs between the CPU and the copper heatsink is greater than that of the heatsink and the air. Although copper's heat capacity is a lot bigger than aluminum's, eventually, if the fans aren't getting rid of the heat at a greater rate than the heatsink is absorbing it, then the copper will start getting hotter and hotter and become useless.

lol. so do tell what would happen to the Alu HS?

That's why just looking at thermal conductivity doesn't tell the whole story. In a lab, yeah it does, but in real life it does not.

I sense... fail

An aluminum heatsink doesn't conduct as much, so its fans can remove the heat from the case without becoming overburdened.

repeat that ^ to urself a few times, till u realise what u have said....

You CANNOT expect a heatsink to cool well if you aren't removing that excess heat from the case. That's all I'm saying.

I fixed that sentence for u

First off, yeah a copper heatsink will be removing more heat but at the cost of ambient temperature rising IF YOU DON'T HAVE GOOD AIR FLOW.

u say that like its a bad thing... we want/need the air surrounding/passing the HS to rise in temp - it lets us know we are being successful in transferring heat from HS to air

don't have close to the perfect air flow you seem to think exists. Again, consumer PC's are not a lab. We don't live in a vacuum, figuratively speaking. I think you're applying absolute scientific laws in a chaotic environment without thinking outside the box and realizing that there are a few important factors that kill this naive thinking.

pfft. let me repeat it for u: Laws of Physics (in this case, thermal dynamics)
I'm afraid they apply all the time, everywhere, everyday
they are not askew just cause they have been proven in a lab.. air flow is air flow, 'perfect' or not - it will have the same affect, relative to its amount, so the Laws still apply, the formulas are still true, fair'n'square - the only thing that has changed are the numbers that are plugged in to their corresponding symbols, thus changing the answer, thats all..

...it's traumatizing.

the only thing traumatizing is the lack of knowledge displayed by a few pplz, esp. RE: Cu vs Al & thermal properties etc..



*unbelievable*

[ryboto]

I think you misunderstood him. Cause you're both saying the same thing.
Copper is better. You just have to have more airflow, to be able to notice the difference...

No, you really don't. Copper will conduct faster, at the same air flow rates. NotFred made a very good point here. The copper version will transfer the energy at a faster rate than Al, so it might increase the bulk/ambient air temperature, so to combat that, you raise fan speeds, but in reality, the same amount of energy is released using an Al heatsink, so at steady state your energy balance is the same regardless of heatsink. Either you have a warmer CPU, or you release the energy to the air at a higher rate, and increase your air temperature. You've reduced the resistance to heat transfer from the heat source, so you're cooling it more effectively.

[ryboto]

*unbelievable*

I think his lack of response to my posts suggest he might have seen the light, I just wish this was common knowledge among the community.

[Bo_Fox]

At any fan speed, copper is a better material for heat transfer vs aluminum. I have done term papers on this, it's thermodynamic fact. My Zalman did come with a low speed fan(1500rpm is in no way at all super-quiet, you don't see that until you go below 1000rpm), and it worked fine. Unless you can show us some testing results proving your assertion, it's just wrong to make these kind of claims about copper v. aluminum. The heat transfer from the material to the air is a function of the air and temperature delta, not a function of the material.

Wrong, it is also a function of the material. The air/material temperature delta also holds true, as you claim.

Sorry, I should have said 1000rpm instead of 1500rpm-- I was just making an example by saying "a super quiet fan (1500rpm MAX, which is far quieter than the 2800rpm fan that it comes with).. and I said that I was not sure exactly what the fan threshold would be where you would start *noticing* a difference between aluminum and copper. For really noticeable results, it would have to be in the generic 2000+rpm ballpark. It's like having 0.5 degree difference, which would be within the margin of error (of course, your term papers would not include the margin of error that comes with real-life testing that I have done for many years). If the difference is so slight at low fan rpm speeds, aluminum is the obvious choice since it's far more cost-efficient and much lighter. That's why aluminum is a god-send for fan-less heatsinks.

I think you misunderstood him. Cause you're both saying the same thing.
Copper is better. You just have to have more airflow, to be able to notice the difference...

Thanks, Pyroe.. you said it all.

[Baron_Davis]

Lol sorry if I haven't seen YOUR light. Copper does STORE more heat at any point in time. Just because because the electrons move from one orbit to another doesn't mean they aren't IN ONE PLACE AT ONE TIME DURING THIS TRANSFER OF ENERGY. The one guy's long ass post is pretty crap. Only insecure people need to break down a post sentence by sentence to make themselves look special. You just look retarded imo anyway.

The point I have been making since the start is that THE COPPER TRANSFERS MORE HEAT FROM THE CPU. YES, IT'S OBVIOUS TO A CHILD THAT THE HEAT PRODUCED BY THE PROCESSOR IS THE SAME REGARDLESS OF HEATSINK, BUT THAT EXCESS HEAT THAT ISN'T TRANSFERRED BY LESS CONDUCTIVE MATERIALS SUCH AS ALUMINUM IS DISPERSED IN A CHAOTIC AND UNPREDICTABLE MANNER, TO LOCATIONS UNKNOWN TO USE SINCE NOBODY HERE HAS DONE TESTS TO SEE WHERE THE HEAT IS GOING. THE SAME HEAT BEING TRANSFERRED BY THE COPPER HEATSINK IS GOING IN THE CASE, RESULTING IN A POTENTIALLY HIGHER AMBIENT TEMPERATURE IF MORE POWERFUL FANS AREN'T PUSHING THE HEAT OUTSIDE THE CASE. THAT IS ALL I'M SAYING FFS.

[tiro_uspsss]

Lol sorry if I haven't seen YOUR light. Copper does STORE more heat at any point in time. Just because because the electrons move from one orbit to another doesn't mean they aren't IN ONE PLACE AT ONE TIME DURING THIS TRANSFER OF ENERGY. The one guy's long ass post is pretty crap. Only insecure people need to break down a post sentence by sentence to make themselves look special. You just look retarded imo anyway.

The point I have been making since the start is that THE COPPER TRANSFERS MORE HEAT FROM THE CPU. YES, IT'S OBVIOUS TO A CHILD THAT THE HEAT PRODUCED BY THE PROCESSOR IS THE SAME REGARDLESS OF HEATSINK, BUT THAT EXCESS HEAT THAT ISN'T TRANSFERRED BY LESS CONDUCTIVE MATERIALS SUCH AS ALUMINUM IS DISPERSED IN A CHAOTIC AND UNPREDICTABLE MANNER, TO LOCATIONS UNKNOWN TO USE SINCE NOBODY HERE HAS DONE TESTS TO SEE WHERE THE HEAT IS GOING. THE SAME HEAT BEING TRANSFERRED BY THE COPPER HEATSINK IS GOING IN THE CASE, RESULTING IN A POTENTIALLY HIGHER AMBIENT TEMPERATURE IF MORE POWERFUL FANS AREN'T PUSHING THE HEAT OUTSIDE THE CASE. THAT IS ALL I'M SAYING FFS.

oh, is that all ur trying to say? wow... & to think u had to SHOUT to get that across... u wouldnt think it would be so difficult in the host of sentences i picked out of ur posts that seemed to portray u more as a misplaced fountain/water feature @ a sewer plant (spouting bs as such)... & to think u were the one telling others to construct proper sentences:

[ryboto]

Wrong, it is also a function of the material. The air/material temperature delta also holds true, as you claim.

Sorry, I should have said 1000rpm instead of 1500rpm-- I was just making an example by saying "a super quiet fan (1500rpm MAX, which is far quieter than the 2800rpm fan that it comes with).. and I said that I was not sure exactly what the fan threshold would be where you would start *noticing* a difference between aluminum and copper. For really noticeable results, it would have to be in the generic 2000+rpm ballpark. It's like having 0.5 degree difference, which would be within the margin of error (of course, your term papers would not include the margin of error that comes with real-life testing that I have done for many years). If the difference is so slight at low fan rpm speeds, aluminum is the obvious choice since it's far more cost-efficient and much lighter. That's why aluminum is a god-send for fan-less heatsinks.

I didn't say anything about the accuracy or error margins, whether or not copper outperforms Al outside a margin of error. I'm just saying based on Heat transfer, and the governing energy balance equations, heat transfer from a material to the air or fluid is not a direct function of the material, but a function of the properties of the fluid, and the driving force for heat transfer, temperature difference. If anything, this alone would make copper a better choice for passive heatsinks, or fanned heatsinks. The copper will be warmer because it has a higher thermal conductivity, the greater temperature difference will increase the rate of heat transfer to the air. I posted the governing equations earlier.

Considering the heatpipes are already copper, and they transfer heat incredibly fast, having thin copper fins vs thin aluminum fins for this specific heatsink might show hardly any difference. If you were comparing a finned block of cu vs al, the differences would probably be more noticeable.

[kiikkuja]

IT'S OBVIOUS TO A CHILD THAT THE HEAT PRODUCED BY THE PROCESSOR IS THE SAME REGARDLESS OF HEATSINK, BUT THAT EXCESS HEAT THAT ISN'T TRANSFERRED BY LESS CONDUCTIVE MATERIALS SUCH AS ALUMINUM IS DISPERSED IN A CHAOTIC AND UNPREDICTABLE MANNER, TO LOCATIONS UNKNOWN TO USE SINCE NOBODY HERE HAS DONE TESTS TO SEE WHERE THE HEAT IS GOING. THE SAME HEAT BEING TRANSFERRED BY THE COPPER HEATSINK IS GOING IN THE CASE, RESULTING IN A POTENTIALLY HIGHER AMBIENT TEMPERATURE IF MORE POWERFUL FANS AREN'T PUSHING THE HEAT OUTSIDE THE CASE. THAT IS ALL I'M SAYING FFS.

How can the copper heatsink disperse the heat to the case and alu cannot? The alu
disperses the heat to locations "unknown". Wtf, case maybe?

[Calmatory]

You need to cut your hair and learn to construct proper sentences that make sense.

Anyway, I don't think you understand what I was saying (or anyone else for that matter, seeing as how your grasp on the English language is total ), so it's not worth responding to you.

So that is your counter argument? At least I am willing to discuss this.

You are really saying that Alu works better than Cu? Why don't they use brass or cast iron instead? They must work SO well.

I wonder why Thermalright doesn't employ you, since you are so much ahead of their engineers...

[Tonucci]

How can the copper heatsink disperse the heat to the case and alu cannot? The alu
disperses the heat to locations "unknown". Wtf, case maybe?

Indeed...the "unknown" mysterious location might be inside the case....since the CPU is placed inside the case

LOL

Ill just say that cooper cools better, in any aspect/condition. Unfortunately, the misconception is not dead yet...

[Baron_Davis]

There are a variety of materials in a case, and heat can be trapped which is why there is such a thing as hot spots. To think that because copper is a better thermal conductor automatically makes better cooling is foolish. It isn't that simple...

[cegras]

How can the copper heatsink disperse the heat to the case and alu cannot? The alu
disperses the heat to locations "unknown". Wtf, case maybe?

Indeed...the "unknown" mysterious location might be inside the case....since the CPU is placed inside the case

LOL

Ill just say that cooper cools better, in any aspect/condition. Unfortunately, the misconception is not dead yet...

Probably through the PCB, surrounded materials the chip is in contact with, etc, etc, etc.

If the Al won't wick away the heat fast enough from the CPU, it'll disperse with whatever else it is in contact with.

That makes total sense. Baron's point does make sense, though it's a bit .. confusing in presentation.

[ryboto]

There are a variety of materials in a case, and heat can be trapped which is why there is such a thing as hot spots. To think that because copper is a better thermal conductor automatically makes better cooling is foolish. It isn't that simple...

it is that simple. Copper is better at cooling a surface than Aluminum. That is what you were arguing against. Now you're modifying your argument to say that because copper allows for lower thermal resistance of heat transfer from the CPU it's heating the ambient air faster(true), and causing hot spots and this makes copper not as acceptable. Well, it's cooling the CPU better, and I really don't think it's going to be of the magnitude that we'll see even a 2-3C increase in case temps, unless of course you're trying to use this in an extremely quiet system, which I'm assuming no one will do.

[[XC] Lead Head]

If your CPU puts out 50 watts of heat, and say with a copper cooler it runs at 35*C, and with an aluminum it runs at 45*C, and those are steady temperatures, they don't increase at all after that point. 50 watts is 50 watts, whether it is at 35*C or 45*C. You put the copper cooler on the CPU, it simple is able to take the heat away from the CPU faster, but the same 50 watts of heat is still being dumped into the case from the aluminum heatsink.

There is no such thing as a free lunch. If 50 watts is being dissipated by the alu sink, 50 watts is going to be dissipated by the copper sink. With the copper sink you will get more cooler air, while with the alu sink you get less hotter air. It all works out the same in the end.