What do you mean with almost? And I even have running production harpertown boxes...Originally Posted by Jacky
http://configure.us.dell.com/dellsto...1672_MLK&s=biz
http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en...reg_R1002_USEN
Barcelona dont even look good against Clovers...
Crunching for Comrades and the Common good of the People.
They clarified it to their major business customers, my uncle is one so I'm aware as he told me around September 8th. I posted this back then in the Barcelona thread as well. They said the 40% refers to the same thing you are stating, and they even gave figures for the 2.6GHz version. That would mislead anyone who didn't understand what marketing is and that making such a statement was literally impossible for them over Clovertown and Harpertown, so there had to be a catch and small print involved as there is with anything nowadays. The "40%" value doesn't hold for most workloads in the server segment I've seen, although in comparison to Clovertown K10h is obviously much more on par then with the next gen 45nmm part.
Unfortunately, this is marketing, and marketing in the same methods occurs in everything including Intel. How much the end product delivers is what makes end users justify and forget about the initial marketing hypes and claims, and in this case Phenom didn't deliver, so now everything is going to turn into a severely dullish critique and outlook than would've been if the product was better than C2D/equal to Penryn. Like "simulated" reviews have shown, 2.6GHz K10 and 3.2GHz Penryn are power hogs compared to the next lower product. Also, on stock coolers, they are running very hot in stability tests, around 55-58C, which just confirms their TDPs and problems again. The main problem lies in the fact that while Intels upcoming products are ahead on clock-per-clock performance, they are also far ahead on overclock, overclocker favored benches, ~1GHz ahead on core frequencies at the same TDP. This is a major problem discussed during analyst critiques.
Barcelona might do well for 4P setups, but that's it.
"To exist in this vast universe for a speck of time is the great gift of life. Our tiny sliver of time is our gift of life. It is our only life. The universe will go on, indifferent to our brief existence, but while we are here we touch not just part of that vastness, but also the lives around us. Life is the gift each of us has been given. Each life is our own and no one else's. It is precious beyond all counting. It is the greatest value we have. Cherish it for what it truly is."
Sorry KTE but that is absolute horse$#it. AMD worded that the way they worded it, not mine or anyone else understanding or interpretation, they just flat out obfuscated=P They later toned it down to 20% and that's a lie as well. I could fill this thread with lies like;
http://insidehpc.com/2007/05/23/amd-...elona-results/
What in the heck does that mean? AMD's Fans blow harder LOL! Then every website on line from here, MaxPC, [H], ARS, TR, Anand, AMDZone and everyone else didn't understand AMD WOW. AMD said 40% faster in a wide verity of workloads and NOT just Spec LOL! I don't care why they lied, I just pointed out that they liedAMD did not test Barcelona’s performance against one of Intel’s quad-core Clovertown Xeon processors, but Allen said Barcelona “will be the highest-performing x86 chip out there. It will blow away Clovertown.”Then maybe, just maybe you and the other guy is smarter than everyone else on line who were briefed by AMD.
Last edited by Donnie27; 11-21-2007 at 02:28 PM.
Posted by duploxxx
I am sure JF is relaxed and smiling these days with there intended launch schedule. SNB Xeon servers on the other hand....
Posted by gallag
there yo go bringing intel into a amd thread again lol, if that was someone droping a dig at amd you would be crying like a girl.qft!
Yep. I said this since March when the PR work started in 6th gear. They know 65nm was working bad for them and wouldn't make it, and Intel and various processor engineers stated this quite clearly, repetitively at major conferences: we or anyone cannot get decent enough yields at 65nm with a native quad to give it a chance and make a profit, it is practically impossible, the costs are too high. So the 45nm was always in the works as the major release and 65nm was like 50% of the move forward from X2 core, implementing the first upgrade technologies and functioning as a barren trial and tester release. The Shanghai was always said to be the better and fully optimised. You can spot this trend from AMD roadmaps quite early how they are now set to have 45nm released before Nehalem, and it will definitely hit higher clocks than 65nm since that's the main reason for the move=> more IPC, lower TDP, lower power consumption, lower costs, higher yields, higher core and NB frequencies, higher inter-core bandwidth. How much higher depends on their core tweaking and process technology maturing by then, but 3GHz with 1.5V is reachable now and it should be at least 3.2GHz at 1.45V by then. They knew by July that 65nm has lost the battle and moved on to 45nm as soon as they could, meanwhile, the public was being "masqueraded" with overtime PR work to wade more time -> you can see this with: "3GHz Phenom September!" initially to "2.8GHz!" to "2.6GHz!" now to "2.4GHz FX!" and then to "2.2GHz!" with finally release at "2GHz!" LOL!That's how tech roadmaps work, you line up for your major releases. Bit by bit the ones set to release in September have been moved to right before the time of 45nm release. Because they have nothing else for release and are trying to limit their cost/loss by doing this and moving to 45nm ASAP. This is the wisest move AMD has made since their K8L rumors started and I hope they don't spoil it with the same sort of very early bust-your-nose PR hype.
6-8 months is not long in the tech world, watch how fast it flies, I remember C2Q and G80GTX release like 2 months ago.
Donnie27, I don't think you understood what you're replying to. I actually said the same thing you said in your reply to me, saying they deceived the masses on purpose but not many of their tier 1 business allies in the server market.
I mainly responded to this; "They clarified it to their major business customers, my uncle is one so I'm aware as he told me around September 8th. I posted this back then in the Barcelona thread as well. They said the 40% refers to the same thing you are stating, and they even gave figures for the 2.6GHz version."
That's 2 quarters after BSing Stockholders, Customers and the Investment markets, you name it LOL!
Then you are the one with the misunderstanding here. I said AMD lied, I didn't say if they later clarified or not. They said, not anyone else said for them or misunderstood anything. There wasn't any careful wording or anything.
AMD said and DID what they wanted to, to delay prospective customers decisions on if they should buy current better performing Intel CPU's or wait and see just what AMD was Dancing in the Isles about=P So please, spare me? I don't care what AMD later said, that's the point you're clearly missing. I even said they later fudged. The 40%, 42%, 50% and etc.... was stated in Feb-07. I wasn't talking about what happened in or on Sept 8. You can be 100% correct on what was said then, get it? That changes NOTHING that happened in Jan & Feb-07. Same goes for AM2, $X$ erum 4X4 and etc.....
BTW, most folks thought Intel's Conroes claims were on the Conservative side.
Posted by duploxxx
I am sure JF is relaxed and smiling these days with there intended launch schedule. SNB Xeon servers on the other hand....
Posted by gallag
there yo go bringing intel into a amd thread again lol, if that was someone droping a dig at amd you would be crying like a girl.
AMD stock = FAIL
It's dropped 4% EVERY DAY since Monday.
"To exist in this vast universe for a speck of time is the great gift of life. Our tiny sliver of time is our gift of life. It is our only life. The universe will go on, indifferent to our brief existence, but while we are here we touch not just part of that vastness, but also the lives around us. Life is the gift each of us has been given. Each life is our own and no one else's. It is precious beyond all counting. It is the greatest value we have. Cherish it for what it truly is."
Sad isn't it?
Last edited by Donnie27; 11-21-2007 at 02:28 PM.
Posted by duploxxx
I am sure JF is relaxed and smiling these days with there intended launch schedule. SNB Xeon servers on the other hand....
Posted by gallag
there yo go bringing intel into a amd thread again lol, if that was someone droping a dig at amd you would be crying like a girl.
running in you're dreams ??????
nice links btw, new cpu on old platform, so just added value of cache and power consumption. So this helps 0% on the current FSB bottle like jacky's statement.
Yes these intel Xeons finally deserve a place in the server chassis after X years of Netburst crap! Are they better than K10, on a 1S yes, on a 2s-4s-xs no way, it is just depending on type of applications, but Intel does have the speed advantage at the moment.
They certainly are at 2s-4s-xs. Barcelona (if it was even available) is simply not strong enough to match up with the Core based Xeons, which is why AMD hasn't even had the confidence to release any meaningful benchmarks.
If AMD is going to be bought up, it's going to happen soon...Sad isn't it?
"To exist in this vast universe for a speck of time is the great gift of life. Our tiny sliver of time is our gift of life. It is our only life. The universe will go on, indifferent to our brief existence, but while we are here we touch not just part of that vastness, but also the lives around us. Life is the gift each of us has been given. Each life is our own and no one else's. It is precious beyond all counting. It is the greatest value we have. Cherish it for what it truly is."
No they run in our corporate production environment. And the dual FSB dont seem to be much of a bottleneck...
You sound desperate these days....
Crunching for Comrades and the Common good of the People.
I'll give you K10 blows away Harpertowns 10x.
The thing is... when someone buys a system, he/she buys one of the AVAILABLE FOR PURCHASE ones. At this time, that still excludes K10. Tough luck - let me know when vaporware purchase is possible and viable.
P5E64_Evo/QX9650, 4x X25-E SSD - gimme speed..
E6600 @ 3.69GHz / ASUS P5W-DH Deluxe / 2 X 512MB Corsair XMS2 DDR2 @ 821MHz 5-5-5-9 / Gigabyte 7950GX2 @ 625 / 1600
2 X WD 250GB SATA II Drives in RAID0 / Dell 24" Widescreen @ 1920/1200
That link does not belong to Phenom Reviews thread.
P5E64_Evo/QX9650, 4x X25-E SSD - gimme speed..
Siemens, someone by proxy for IBM, hell, who knowsI said it once and I'll say it again, we need a healthy AMD, they need to get well and soon. We don't need Fake recoveries and false performance claims, hell, then AMD wouldn't improve anything. There already folks lined up to tell them Barkie and Phenom then saying they're more than good enough.
I know I said the whole Native thing was schlock! I asked the other guy if he meant FSBs? Dual Sc have two. Nec and IBM have always played with NUMA compat multiple north bridges as well
Posted by duploxxx
I am sure JF is relaxed and smiling these days with there intended launch schedule. SNB Xeon servers on the other hand....
Posted by gallag
there yo go bringing intel into a amd thread again lol, if that was someone droping a dig at amd you would be crying like a girl.
Never thought of Siemens...but they could put AMD in the right direction...not sure if the US gov't would be too happy about non US ownership though...Siemens, someone by proxy for IBM, hell, who knows
I know I said the whole Native thing was schlock! I asked the other guy if he meant FSBs? Dual Sc have two. Nec and IBM have always played with NUMA compat multiple north bridges as well
"To exist in this vast universe for a speck of time is the great gift of life. Our tiny sliver of time is our gift of life. It is our only life. The universe will go on, indifferent to our brief existence, but while we are here we touch not just part of that vastness, but also the lives around us. Life is the gift each of us has been given. Each life is our own and no one else's. It is precious beyond all counting. It is the greatest value we have. Cherish it for what it truly is."
Has nothing to do with the US and more to do with AMD Saxonia GmbH. Some Germans I talked to called it "an American Style Porkbarrel Project".Funny how some conervative Americans complain about American ones while loving AMD's own version of Hightech Welfare LOL! Lately they've been digging a deeper and deeper hole. No sale will be approved unless the Germans approve it=P Siemens right there with AMD in Saxony.
Posted by duploxxx
I am sure JF is relaxed and smiling these days with there intended launch schedule. SNB Xeon servers on the other hand....
Posted by gallag
there yo go bringing intel into a amd thread again lol, if that was someone droping a dig at amd you would be crying like a girl.
Siemens definitely has the $ and man power necessary to put AMD back where they belong...Has nothing to do with the US and more to do with AMD Saxonia GmbH. Some Germans I talked to called it "an American Style Porkbarrel Project".
"To exist in this vast universe for a speck of time is the great gift of life. Our tiny sliver of time is our gift of life. It is our only life. The universe will go on, indifferent to our brief existence, but while we are here we touch not just part of that vastness, but also the lives around us. Life is the gift each of us has been given. Each life is our own and no one else's. It is precious beyond all counting. It is the greatest value we have. Cherish it for what it truly is."
First, Netburst didn't put Intel in the red.
Netburst sales broke Records for sales.
Was a success until Prescott launched, are you forgetting Northwood was Netburst too?
AMD is not Faster in any Server Market with 2 Sockets=P
Core QC is NOT FSB limited at all vs. Phenom.
In Fact, has an advantage since it doesn't have latency causing L3.
In Fact until AMD fixes it, is faster, Cooler, puts off less and etc...
$259 for Phenom 2.2GHz and $279 Core2 Quad 2.4GHz ain't fair. Maybe Phenom should be sold according to performance like X2 was, then it'd cost what, $169?
Posted by duploxxx
I am sure JF is relaxed and smiling these days with there intended launch schedule. SNB Xeon servers on the other hand....
Posted by gallag
there yo go bringing intel into a amd thread again lol, if that was someone droping a dig at amd you would be crying like a girl.
American banks wouldn't care, they just want their loans paid back. Especially that last big one. The Germans have wayyyyyyy too much invested to walk away now.
Posted by duploxxx
I am sure JF is relaxed and smiling these days with there intended launch schedule. SNB Xeon servers on the other hand....
Posted by gallag
there yo go bringing intel into a amd thread again lol, if that was someone droping a dig at amd you would be crying like a girl.
Well, I did not mean to imply it wasn't misleading... however, I would stop short of calling them 'liars'. Every company takes liberties in ways they describe their product, especially in market so hotly contested as this market.
Personally, yeah I think it was a bit misleading, but shortly after (I assume once they had real data), they backed off of that position. Technically, they were not 'lying', however as a consumer I am a bit disappointed because it does appear to have been artificially inflated.
Of course the link doesn't belong to this thread, it belongs in this thread.
Their has been discussion regarding Phenom's availability and pricing, so information regarding where to buy it and real world pricing is relevant.
On a side note, the price has gone down $30 in a few hours already. If keeps doing down like AMD's stock maybe I'll... nevermind.
E6600 @ 3.69GHz / ASUS P5W-DH Deluxe / 2 X 512MB Corsair XMS2 DDR2 @ 821MHz 5-5-5-9 / Gigabyte 7950GX2 @ 625 / 1600
2 X WD 250GB SATA II Drives in RAID0 / Dell 24" Widescreen @ 1920/1200
That was a personal experience note I made that they clarified after, long before now. I was told on September 8th as I asked then, not that they were told on September 8th. To many others, yes AMD withheld all the facts of their product performance => the exaggerated word for that would be "deceived", but I've already said this more than once. They didn't lie to the person I talked to at that government corp, they had already shown them the system up and running since July for demo's with its expected performance and clarified very clearly the "yet to be approved" ballpark figures for a 2.0GHz Barcelona and a 2.6GHz Barcelona in SPECfp_rate and SPECint_rate (2006). Those figures turned out to be fully true. They also said the major improvement was in SPECfp_rate 2006, so they weren't exactly lying to that corp. If they had, the corp wouldn't have looked back at them twice which includes government IT orders and that would've been a heavy loss for AMD.
Corporations don't rely on being spoon-fed their data like other customers, they make their analysis from what they are shown early on before release and leave it up to the seller to prove their product to them after that. If they can't, its their loss. They 'aint weak minded enough to fall for "40% improvement over Clovertown" from a well dressed PR woman until they see it and this goes for market analysts too. When the IT department of the hospital I work at asked AMD about what was the fastest Family K10h they can retail "optimistically" by mid-January in early September, they replied very clearly "2.6GHz B2 step is looking like the best possible around that time period". There's no lies in that either and yet all the reason to do so.
There's no misunderstanding, I said the same thing before your reply to me. I don't care what AMD or Intel did more than I do that a rat is dying right now DownTown 5th street alley way because screaming about it long after its happened doesn't do anything to curb it nor change it. Would've made a due difference back then though. We can all read what they claimed and what came to be of it. Was I deceived by the 40% marketing figures or what they applied to? No, neither were many others. Who was deceived? Anyone gullible or not understanding marketing rigmarole and computer architecture enough to fall for it. Marketing equals boast of your best facts and hiding of your worst facts, and we knew the SPECfp_rate is where AMD shines most and will boast most about at any given chance. I've already made it clear that it was physically impossible for them to validly claim and for someone educated in computing architecture to accept 40% improvement overall over Clovertown by their transistor technology. All it takes is for someone to understand microprocessors to be able to guess that at BEST K10h could've been a 10% improvement over Core 2, nothing more, which it wasn't. Were other people deceived? Yes. Do I care? No, but why should I? They should learn micrprocessors better before following some salesman's claims blindly, and that goes in anything. It wasn't me or any close one to me who made any loss, nor anyone relying on me.Then you are the one with the misunderstanding here. I said AMD lied, I didn't say if they later clarified or not. They said, not anyone else said for them or misunderstood anything. There wasn't any careful wording or anything.
AND FWIW, you will see a similar trend with the new architecture too. AMD with IBM are working on low-k dielectric. Low-k allows very good power savings, more than high-k but no where near as good clock frequencies as high-k dielectric like Intel chose. At higher clocks the gate leakage starts increasing rapidly. It's one of its major weaknesses.
It is disappointing that AMD has nothing to directly compete clock-for-clock with Penryn though, just like C2D vs X2 basically.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819103226
I will buy one when they hit ~220-230.
It's not the best CPU in the world, but I love it.
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