Koolance's Response to Hardware Labs "The Copper Radiator Myth"

[Chewbenator]

:P forgot to convert from cubic ... and some other stuff

[Cathar]

:P forgot to convert from cubic ... and some other stuff

'scool. I messed up too. If it weren't for you, I would never have realised that I had actually undercalculated the CFM's. All corrected now though.

[jtok202]

Completely, utterly, and totally irrelevant.



I took the time to calculate the actual air-flows:

PA120.2 => 324CFM
HWLabs GT240 => 318CFM
Koolance => 330CFM

So, these are all 2x120mm fan radiators. That means to achieve that sort of air-flow, we'd need to be pushing ~160CFM actual, through the radiator, with each fan.

What sort of fan could do that you ask? 160cfm @ ~110Pa (~0.45in H2O).

Found one!

The Delta TFB1212GHE. This lovely little number is a 220CFM fan, running at a delightfully pleasant 65.0dBA. I have one of these fans at home. They are freaking insanely loud.

Make absolutely no mistake. This is marketing/advertising crap at its total sleaziest worst.

It is of absolutely zero secret that the design for the PA120 series has its efficiency falling away rapidly with the use of fans of >100cfm rating. Above 130cfm fans the PA120 radiators really don't benefit from any extra airflow at all.

This is Koolance purposely choosing the "weak-points" in competing designs, and constructing an artificial test that obfuscates the full disclosure of the fan power and noise required to attain the air-flow levels demonstrated in their tests, and then has the audacity to claim technical superiority.

Once again we see sleazy marketing practices at their worst brought to play against competitors, and targetting the uninformed consumer who will blindly swallow complete tripe all because it "looks official".

It's nothing more than tarted up pig swill with a pretty ribbon on top.

Thank you for doing all the math minutes before I had finished it After reading both letters there is a couple of things that I would like to have explained, If the Ventilation Resistance (Pa) of the Koolance HTE-NX004P (100% Aluminum) is at a greater value than that of the ThermoChill PA120.2 (Brass/Copper) even thought it has a size of exactly 1,306,620 mm^3 / 586,560 mm^3 or 2.27 times greater isn't the Koolance unit more restrictive to air flow. At a rating of 115 kg/m*sec^2 it has a pressure drop of .016 psi.In passing through the radiator at worst that means that the pressure drop of the same amount of area of a ThermoChill is going to be approximately half of that.
f you do the math on the Airflow of the system.... MY math
(fyi kg/m*sec^2= PA = N/s^2)

A turbine like that puts out a "Air Velocity: 5.0 meters per second" which is equivalent to the velocity of the air times the diameter of the aperture to obtain a flow rate, In the case of the Thermochill it would be 5.0meters per a second X .132 X .255 x2119 of air. (converted mm to meters to preserve units.) yielding
5.0 m/s x .132 m x .255 m = .1683 M^3/S
Convert to CFM, because thats what our fans are rated at.
.1683x2119=357CFM

Now for the equivalent koolance unit.
5.0 m/s x .130 x .240 = .156 M^3/S
.156x2119=331 cfm


If none of my math is greviously wrong then this would show a koolance radiator is not going to be significantly more restrictive than a Thermochill.
at 300+CFM OF AIR. which is a ludicrous amount of air. Now for the fun part how many pounds of pressure a 300+cfm fan puts out, to the interwebs.

Gathered from a hovercraft site.
DYNAMICS
Gross hull weight 2,727 Lbs
Engine Frames & Props 1,600
24 People @ 190 ea. 4,560
100 Gal Fuel @ 7 lbs/gal 700
Gross Weight 9,587 Lbs

Static pressure (9,587/800)/5.2 = 2.3 inches W.G. SP

LIFT
120 ft. perimeter @ 10 cfs/ft = 600 cfm/ft = 58,200 cfm
One Fan - Joy Vane-axial.....45 inch diameter, 17 inch hub
@ 2000 RPM 64,000 cfm @ 4.5 inches WG
85 HP consumption

If i understand right for a weight of 9,587 lbs that takes up 120ft. they need 600 cfm of air per a foot so if we have a weight of 9,587 lbs/120 ft =79 lbs/ft we can say that under ideal circumstances a 300 cfm air fan would be able to hold half of that or a wopping 39.5 pounds of weight per a ft of area. Ya this test is realistic.
P.S. thanks for correcting me Cathar forgot for a while that this was a two fan setup as i was dealing with one turbine to calculate.

[1Day]

While I felt they made some good points with respect to the relationships between materials used and thermal efficiency of those materials, but the need to shovel sh1t negated what could have been an interesting response by them. Why do manufactures assume we are all idiots and mostly illiterate bumpkins. I am personally insulted by the BS.

[_G_]

Oh god. Here we go again. Top Nurse won't give up on [H] and now she's at it here with more BS. Give the agenda a rest. Koolance is a joke along with their use of aluminum and bogus testing techniques.

Goes to show how honorable and ethical a company is to provide and promote misinformation. It's amusing to see which Koolance lackeys are enamored with Koolance's response wishing it were true.

calm down dude, not one person in this thread has even remotely agreed with this test (even all our hard404um guest )
If you have anger management issues go here
http://www.onemorelevel.com/games.php?game=507

[ranker]

calm down dude, not one person in this thread has even remotely agreed with this test (even all our hard404um guest )
If you have anger management issues go here
http://www.onemorelevel.com/games.php?game=507

See first post...and this game is fun but a tad bit hard...


Back to the point, anyone know if HWLabs is planning a formal response?

I'd love to see Marci or Cathar releasing an official response as they decided to drag Thermochill into this "test".

[MaxxxRacer]

Another pathetic attempt by Koolance.

Marci, if you're reading this, is there any chance you can provide the thermal conductivity of the brass you guys use?

[Cathar]

While I felt they made some good points with respect to the relationships between materials used and thermal efficiency of those materials,

Actually, if you read carefully, even this is BS.

They started with a supposition, and then incorrectly tried to tie the results of a meaningless test back to the supposition.

Their claim was that an aluminium radiator was more efficient. That's just a claim. They established some thermal conductivity values for the worst elements in a copper radiator, conveniently ignored the rest of the conductivity elements that are superior, and then proceeded to overplay the impact of the worst portions. A copper radiator does not use brass fins. A copper radiator uses copper fins, and copper has an 80% greater thermal conductivity than aluminium. Does Koolance tell us this? No. They have actually lied to us through omission, by not informing about the thermal transfer aspects in a copper radiator that are in fact superior to an aluminium radiator. In fact, the vast majority of the heat flow that needs to move around travels along a superior copper path. There is a very short path where the heat has to pass through brass, and the impact of this short path is truly minor in comparison to the "long path" of the fins.

So Koolance, in their introduction, have tried to overplay this aspect.

When it comes to radiator design, it is possible to balance fin density, core thickness, tubing widths and so on, to move around the best efficiency points of a radiator for given fan powers. We can make a radiator completely suck for powerful fans, or we can make a radiator completely suck for weak fans. This is an extremely complex interrelated set of variables that need to be balanced. In short, we can optimise a radiator for whatever. Just tell us the fan power we need to optimise for.

Now the Thermochill PA series was deliberately optimised for <80CFM fans (per 120x120mm area), and that came at the expense of performance for >100CFM fans. This was done because it was realised that powerful fans were simply too noisy for people to tolerate.

The reason why the PA radiators stormed onto the market was because so many radiator manufacturers were still designing radiators using automobile manufacturer test utilities which optimise for fan powers that are completely unrealistic and irrelevant to the PC water-cooling scene.

It is the no wonder that a radiator that was designed for automobiles using automobile test utilities works so well on an automobile testbed. "No s**t Sherlock!". It is also of no surprise that a radiator that purposely went against those norms, and focused on the specific needs for PC watercoolers doesn't do well on an automotive testbed. Once again: "No s**t Sherlock!".

It is completely specious reasoning to then take the results of such a test and attempt to attribute technical superiority down to the aluminium construction. There are just WAY too many variables between the premise and the results to EVER draw that conclusion. It much like me living in America, pulling out my pet rock and saying that it keeps Kangaroos away, and claiming that it works because I can't see any kangaroos about. It's specious reasoning at its worst.

This is not a scientific test. This is pure and absolute marketing drivel that insults the intelligence of all consumers who are capable of understanding what is really being presented.

[Bbq]

I wonder what the results would have been if they used a thermochill HE instead of a PA..

[Cathar]

If none of my math is greviously wrong then this would show a koolance radiator is not going to be significantly mroe restrictive than a Thermochill.
at 300+CFM OF AIR. which is a ludicrous amount of air. Now for the fun part how many pounds of pressure a 300+cfm fan puts out, to the interwebs.

Your maths is right, but we don't need a single fan. These are all 2-fan radiators. So it's really 2 x 165CFM.

Also, we need to push 165CFM through the air-flow resistance of the radiator, which is ~110Pa.

The fan that I linked to, the TFB1212GHE is capable of doing that. It's a 220CFM fan, at 65dBA each. Use two of those fans on the radiators, and that's what we'd need to be equivalent to the conditions of the test.

That is, of course, if you don't go stone deaf after 15 minutes.

I have one of these exact fans. "Loud" just doesn't even begin to describe them.

[Top Nurse]

Dang, I was looking for a way to put some more aluminum in my loop.

However flawed their "testing" was I'm wondering how well or poorly their radiator design is over what is currently on the market. Is their radiator design more conducive to what they sell or can there be specific types of water cooling areas that would benefit from their design?

[jtok202]

Really high temperature water, in fact only a few degrees off the boiling point with high volumes of air seems to be their perfect place. If thats in my computer please shoot me, industry sure, cars sure, my computer ohh heck no.

[ranker]

Really high temperature water, in fact only a few degrees off the boiling point with high volumes of air seems to be their perfect place. If thats in my computer please shoot me, industry sure, cars sure, my computer ohh heck no.

It's nice to know their design is optimized for computers residing in open air in Death Valley, California during tornado season.

[jtok202]

Since I feel like stirring up trouble a email to koolance.

Would you please explain to me how using a 300+cfm fan is representative of the conditions that is present in a typical computer. The only fans i find that would be able to provide that level of air are the TFB1212GHE it is capable of doing that. It's a 220CFM fan, at 65dBA each. Use two of those fans on the radiators, and that's what you would need to be equivalent to the conditions of the test. 65 dba is pretty loud for me and cumulative I thought that sound nearly doubles in intensity. 84(± 1)°C is only 183.2 degrees if my computer was ever that hot it would melt. I thought that tygon tubing was only rated at 170 degrees. I had nearly 700 dollars of merchandise lined up to be bought but now seeing this review I can't make the purchase in good faith, I hope you can get back to me on this I would greatly appreciate it.

cathar hope you don't mind if i borrow your words a bit, and please keep in mind this is sent friday, errr saturday at 4:05 am and will not be seen by koolance until monday. Ohh ya the buying koolance stuff is ing bull.

[jimmyz]

it's all just marketing bs. everybody in this forum knows how to tell quality from the also- rans.if you want a nice ,reliable ,cool running system you buy quality parts.

[Cathar]

However flawed their "testing" was I'm wondering how well or poorly their radiator design is over what is currently on the market. Is their radiator design more conducive to what they sell or can there be specific types of water cooling areas that would benefit from their design?

Their radiator looks just fine to me. It's simply an aluminium version of most copper-louvre radiators on the market. The end-tanks are different, but that's of fairly minimal consequence.

I have no doubt that it's a decent radiator. How good is it for PC fan powers? I don't know, and their "test" provides no insight on that either.

It's just what Koolance have chosen to go with, and it's what they want to do. Both HWLabs and Koolance seem to have gotten themselves into a grubby little fight. It's just annoying that Koolance decided to drag other parties into their little s**t fight.

[Marci]

ThermoChill's Official Response...

We question the relevance of Koolance's published data and it's usefulness to the market at which our products (and theirs) are aimed and obviously question the suitability of the parameters & equipment used for their testing. We would like to formally suggest that Koolance provide a sample of their radiator featured in that test to be submitted to an independant tester so that it can be subjected to tests under parameters that are applicable to our scene, using only fans used within this market, and flowrates and pressures reproduceable by the pumps within this market. This testing should be done by an established independant neutral source using established testing methodology by an expert within this particular field.

Finally, we'd like to draw attention to the following...



(Edited due to lack of caffeine intake when this post was made, and the fact I hadn't put my goggles on yet... bit like today! I should be banned from posting on weekends - I always tend to make minimal sense...)

[elfy]

never mind

[septim]

lolz. gives me a laugh at having to use such high cfm fans besides the bed. am sure the missus and the baby would kill me for doing so...

[sladesurfer]

calm down dude, not one person in this thread has even remotely agreed with this test (even all our hard404um guest )
If you have anger management issues go here
http://www.onemorelevel.com/games.php?game=507

yup, no one is agreeing, just making sure people will back up their claim. not some lame comment (koolance suck!) with no proof.

[Halk]

I've just bought some new fans.

Picture of me with new fans.

Can anyone recommend a radiator that's appropriate?

[Hard H20]

BS marketing hype, same schit product. WTG Koolance! You still suck monkey nuts.

[septim]

not really needed sladesurfer, they've already provided plenty of ammunition for us... would you actually use that type of fan (large one in the pictures) besides your pc in your bedroom or living room?

maybe if it was in another warehouse a few blocks away...

[Jimmer411]

I would like to see koolance conform to the standard of sizes set by other rad companys. 120.X radiators.

What Im curious about, is that if/since Koolance outperforms the other radiators by so much how would that affect a typical pc.

For example. a Koolance rad, Fuzion/GTX on the cpu and EK/MCW60 on the GPU with a DDC pump. Coolant mixture would become a larger factor in this situation, since a 100&#37; distilled water setup would perform the best, it wouldnt last too long that way.

Would the need for increased amounts of antifreeze have enough of a negative effect on the temperatures?

Say a PA120.3 with same blocks and pump running 100% distilled water, and a equal size Koolance radiator with the same blocks and pump, but running a 80/20 mixture? (I doubt the normal 95/5 ratio would be enough to stop AL and CU from eating at each other).

[migueld]

Actually, if you read carefully, even this is BS.

They started with a supposition, and then incorrectly tried to tie the results of a meaningless test back to the supposition.

Their claim was that an aluminium radiator was more efficient. That's just a claim. They established some thermal conductivity values for the worst elements in a copper radiator, conveniently ignored the rest of the conductivity elements that are superior, and then proceeded to overplay the impact of the worst portions. A copper radiator does not use brass fins. A copper radiator uses copper fins, and copper has an 80% greater thermal conductivity than aluminium. Does Koolance tell us this? No. They have actually lied to us through omission, by not informing about the thermal transfer aspects in a copper radiator that are in fact superior to an aluminium radiator. In fact, the vast majority of the heat flow that needs to move around travels along a superior copper path. There is a very short path where the heat has to pass through brass, and the impact of this short path is truly minor in comparison to the "long path" of the fins.

So Koolance, in their introduction, have tried to overplay this aspect.

That's not true. Koolance explicitly mentions all three components of a brass radiator: brass tube, bond and copper fins, AND mentions copper's properties: "Since copper has a thermal conductivity 1.8 times greater than aluminum..." However they clearly state that water does not come into contact with copper, it passes through brass. And they state that the copper fins are soldered to brass, this means that we must consider the solder's heat transfer properties. So Koolance does not omit any information. In fact if it weren't for them, a lot of people would still believe their radiators were all copper.

Ironically, HWlabs is the one conveniently omitting information in their analysis, like I mentioned some time ago: they don't specify the brass heat transfer properties nor they specify the solder's properties. That is a big omission.

Koolance mentions that design plays an equally important role in radiator performance. I'm in complete agreement. I think the PA was successful because of the design rather than the elements. So, far from being an alu vs brass argument, I consider this being an informative debate. Sure there is hype and marketing, Koolance is guilty of that, and HWLabs is guilty as well. But both have worthwhile data, and I think Koolance has partially redeemed itself with this analysis. I just hope they don’t turn into arrogant pigs