NAME ONE corporation that lasted more than two years that didn't make more money then they were spending? Either by direct profit from sales or from subsequent profit collection. For example Mozilla gives away a free Web Browser called Firefox, but They collected over 53 Million dollars (in 2005 alone) because they included a search engine feature (that I personally love using)Originally Posted by Soulburner
Fast computers breed slow, lazy programmers
The price of reliability is the pursuit of the utmost simplicity. It is a price which the very rich find most hard to pay.
http://www.lighterra.com/papers/modernmicroprocessors/
Modern Ram, makes an old overclocker miss BH-5 and the fun it was
No, no, you have it all wrong. First:
Warning: Conspiracy
You see, the reason everything is so expensive is because the government wants to outsource everything to all other countries. Why would they do that? It's because there really only is one committee of elites that run the world (and also Mars). This group is called... umm... the... hmmm... Illuninati? Yeah that's it. And everyone knows that Bill Gate's real name is Bob Page, who is the head of the Illuminati. YES, MICROSOFT RUNS THE WORLD. It's all the same. There is no ATI or nVidia. It is all the same as Coke and Pepsi (which are the same too, since they're owned by Microsoft). Anyone who disagrees with me is an idiot. /ramble
I will now get off my soapbox, take off the sandwich board, take a shower and put my clothes back on.
For the serious stuff, I use games as my benchmark. If I can't play the latest good game, it's time to upgrade. So, say they make Doom 4 or something; if my PC can't even run it, I upgrade. I don't expect to upgrade until Vista has pretty much market saturation, games are vista only, and video cards are 3rd/4th generation.
I'm almost always available on Steam to chat. Same username.
The mainstream cards are not that far off from what they have been. You notice it more since there are no DX10 mainstream cards. At this point DX10 isn't even usable so its a non issue. Usually people that buy first release products pay more. AND get more bugs. Thats the cost of being first. Prices drop pretty quickly with electronics. I was reading on avsforum in the over $20,000 forum about people who spent $20,000+ just two years ago and can get better quality today off $4000-$5000. The truth is you can get a really decent kick ass card for under $300... nobody is forcing you to buy a $600 card and when DX10 becomes mainstream you will probably be able to get something under $150.
Last edited by ewitte; 01-05-2007 at 03:06 AM.
lol. I don't buy products when they first come out because they are so expensive. I don't want to be milked. If you choose not to be milked, then you won't be. Go buy an el cheapo card which still performs well...
I'd be upset if I needed a $400+ video card to get any kind of decent performance whatsoever.
guys dont forget that these bigdogs now completely wiped out any other competition and control the market.
lets not talk about r&d sincer all we all know that but these guys basically make a new arch ever year-year and a half and then just do minor tweeks inbetween and raise the prise like its a whole new arch
can some one bench a 400 dollar low end g80 and then bench a 650 dollar high end one...youll be suprissed how much or should I say how little the gain would be for your 250 bucks
Im typing this on a conroe E6600 at 3.3g and cost me 300 bucks.
I paid 300 bucks for a pentium mmx 233mhx when it came out
see what im saying here...prices stayed inline...on the other hand gpu have skyrocketed and they are milking us with every new bump every 4-6 months
that is why the anti trust got involved
I hope the r600 comes in at a msrp at 500 for the top dog but I know thats wishfull thinking.I can see them hitting about 750 if there faster than the gtx
Last edited by Skratch; 01-05-2007 at 12:38 PM.
I think the point you are missing, is yes, card prices HAVE gone higher...you bet. Talk to samsung, and thier crappy GDDR3...that fiasco raised prices...
talk to TSMC, who fubared R520. Actually, talk to the girl in document control over @ ATI, and fire her ass. She should have made sure that the documents that went out to TSMC were done properly. That's what quality control in an engineering firm is all about.
Oh, yeah, there's that too...ATI is far behind on thier releases...and still catching up. At the same time, they have lost sales, and in order to recoup the lost revenue, they've had to raise prices. Nevermind that shipping costs more, thanks to gas prices, and the value of the american dollar is VERY low ATM...so in the real scheme of things, it really DOES cost them more to buy even just the parts!
There will be no Dramuri fiasco here...collusion, maybe, in a round about way, but not out-right conspiracy.
Notice the SIZE of newer cards...yes, they are almost twice the size of two years ago. THat means double the materials, far more SMD's, Far more PCB. These things cost money, after all.
And really...it's retailers that gouge...ever seen a high-card released and sold @ MSRP? How long ago was that?
I see what you gotta say Skratch, but it seems you are being ver ynarrow-minded when it comes to this specific topic. You are simply focusing on prices in a specific market, when the whole world economy has changed....especially since P1 days!
But notice i have not mentioned Nvidia? x1950xtx was not $700 when it came out. If it was, the retailer you bought from ripped you off...not the OEM. nvidia is now releasing first...so they set the bar for prices...ATI merely follows accordingly, based on sales of the competiton @ these inflated prices. That's collusion, sure, but it's not gonna hold up in court when they balance all the books!
And please remeber that AMD are in chaerge of ATI now. hopefully they can push the market in the right direction...
Last edited by cadaveca; 01-05-2007 at 12:49 PM.
We are forgetting a few things. First the way Nvidia and ATI are competing for the top cards they are throwing things into them at all costs. These costs get passed to us. For one the GPU probably is one of the cheaper costs. You say it costs say $15 for the GPU but I wouldn't be surprised if they were getting charged $50 or so for the memory they put on those cards. So they probably sell the cards for about $250-$350 for a card that cost them $100 to make. The rest is markups from the people between them and retail. You have a good 5 tiers between you and them all marking up a good 20% or more. If you can get a group buy of about 100,000 you can probably get a 8800GTX for $400 or so directly from Nvidia.
Last edited by ewitte; 01-05-2007 at 01:06 PM.
my take:
Most people fail to realise that most complex electronics cannot be manufactured in sweat shops through child labor that pays $5 a week.
A video card may cost $60 to manufacture, but that doesn't include all the people in the work force (engineers, employees, janitors, technicians, etc.)
You can buy a 9800 for $40 today, but if you were to go and buy the capacitors, transistors and ports, etc on the card (not counting the PCB, gpu core on he card) you'd pay more than $80 just for those.
I personally get the top-of-the-line card for under $250 through my knowledge and resources of the overclocking scene. (16 pipeline X800 GTO anyone?)
It is also important to know the current prices and know when to sell your card and maybe go 2 weeks without the top-of-the-line while you're making that switch.
If anyone complains "I don't have the time for all that" - if you are reading this, you do.
There will always be people crying and whining but the fact it cards are getting exponentially faster, whiles prices are not, so in fact you get more for your money then you used to.
What it really boils down to is cards are getting more expensive to make and more and more recourses are pored in to R&D and that money has to be recovered via higher prices.
If you cant afford to buy the "BEST" anymore then join the many others who are in your position. However don't complain, Ati nor nvidia do not owe you anything. They can, will and should charge as much as their feel is fair for their product, don't like it don't buy.
Don't complain that you cant afford a Ferrari, its not their fault your financial situation is not better, you and no one else is responsible for that. You will never have everything you want, if this is a break to some people then I am sorry, but its time for a reality check.
French Duron Poof
Every time you lap a swiftech block a kitten dies
"Extreme Systems, yes. But it could also mean Extremely creative, Extremely resourceful and on and on. Please don't use the name of this site as an excuse to do stupid things" -situman
HEAT
Well guys the new top of the line ATI car is out and guess what?Its priced at where its supposed to be.
Nividia and ATI are being sued for exactly what I was complaining about.
Here is a snip of whats going on with nividia
NVIDIA Facing 51 Pending Lawsuits
NVIDIA under fire for anti-competitive and price fixing business practices
Analysts expect a stormy summer as NVIDIA faces not one, but fifty-one pending lawsuits. The 51 civil complaints filed against NVIDIA claim that the company participated in anti-competitive business agreements and price fixing strategies. Some of these civil suits allege that NVIDIA entered into these agreements with graphics rival AMD.
In March 2007, 42 civil suits were filed against NVIDIA for anti-competitive business practices; 14 of those suits alleged that the company colluded with AMD to fix prices. According to NVIDIA, most of the suits were filed in the Northern District of California. NVIDIA states that while there appear to be many civil suits, all of the suits are putative class-actions, indicating that they are from direct or indirect purchasers of NVIDIA graphics products.
Price fixing occurs when a company enters an agreement with its competitor to set a minimum selling price for a particular product or family of products. In this case, many of the suits allege that AMD (then ATI) and NVIDIA artificially inflated the value of high-end and enthusiast components.
Currently there is roughly an even-split in market share between AMD and NVIDIA, with NVIDIA holding 28.5% of the graphics market and AMD picking up another 23%. AMD saw the biggest loss last year with the introduction of NVIDIA's G80-family GPUs -- the company's high-end GPU.
Late last year AMD and NVIDIA received subpoenas from the U.S. Department of Justice alleging that both companies violated antitrust laws. The suit was sparked after AMD's acquisition of ATI was approved; leading to the belief that NVIDIA had somehow cooperated with AMD in regards to the acquisition. The fact that AMD and NVIDIA are long time partners also sparked debate but the U.S. Department of Justice did not reveal any specific allegations against AMD, ATI or NVIDIA.
Along with the U.S. Department of Justice, Intel also issued subpoenas against AMD and ATI, requesting that all documents related to the AMD-ATI merger be reviewed. Intel, also under anti-trust litigation with AMD, was unsuccessful in lobbying for further sanctions. AMD successfully absorbed ATI last year.
AMD senior executives indicated last year that even with ATI under its wing, it will still be cooperating, while simultaneously competing, with NVIDIA for the foreseeable future
You buy a graphics card for 500$ and then you sue the company because you dont have any money left? Given the broad consumer base nvidia got and the microscopic complaints aimed at them it doesnt seem like a universal problem to me. If prices are to high dont buy the top of the line 800$ card but calm down and settle for a 170$ X1900GT which should smoke any game to date.
Intel is like Egypt in Rome:total war
The top of the line ATI/AMD car is now $399 That is what the card is worth and where all top of the line cards should of stayed at.
ATI and Nvidia have been cought in a act to both keep upping the prices and alow each other to have there time on the market.It dosnt take a genius to notice that these cards didnt launch at the same time.They did this on purpose to each have there market share and stay very close in performance just to get us to keep switching back and forth.
I was right and noticed this 3 years ago,I didnt want to say anything until I saw the trend get completly out of hand when some cards were costing 800 and above.
while all this time we had the ATI/NIVDIA wars on the forums they would hold meetings together and look at different stateges to get us to go back and forth while they make the cake.
Interesting points Skratch.
Only 2 things...
1) While the HD 2900XT is only $400, the 8800GTS 320MB is only $300
2) the 8800GTS mostly outperforms the 2900XT
Rig 1: E6400 @ 3.0Ghz // ASUS P5B-DLX // G.Skill 2GB DDR2 800 @ 4-4-3-4 // Western Digital and Seagate Drives = 1.5TB HDD // eVGA 9600GT KO
Rig 2: FX-55 @ Stock // MSI nForce 4 Platinum // Mushkin 1GB DDR 400 @ 2.5-3-3 // Western Digital Caviar 160GB // Sapphire X1950PRO
No the HD 2900Xt was not completed at that time AMD wont give any free "airtime" to nvidia on purpose because it will only hurt themselves, shifting marketshare towards nvidia for example. They wont "conspire" if they are hurting themselves.
Intel is like Egypt in Rome:total war
If you think so thats fine my friend,You are the exact consumer that they love.
ever wonder why they never launch at the same time? 10 bucks says AMD will win this time with driver updates and Nvidia will wait(on purpose)to let AMD make some money and then AMD will do the same.
THEY ARE GETTING SUED FOR THIS AND HAVE BEEN COUGHT
this has been going on for the last 3 years,One would have its glory and then the other and so on while they would both up the prices on every refresh.
They havent been cought of anything, Its swallow claims. They are competing with products and marketshare thats were the money is. Thats were these anticompete files seems swallow to me. You can get a 8800GTS 320mb (high end enough) for 400$, want it lower? ask your goverment to remove the tax for it.
Intel is like Egypt in Rome:total war
I agree with Skratch.
It sucks that the videocard companies are doing this. Absolutely every other part of a computer has gone down in price. Heck, I saw a brand new Dual Core AMD system with LCD monitor at Sam's for $600 and Nvidia has the nerve to ask over $800 just for the latest 8800-Ultra cards?
These last few years I just stick with cheaper videocards.. I bought a 7900GS on sale last fall for ~$130 and I only went with a new card because my old X850XT was AGP and I needed a PCI-E card. Unless I just can't play a game I don't upgrade and hopefully I will never spend more than a couple hundred on a videocard ever again. I didn't mind $300 as an upper limit but 8freakinghundred bucks for a video card and twice that for SLI?No thanks... way too rich for a cheap old man like me.
Besides even a crummy old 7900GS with a 3.2GHz C2D behind it plays everything out there.
Join the XtremeSystems WCG crunching team!
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lol at your name... 8800GTS is not "high end" at all... GTX/Ultra are high end end of...
FX8350 @ 4.0Ghz | 32GB @ DDR3-1200 4-4-4-12 | Asus 990FXA @ 1400Mhz | AMD HD5870 Eyefinity | XFX750W | 6 x 128GB Sandisk Extreme RAID0 @ Aerca 1882ix with 4GB DRAM
eXceed TJ07 worklog/build
You get what i mean...right? and what so funny about my name
Intel is like Egypt in Rome:total war
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