Mineral, Corrosion, and growing stuff maybe?

[ls206]

wow! that really is an "unnecessarily high-resolution version"!!
agrees, the top of "A_Noob"s block does resemble what Petra has posted

[Xilikon]

I would like to see Gabe answer this since he backed the "military spec plating" and the no-corrosion claim.

[disruptfam]

I would like to see Gabe answer this since he backed the "military spec plating" and the no-corrosion claim.

yes..........

[phelan1777]

I am another GTX owner what is waiting to hear more about this.

[Nate P.]

I would like to see Gabe answer this since he backed the "military spec plating" and the no-corrosion claim.

Same.

[IanY]

Wouldn't the corrosion be uniform across all owners ? I mean, there would be the makings of a class action.

Not doubting you, Alex/Petra, but a full caking of gunk just doesn't seem to support the corrosion observation. I have never seen rust cake up so quickly (GTX been around for less than a year) on any metal for any reason. I have seen cars submerged in salt water not cake up that badly with rust.

The outcomes have yet to be uniform. Let's not jump to any conclusions.

I mean. Its either corrosion or its not corrosion. If it is, then there would be a market revolt. I haven't found anyone yet who can provide a definitive expert opinion.

I'm e-mailing Gabe and asking him to respond.

[ElEctric_EyE]

The stuff in that photo looks the same as the stuff that I found in a customer's block a few weeks ago... except, his block was caked with it to the point of killing coolant flow and performance. Below is a quick photo of the inside of that GTX's aluminum top after a thorough cleaning. According to the customer, there was no other aluminum in the loop and he was running straight tap water (which wasn't the brightest idea, but is beside the point).



...and the unnecessarily high-resolution version

From a quick inspection, the deepest pits in the top are around 0.3mm...

Now, I'm not saying that everybody should panic or anything like that because, really, how many of us run straight tap water in our loops? My point is that these blocks can and do corrode, despite the elaborate plating. So, in the future, perhaps we shouldn't be so quick to write off people's claims of corrosion (assuming, of course, that they can provide decent photos).

My beef with your pics is what you have posted here is a Cu top, not Al. And so I have a beef with your explanation as well, cuz it doesn't jive. Here are some pics of an unused Al top from an Apogee GTX. I wasn't about to put it in my loop even though they are coated... Now if the top was Cu and you're saying Al "electromigrated" onto the Cu to make it look silverish, you're wrong. As far as I understand, under normal circumstances (translate not electroplating), ions will migrate to the strongest conductor. The pics you provided look like Al migration onto the Cu, or Calcium deposits from the hard water.
BTW I am not Gabe, but I would like to read his opinion.

[Waterlogged]

My beef with your pics is what you have posted here is a Cu top, not Al. And so I have a beef with your explanation as well, cuz it doesn't jive. Here are some pics of an unused Al top from an Apogee GTX. I wasn't about to put it in my loop even though they are coated... Now if the top was Cu and you're saying Al "electromigrated" onto the Cu to make it look silverish, you're wrong. As far as I understand, under normal circumstances (translate not electroplating), ions will migrate to the strongest conductor. The pics you provided look like Al migration onto the Cu, or Calcium deposits from the hard water.
BTW I am not Gabe, but I would like to read his opinion.

Sorry, but that is what the Al top looks like when the dye comes off. Cobalt is almost a bronze color and when mixed with zinc, it becomes a bit more grayish.

I'm still not sold that either of these are straight up corrosion. Petra admitted that the owner of that top was brain dead and added tap water. Tap water is different in every area, and who knows what sort of crap is floating in the water that that user used. Who knows what else they did to it that they don't want to admit to?

[ElEctric_EyE]

Just out of curiosity, that dye will come off even when it's not in contact with liquid (outside the o-ring)?

[ls206]

We need to wait for a high res picture from the OP...

[BenArcher]

Petra's pic looks worse that what galvanic corrosion should cause unless its given a fair bit of time. Although the issue with the coating is if it does scratch off then the scratched area will corrode very quickly (same amount of corrosion in smaller surface area = deep corrosion). Damage in that scale in a fairly short time period could indicate a kind of creavice corrosion. Say the loop is turned off teh water in the waterblock would be stagnent if corrosion is happening at all there will become a depletion of oxygen in the water in the block at which point more harmfull things start to react one of the worst is chlorine (very damaging & draws more chlorine to the corrosion area kinda like a vacuum) this is another reason we don't use tap water. Seeing as Petra's example was using tap water it could explain what happened.

Same thing could happen in other cases too. If your saying its picking things up from the radiator its still putting impurities in the water. Then all it takes is some metal shavings or something getting pushed though the block to scratch the coating and all of a sudden you get galvanic corrosion. Other impurities in the water such as salts give electrolytes which can start to corrode the plating on the block as well (the coating is still vunerable to corrosion it just won't galvanicly corrode with copper). Once that starts it will just get worse and worse.

[IanY]

So, the loop was switched for for a couple of days and the water remained stagnant in there, and that promoted the severity of the corrosion ?

[ElEctric_EyE]

My bad Petra & everyone, I was up late, it really looked like copper, but obviously I can see the pitting is in Aluminum. I honestly would not want to disrupt the sharing of information here. Thanks for the info!

[gabe]

Originally Posted by Petra
The stuff in that photo looks the same as the stuff that I found in a customer's block a few weeks ago... except, his block was caked with it to the point of killing coolant flow and performance. Below is a quick photo of the inside of that GTX's aluminum top after a thorough cleaning. According to the customer, there was no other aluminum in the loop and he was running straight tap water (which wasn't the brightest idea, but is beside the point).

Alex, after careful inspection by all 3 of us, Stephen, Eric and myself of the high res picture you posted, this really looks like calcium build-up to us rather than pitting.

The color is also typical of prolongued exposure to tap water calcium.

After close to a year of presence on the market, we are yet to see ONE case of true galvanic corrosion on GTX housings. Now I would like to clarify that we have hardly received any significant number of housings back. Neither of us can even recall any details, that's how far and between these things occur. Eric remembers 1, and I can't remember any, but I'm getting old, so it doesn't count

Do you still have that block, we'd like to inspect it. Could you please send it to us at your best convenience?

Thanks

[IanY]

Its good that Gabe responded. So anyone with a grievance, please air it.

[BenArcher]

So, the loop was switched for for a couple of days and the water remained stagnant in there, and that promoted the severity of the corrosion ?

It is a possibility. That kind of corrosion is most common in creavices where oxygen can't freely get to the corrosion site normally becasue there is no fluid flow in the area. It is the reason metal plates are not riveted together if they are to be used on boats or at sea they are welded instead. The case of a waterblock is slightly diffrent but when the loop is turned off it could simulate the same kind of conditions eg. low oxygen levels in the water + no water movement to bring more oxygen to the corrosion site (this wouldn't be a problem with distilled water as water wont react but with tap water the things in the water will start to react).

[Petra]

Alex, after careful inspection by all 3 of us, Stephen, Eric and myself of the high res picture you posted, this really looks like calcium build-up to us rather than pitting.

Gabe, you can clearly see the pitting in the high-resolution version (check the areas that are in focus) and I measured some of the pits at between 0.25mm and 0.3mm in depth. All I know about the block is that it was used with tap water and had become completely caked with a hard blue-white substance. The cleaning process that I had to use to remove the substance also stripped all of the dye from the aluminum top (hence the discoloration) but it did not change the condition of the top's internals (i.e. pitting was not caused or furthered by the process, the pitting existed prior to cleaning, and I used the same process on another non-compromised GTX top to verify).

That said, I'm merely pointing out that these tops can corrode and that the plating isn't infallible. Provided that proper care is taken, I don't really see this being an issue for the vast majority of Apogee GTX/Stealth users--as far as I'm concerned, this was just an isolated incident that isn't representative of GTXs, as a whole... but that doesn't mean that its occurrence shouldn't be known (which was my whole point from the outset--to inform, not to panic).

Now, I do still have the block in my possession (it's sitting on my desk) and I may be willing to send it in for you to look at, provided that it is returned to me in a timely manner.

Moving along, BenArcher may be on to something that warrants further investigation.

[gabe]

Gabe, you can clearly see the pitting in the high-resolution version (check the areas that are in focus) ..Now, I do still have the block in my possession (it's sitting on my desk) and I may be willing to send it in for you to look at, provided that it is returned to me in a timely manner.

Alex, we only looked at the Hi-res pics.. and only saw deposits. I even enlarged the pic in photoshop...I guess pics are deceiving then.

This being said, we do need to take a look at that block. How else can we ascertain the nature of the problem, and act upon it? This block is under warranty.

[phelan1777]

does the warranty have replacement with a copper piece if this does turn out to be a corrosion issue?

I am not asking to start anything, just that if there is a direct link, that to me would be one way to solve the issue or remedy it.

[A_Noob]

Yes! Thanks PETRA!, sorry for my crappy pictures, I have bad lighting here and there hasn't been a sunny day here so I can get good photos. That is EXACTLY what my corrosion looks like on my GTX. It has pittings and is starting to crack (I'm afraid it might crack into the O-Ring and start leaking). People keep telling it's not corrosion =(. But thanks, that is what is happening to my block. Is there anything I can do to prevent further corrosion? I finished disassembling my parts and flushed everything out with vinegar. Oh, and if people wanted to know, no I didn't use tap water, I used distilled water.

Update:
I found something cool: http://www.jab-tech.com/Apogee-GTX-C...g-pr-3891.html
maybe my corrosion is solved? =/ more money to spend, I was almost about to drop some dollars on D-Tek fusion, I have no doubt that my block will eventually crack, or better yet...crumble. First bad experience with Swiftech X_X

[Sparky]

Yes a copper top would remove any corrosion issues.