Apogee GTZ

[Movieman]

These are tough economic times for all, especially most manufacturers.
The current fuel costs are killing companies and workers alike.
People's discretionary income, if they have any, is being eaten up by these costs. Add in that if you live in a cold climate as it is here in the winter your trying to plan ahead for $5.00/gallon heating oil.
Just my little 48x26' 2200 sq ft split takes 600 gallons of oil a year to heat.
Three years ago that was $1.00 a gallon, now it will be $5.00
That's $3000.00 for what was $600.00 in just 3 years my friends.
Add in that everything is WAY up because of transportaion costs and you come down to the fact that to ask the manufacturers to kick into a kitty is just piss poor timing.
To me the status quo is the smart way. All thats needed is that the people who do the reviews are people you trust to post the truth.
Same as benchmarks, you know whose are legit and whose are BS.

[IanY]

Would be happy to pay monthly membership fees.. delighted to just be here... but that will exclude a large segment of XS members from privileged info. Is that wise ?

[twwen2]

Would be happy to pay monthly membership fees.. delighted to just be here... but that will exclude a large segment of XS members from privileged info. Is that wise ?

There's a good point. How many clubs charge a membership fee? (rhetorical Q). XS is a kind of club. I don't see why certain parts of the site couldn
t be fee-based. I'm sure not everybody will agree tho!

[Movieman]

Thanks GABE for being a stand-up guy.

A blind fund makes sense. Manufacturers, IMO, need to quit passing everything on to the consumer. It's a sign of greed, when manufacturers continually refuse to cut a minute amount of profit, that they might better service the consumer.

The manufacturers that turn out consistently high performing/quality products, such as yourself, should welcome the opportunity afforded them.

Its easy to see, which manufacturers have given Martin pre-release/current production samples to test and which have not. NaeKuh has provided equipment to Martin, he personally purchased, that has helped manufacturers sell more product. Is this the way it's supposed to be?

Sorry, I felt compelled to express my views, especially since I understand both the side of the manufacturer and consumer.

edit: post was being typed when yours went up MovieMan, but these are my feelings that I feel need to be expressed.

Not a problem. We all have different viewpoints.
Yours is different from mine but just as valid.

Would be happy to pay monthly membership fees.. delighted to just be here... but that will exclude a large segment of XS members from privileged info. Is that wise ?

Good point. Like the rest of society XS is probably made up of 5% wealthy, 80% middle class and 15% that are fairly poor and I'm just speaking of the US members. I'm not knowledgeable enough to speak on the rest of the worlds economy.

[Kayin]

This is an incredibly interesting situation.

May I suggest another form of compensation? What about test materials? I don't mean CPUs and boards, I mean calibrated thermometers, die simulators, etc. These items, if provided by the manufacturers, and verified by an independent authority, would provide a solid baseline, as well as discourage cheating. The entusiasts are often the best qualified to test, but we've seen the makeshift (good and bad) test tools that many reviewers have. I've seen DIY die simulator threads, manometers, adjustable PSUs, everything-but with no standards in testing, is it ever apples to apples? I understand that some things are always constants, but if you had the instruments calibrated by an outside, neutral party, isn't that fixing most of the rest?

I dunno whether anyone will think I'm full of it or not, but I just wanted to throw that out there.

[SiGfever]

I have tried to look at it that the testing should be uncompensated but how long can that last?

My main concern is that people such as Martin, nik, and mcoffey will get tired of all the expense and long hours of tedious testing and will go by the wayside. These independent guys have a lot of burden to carry. The testing that they do makes manufacturers money by highlighting the best products. Independent testing labs survive all over the world by doing quality work at a fair price. They supply data that is not perceived as compromised because of being paid for their work. Why should watercooling products be any different. It is not a little known product anymore and is becoming more mainstream everyday.

Telling me that I should have to pay for testing to prove that someone's product does what they claim is absurd. Manufacturers should not only supply their test data but I would think they would love to have an independent validate their findings. If the testing shows flaws then it is up to honest merchants to fix the issues before going to market.

[nikhsub1]

The funny thing is, of all the manufacturers Swiftech needs what we are discussing the least. They have all the tools to do their own testing. That is not to say that it should not be validated, perhaps they do that as well IDK. I'm sorry that this thread degenerated into something totally unrelated to the GTZ...

[Movieman]

The funny thing is, of all the manufacturers Swiftech needs what we are discussing the least. They have all the tools to do their own testing. That is not to say that it should not be validated, perhaps they do that as well IDK. I'm sorry that this thread degenerated into something totally unrelated to the GTZ...

Nah, a good thread I think. Lot's of things discussed that should have been and having Gabe here with a manufacturer's viewpoint helped.
Besides, it buys his ass time to show that GTZ..

[twwen2]

As far as the workload on individuals goes, i'm sure there are more of us out there that would be more than willing (indeed, keen as mustard) to take some of the burden off the experts, if you could call it that .

The issue arises that small fries like myself don't have the experience, money or industry exposure to really get off the ground. The experts are experts for a reason...

[Martinm210]

FYI, The $40 a month I've averaged in donations has covered my webhosting which I appreciate very much But any future donations should go to XS, I don't even want to think about what sort of bandwidth we eat up BSing here.

BTW, I am finally getting ready to start in on my CPU block testing again, but I have no idea if I'll get one of these to try. I did manage to find an Apogee GT (traded a fellow member some testing gear for it), so I will at least include that one...

Back on topic to the GTZ...I'd really like to see some internals when that's ready for the public.

[Nickel020]

I'm really intrigued by the design of the EK Supreme. It's a shame more manufacturers don't expand upon it. They all seem stuck on impingement, low pressure loss designs. I personally don't ever plan on running other blocks with my CPU, so pressure loss doesn't concern me.

Sorry to ramble, but I guess I'm just a little tired of the continuous rehash of the impingement blocks. I am hoping for something revolutionary in the Apogee GTZ, we'll see.

Watercool has making blocks with that exact system for years. They're due to release the Heatkiller 3.0 sometime soon.
Looking at their GPU coolers they don't care much about flow but mostly about raw performance (and amazing looks ), so the 3.0 may be able to beat the Supreme.
But generally, most people don't have seperate CPU and GPU/motherboard loops, so it makes sense, that most coolers aren't near as restrictive as the Supreme.

[majestik]

Impingement is low restriction, since when?

[majestik]

The D-TEK FuZion is a low restriction design...

It's a low restriction design if you use giant-sized nozzles. If you use the 3.5mm nozzle, its hardly low restriction.

Besides - EK Supreme is an impingement block, since it has an accelerator plate. It's just shaped differently, but it's purpose is still to accelerate water, hence achieving impingement.

[majestik]

Still it seems the current FuZion and Apogee designs favor a dual core processer, not a quad core...

That is true.
Nehalem will also have 270mm² die, compared to 107mm² for Wolfdale. And that will be the performance benchmark in a few months time, so I would expect the Apogee GTZ to be designed with that in mind

[Kayin]

Am I the only one that's thinking (internal) pics or it's just vaporware?

[Jimmer411]

In some way or another, the manufacturers need to publish more/better baseline data for the consumer/enduser...

I am in the manufacturing business, our "in house lab", samples/tests our asphalt daily. This info is either confirmed/refuted by outside labs hired by the customer or the State. This allows us the opportunity to show "integrity". When the product is bad, we admit it and correct it. When it is good, we retest to verify the test results.

Why can't this apply to WC Mamufacturers??? I for one, don't enjoy buying products based upon marketing info alone. I second the motion to create a fee based area of the forum, I'll be the first member, but you would need at least (3) credible testers for checks and balances...

The manufacturers should pay into this fund and who they are and what they contributed should be kept from the testers. The products should also be provided to XS testers by the manufacturers. If the manufacturer believes in their product, then they shouldn't be afraid to let it be tested by Independents. Believe me, the wheat will be seperated from the chaff rather quickly...

RRR this isnt completely directed at you

On average whats the difference between waterblocks? Starting at the bottom and all the way to the top performer how much of a gap is there and does the ability to cool your processor adequately still exist?

Even the lowest performing waterblocks are within 5c of the top performers right? Even the Classic apogee was within 1-2c of the Storm, which is small enough to be considered the margin of error. All of which dont fail to cool your processor worse than air cooling. And when has 1c been the difference between stable and not stable on water? Dare I say never?



The testing of your concrete is a bit difference because the difference between your worst batch and your best is huge I would imagine. It would not perform...period correct? My company does the same thing internally with the parts we manufacture.

My point is testing of certain things is a requirement of the manufacturer. If Gabe was manufacturing safety harnesses, vehicle air bag devices or any number of other things that require structural or functional integrity to perform then it would be his job to pay to have an outside source test his goods. For example take a look at goods that are, and are not FDA approved.

But testing of mundane things like tubing, waterblocks or fans is something that only people like us care about. I challenge anyone to ask their parents if they even care about the temperature of their computer, let alone how much cooler their computer could run. Were a niche, its our job to test these things, not Gabes. Just like every other niche out there, it exists because of a few diehard people who like to flaunt their e-peen. Not like thats a bad thing tho

[IanY]

I'll go out on a limb and say that you'll need an EK Supreme re-design for the Nehalem.

Let's back up a moment. XS constitutes perhaps 10% of the weirdo super enthusiast market, which in turn constitutes 10% of the market for water blocks, and water cooling probably constitutes 1% of the entire computer market. A normal person with regular brain faculties wouldn't dream of bringing water anywhere close to a computer. Its still an insane concept.

What incentive does any manufacturer have to contribute to such an XS fund? XS is just one of many forums, and XS doesn't have a measurable impact on any particular manufacturer. Remember that there are many many forums overseas in every single geographic market.

Gabe's astute enough not to release pictures of his internals. I know I wouldn't if I were him. Why should XS be so GD special compared to other forums ?

[majestik]

Gabe's astute enough not to release pictures of his internals. I know I wouldn't if I were him. Why should XS be so GD special compared to other forums ?

Because he actually posts here, plus we already have a date. I think we can all wait 3 days.

[IanY]

I would place a bet that its not impingement, and I would bet further that the Nehalem won't work so well with impingement blocks, and that the high flow low restriction blocks will return to favor.

Besides that, I've never seen an impingement block where the inlet is not in the center, and that GTZ's inlet and outlets are at the corners.

[twwen2]

..I would bet further that the Nehalem won't work so well with impingement blocks, and that the high flow low restriction blocks will return to favor.

I'm intrigued, why would this be so? Is the Nehalem processor going to be that different from the current setup? I know the actual core itself is vastly different to the current generation (IMC, etc), but it'll still have one IC/core, soldered to the underside of an IHS no?

[majestik]

Just effin' huge die, methinks.

But yes, IanY, you're right. Most likely not impingement since the neither barb is centered.

[orclev]

RRR this isnt completely directed at you

On average whats the difference between waterblocks? Starting at the bottom and all the way to the top performer how much of a gap is there and does the ability to cool your processor adequately still exist?

Even the lowest performing waterblocks are within 5c of the top performers right? Even the Classic apogee was within 1-2c of the Storm, which is small enough to be considered the margin of error. All of which dont fail to cool your processor worse than air cooling. And when has 1c been the difference between stable and not stable on water? Dare I say never?



The testing of your concrete is a bit difference because the difference between your worst batch and your best is huge I would imagine. It would not perform...period correct? My company does the same thing internally with the parts we manufacture.

My point is testing of certain things is a requirement of the manufacturer. If Gabe was manufacturing safety harnesses, vehicle air bag devices or any number of other things that require structural or functional integrity to perform then it would be his job to pay to have an outside source test his goods. For example take a look at goods that are, and are not FDA approved.

But testing of mundane things like tubing, waterblocks or fans is something that only people like us care about. I challenge anyone to ask their parents if they even care about the temperature of their computer, let alone how much cooler their computer could run. Were a niche, its our job to test these things, not Gabes. Just like every other niche out there, it exists because of a few diehard people who like to flaunt their e-peen. Not like thats a bad thing tho

Manufacturers can't obviously have a standardized way of testing actual performance on most products because there are to many variables, but they can test some basic properties of their products in a standardized way and publish that data. Some of them already do this on some of their products, but it needs to become more widespread and needs to have some sort of standards body like UL or ISO backing it and specifying exactly what those standards are. There's no reason at all why fans for instance can not have performance charts tracking CFM, RPM and DB, that are accurate, verifiable, and certified. If the industry would just take this one minor step it would go a long way towards putting everyone on even ground and simplifying testing of their products by eliminating the need to verify every last detail about their products.

The FDA is a bad example in this case, because that's a government applied requirement. UL is a better example, as that's an industry applied requirement. Quite simply, when shopping for certain parts, most people will not by something that's not UL certified because without that certification the only way to know if the product meets its specification is to actually test it. Because most people will be hesitant to buy without the certification, manufacturers will go out of their way to meet the certification requirements. Further, claiming a product as certified if it isn't, or producing a product that has been certified, but which doesn't meet the performance requirements has major consequences (lawsuit in the former, and losing your UL certification in the later) which keeps the manufacturers honest (in combination with spot checking by engineers and UL).

[IanY]

I see that there's disagreement

[IanY]

I'm intrigued, why would this be so? Is the Nehalem processor going to be that different from the current setup? I know the actual core itself is vastly different to the current generation (IMC, etc), but it'll still have one IC/core, soldered to the underside of an IHS no?

We'll carry this on in private, dear sir, because I can already feel the intense heat of flames from the EK Supreme is Supreme crowd.

There are a lot of experts here in this forum. However, we all were born with the same pot to dump in. I'm no expert, but at least I recognize the pottie. Many of them don't. Yet there are even some who stare in the mirror and see bling.

[jonny_ftm]

Everythning on Nehalem is pure speculation. One thing is sure: all actual blocks will need new mounting plates. For all the rest, it's a hit and miss. If you're one of those crazy enough to take the wagon as soon as Nehalem is launched, than better wait before buying a new WB