Innovatek? the best? cool . . .

[aspire.comptech]

NaeKuh > Channels are criss-crossed.

I cannot for the life of me, figure out how that would lead to any kind of positive thermal performance...

[HotGore]

That block looks like . The guy has completely forgot about the principle of surface area, and that the pins on blocks are milled, not soldered. I guess when you have had your head up your ass for 4 years in Innovatek....

[IanY]

Wow.. strong words about XS and all of you n00bs

Sorry that you guys just don't understand the principals of low flow. He says that his precious expertise "has strayed into the hands of a bunch of idiots."

By stooping down to your level of knowledge, or purported lack thereof, you will just sink his intelligence!!

I just read through the posts in XS and I'm frankly amused. How on earth are those guys going to understand the subtilities of water-cooling and fine-touching without understanding the basics of heat transfer and thermodynamics? When they can't even understand that, how can they ever be deemed fit to judge what is best and what is not?

This has confirmed my suspicion that my posts intended for bringing an insight into the wonders of water-cooling for the members of the SLI zone Forums, has strayed into the hands of a bunch of idiots. However I don't want to waste any of my precious time in correcting all the wrong opinions and balderdash found in that forum because I have learnt from the signature of Jimscreechy that I should "Never argue with an idiot; they will bring you down to their level then beat you with experience."

[tiro_uspsss]

i beg & implore someone with the knowledge & words to sign-in over there & totally own him, pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease

pins are soldered to base??? seriously.. his stupidity hurts..

[IanY]

My pins appear to be superglued!

Wow.. EK, DD, D-Tek, Swiftech, XSPC... you guys are just a bunch of idiots!! Don't you understand the theory of thermal equilibrium? You n00b manufacturers have a lot to learn from Innovatek!

Innovatek water-blocks are designed to make water swirl inside the water-blocks for sometime before going out. So, water swirls over the base-plate and removes maximum heat. Note that Innovatek uses low-flow. So, water has time to attain thermal equilibrium with the hot component.

Suppose water is at 25 degrees celsius and CPU is at 65 degrees celsius. Suppose that only if water stays on the base-plate for 5 seconds, complete transfer of heat occurs. So Innovatek water-blocks use low-flow and let water stay inside for 5 seconds and allow it to attain thermal equilibrium and CPU comes down to 30 degrees celsius.

Actually, CPU will stay very close to 25 degrees becasue volume of water is very large when compared to the CPU. So change in temperature of water is very less and final water temperature is equal to CPU temperature. Because thermal equilibrium has been attained we use this formula to calculate final temperature of water (that is equal to final temperature of CPU):

Q (heat of CPU i.e., 136W) = m (mass of water ~1kg) X s (specific heat of water) X [T2 - T1] (T1 is 25 degrees celsius)

Note that this formula is not applied to other companies because they don't allow enough time to attain thermal equilibrium by using high-flow. Water will flow out of the water-block quickly and so it'll not have enough time to absorb enough heat. So heat builds up. Remember that rolling stones gather no moss; fast flowing water absorbs no heat.

What about other companies? They use high-flow and let water stay only for 2 sec and so water will be at 25 degrees and CPU will be at 55 degrees. For next cycle, CPU will be 75 degrees instead of 65 because there is arrears of 10 degrees with first cycle itself. So, tempertaure will increase to a particular limit before it become so high that only 2 seconds are enough to ensure that newly produced heat gets completely eliminated (cooling curve is "J" shaped and I'll detail that later if you don't know what I mean).

So at this point the CPU will be at 70 degrees or so before it stops becoming hotter. This will be the equilibrium temperature of the CPU. Note that Innovatek has lower equilibrium temperature because of complete heat dissipation without any arrears or building up of heat. That is why Innovatek blocks are superior.

[IanY]

Interesting observation.. copper is light and aluminum is heavy. Someone drop a ThermalRight cpu heatsink on his toes lol

One more thing; to reduce cost, copper blocks are made very thin and light. So even little corrosion renders it paper thin and you're more likely to get leaks with copper blocks. But Innovatek blocks are solid aluminum blocks and are quite heavy and you can even kick it around provided you don't damage the smoothness of the base-plate.

[Waterlogged]

My pins appear to be superglued!

At least your pins are touching, mine seem to be magically floating.

Interesting observation.. copper is light and aluminum is heavy. Someone drop a ThermalRight cpu heatsink on his toes lol

Better yet, I'll drop my G-Flow on his toes. It's the heaviest block I've ever had. Most blocks (if you threw them at someone) would hurt, but you'd be able to shake it off after a few mins, this block will take someone out. IIRC, the base alone is 5mm thick and the slots add another 3mm. Crappy machining too. Looks like they just gang milled it with slotting cutters at the wrong feed rate.

[SiGfever]

blah, give up DB.

Theres only so much you can do. I have a simular problem on this forum right now, and all i can do now is just ignore.

They will never change, and nothing will allow them to change. The only thing you can hope for is that they run into an accident where they will eventually say, "OMGWTFBBQ he was right."

Speaking of this, I miss your old avatar.

[iandh]

At least your pins are touching, mine seem to be magically floating.



Better yet, I'll drop my G-Flow on his toes. It's the heaviest block I've ever had. Most blocks (if you threw them at someone) would hurt, but you'd be able to shake it off after a few mins, this block will take someone out. IIRC, the base alone is 5mm thick and the slots add another 3mm. Crappy machining too. Looks like they just gang milled it with slotting cutters at the wrong feed rate.

That's what most pictures of them I've seen looked like as well.




It is so hard to just shrug it off sometimes when you encounter an individual like this. He has been shafted so hard, and so many times in so many different positions by the Innovatek marketing dept. that he has lost all coherency.

[twwen2]

+1 it's astonishing to observe his absolute conviction that he's right, and everyone else out there is wrong. Surely it can't be too hard to realise that if innovatek's ideas were that far superior, everone else would be following by now? (i know he talked about patents and the like, but cmon, really!).

I've spent the last 10min triying to find some info on fluid dynamics or heat transfer, but i'm not having much luck with wiki. What i need is a textbook, but i'm not in that area of study. We need a scientist in here to bust out some sweet formulas that say higher flow = more turbulence = lower temps or something like that!

What would possibly settle this argument (tho i doubt this guy will ever come around) is a real-world test. Someone get a G-Flow, a fusion (freer flowing), an EK Supreme (high restriction), and a couple of pumps (mabye a db-1, ddc3.2 etc). Test them at low, med and high flow on a nice toasty quadcore and let the numbers do the talking.

I do realise that he raises many other points (like quality of manufacture etc), but in the end shouldn't real-world results be the selling point?
And some ppl just continue to live in denial about corrosion, sure it's not as bad as some say it is, i've seen enough pics to know that it exits!

[Sparky]

That big long post of his is full of LOL.

Alu + copper won't corrode... lol. Comes up with some fancy equation then says that it can't apply for anything else than those blocks... lol. Low flow is better... lol then my 2GPM should be killing my temps right? Hmm my CPU is actually rather cold, what do you know!

I could continue to tear this guy apart even with my limited knowledge of this stuff. Plus he seems rather full of himself. Rather elitist. He says he's "glad to share his knowledge" but then calls us over here a bunch of idiots

I'll enjoy my 2GPM loop with zero chance of corrosion and CPU load temps in the 30's and my GPU not breaking 45 using my pathetic Dtek and Swiftech hardware

[tiro_uspsss]

+1 it's astonishing to observe his absolute conviction that he's right, and everyone else out there is wrong. Surely it can't be too hard to realise that if innovatek's ideas were that far superior, everone else would be following by now? (i know he talked about patents and the like, but cmon, really!).

I've spent the last 10min triying to find some info on fluid dynamics or heat transfer, but i'm not having much luck with wiki. What i need is a textbook, but i'm not in that area of study. We need a scientist in here to bust out some sweet formulas that say higher flow = more turbulence = lower temps or something like that!

edit: i'm half tempted to register & take him out wanna join me?
I'm half tempted to register & take him on wanna join me?
What would possibly settle this argument (tho i doubt this guy will ever come around) is a real-world test. Someone get a G-Flow, a fusion (freer flowing), an EK Supreme (high restriction), and a couple of pumps (mabye a db-1, ddc3.2 etc). Test them at low, med and high flow on a nice toasty quadcore and let the numbers do the talking.

I do realise that he raises many other points (like quality of manufacture etc), but in the end shouldn't real-world results be the selling point?
And some ppl just continue to live in denial about corrosion, sure it's not as bad as some say it is, i've seen enough pics to know that it exits!

u could wiki/google 'thermal dynamics' i think.. as for being able to convince him.. ask him politely that, if u could prove him wrong, would he concede? if he says no, then he is clearly a troll @ which point u should point that out to eveyone in that thread

[Waterlogged]

+1 it's astonishing to observe his absolute conviction that he's right, and everyone else out there is wrong. Surely it can't be too hard to realise that if innovatek's ideas were that far superior, everone else would be following by now? (i know he talked about patents and the like, but cmon, really!).

I've spent the last 10min triying to find some info on fluid dynamics or heat transfer, but i'm not having much luck with wiki. What i need is a textbook, but i'm not in that area of study. We need a scientist in here to bust out some sweet formulas that say higher flow = more turbulence = lower temps or something like that!

What would possibly settle this argument (tho i doubt this guy will ever come around) is a real-world test. Someone get a G-Flow, a fusion (freer flowing), an EK Supreme (high restriction), and a couple of pumps (mabye a db-1, ddc3.2 etc). Test them at low, med and high flow on a nice toasty quadcore and let the numbers do the talking.

I do realise that he raises many other points (like quality of manufacture etc), but in the end shouldn't real-world results be the selling point?
And some ppl just continue to live in denial about corrosion, sure it's not as bad as some say it is, i've seen enough pics to know that it exits!

I think I can safely say the G-Flow is a loser. I can pretty confidently compare this rig to this rig. Idle temps alone, the G-flow loses. The G-flow is idling @ 43ºC and loads @ 61ºC (25ºC Amb) totally passive. With 3 Sunon 120x38 fans @ ~7v, 39ºC Idle-51ºC Load. These are both Preshott builds that are not OC'd at all, although I am thinking about trying the 524.

[Sparky]

waterlogged of course it doesn't perform well, you don't have a weak enough pump on it to make the water sit in the block for 5 minutes

[Waterlogged]

waterlogged of course it doesn't perform well, you don't have a weak enough pump on it to make the water sit in the block for 5 minutes

I thought my CSP-Mag was weak enough for XS standards?

[NaeKuh]

I thought my CSP-Mag was weak enough for XS standards?

uhhh... u need to bust out the gen.1 TT pumps for this yo!

[IanY]

I'm going to get a lawn spinkler system that turns on for a quick while and then shuts off for 5 minutes as the water circulates slowly to cool the block.

[Waterlogged]

uhhh... u need to bust out the gen.1 TT pumps for this yo!

How bout a Hydor L30 or L35?....I have those.

I'm going to get a lawn spinkler system that turns on for a quick while and then shuts off for 5 minutes as the water circulates slowly to cool the block.

[tiro_uspsss]

How bout a Hydor L30 or L35?....I have those.

easy tiger, those hi-flow pumps are evil... u need a L20 to get to 'thermal equilibrium'

[Waterlogged]

easy tiger, those hi-flow pumps are evil... u need a L20 to get to 'thermal equilibrium'

HEY! I know... I've got a couple of dead DDC 2's laying around I can put in serial, that might be low flow enough.

[cegras]

His math and reasoning is right, but what he does wrong is treat the water in the water block as an isolated system.

In fact, he should be treating the whole water loop as the 'water reservoir' that is undergoing total equilibrium with, say, the CPU block. And if flow is high and therefore you're getting more water through the rads per unit time, and therefore you're keep the whole water loop cool(er), then your delta of the block to the water will be smaller than if you allowed low flow and had all the water equilibrate to a higher temperature.

I believe that's the flaw in his reasoning.

[IanY]

Oh just use a little water gun. Its just enough water flow for the block. 10 minutes later, come bak empty out the block and start again. No need for a pump, or even a radiator. The water will swirl slowly and cool the cpu block real well.

[twwen2]

lol you guys are a cack

[NaeKuh]

His math and reasoning is right, but what he does wrong is treat the water in the water block as an isolated system.

In fact, he should be treating the whole water loop as the 'water reservoir' that is undergoing total equilibrium with, say, the CPU block. And if flow is high and therefore you're getting more water through the rads per unit time, and therefore you're keep the whole water loop cool(er), then your delta of the block to the water will be smaller than if you allowed low flow and had all the water equilibrate to a higher temperature.

I believe that's the flaw in his reasoning.

your reasoning is correct. Now tell DB how to explain it to him more simpliar then this, and you got a winner.

This is why were laughing and making fun. No matter how simple we make it, he doesnt get it.

Oh just use a little water gun. Its just enough water flow for the block. 10 minutes later, come bak empty out the block and start again. No need for a pump, or even a radiator. The water will swirl slowly and cool the cpu block real well.

Drinking coffee or beer, and then having to go every 15 min will pull the best temps. Might make your comp stink tho.

[IanY]

Drinking coffee or beer, and then having to go every 15 min will pull the best temps. Might make your comp stink tho.

That'swhy I'll have a funnel hooked to pvc tube. Every 15 minutes, I get my dog to do it for me. Lots of water in the dog dish. Don't worry about the smell. I use Lysol as a fluid additive. Some Listerine may also be good biocide.