Storm Vs. Apogee: Too Much Hype?

[WeStSiDePLaYa]

NEW TEST RESULTS
http://www.thetechrepository.com/showthread.php?t=78






I will be clearing thing up the entire storm against apogee debate.




Flow rate and pressure drop.

As you can see, under the same conditions, the apogee produces a flowrate of 3.5GPM and the Storm produces 2.1GPM. Further graphs will be calibrated to this when noted.



C/W Vs Flow Single Naked Core

This die size is representitive of a bare single core proccesor.

Here we can see at the Storms flow of 2GPM, it has a C/W of 0.132

The Apogee at the SAME 2GPM has a C/W of .174

With a difference of .042c/w. At 80W heatdump, this would mean a 3.36C difference in temp in favour of the Storm.

When the Apogee's C/W is calculated at a realistic flow rate for its pressure drop(refer to second graph) the difference is .036C/W. Making the difference 2.88C.



C/W Vs Flow Dual Core/IHS Cpu

This 32mm die is more representitive of a dual core, quad core, or a cpu with a IHS.


The Storm at 2GPM has a C/W of .044C

The Apogee at the same 2GPM has a C/W of .051C

The difference is .007C/W, at 100W heat load, this works out to 0.7C Not even a single degree difference.

When the Apogee's C/W is calculated for its lower pressure drop(see graph two), it is found that its C/W is .047C.

A difference of .003C. at a 100W heat dump, this works out to be a .3C difference. The Storm beats the Apogee, but not even by half a degree.





Live CPU Testing

Single Core CPU Used

As you can see in the VERY best conditions, the Storm beats the Apogee by no more than .4C. Not even half a degree in actual real world testing. No interpretations are needed here. The Apogee is within half a degree on a single core processor.



CONCLUSIONS/REFLECTIONS

-The Storm is the winner here, but by no more than a single degree. Is that worth double the price of the apogee? In most cases the amount of money saved by buying the Apogee over the Storm, you could go up almost two CPU bins. So for having a 1C(or less) hotter CPU, you could have an X2 4400+ instead of a X2 3800+. Or PC8500 instead of PC7200, or a 7900GS over a 7600GT. Or with that money you can buy a better radiator.

-As well all know, the Storm is known for its jets. However, they are very easily clogged. Is it worth having to worry about wether or not the jets are clogged?

-As previous testing has shown, it takes THREE Apogees to equal the pressure drop of a SINGLE Storm. How will a Storm perform with one or two GPU blocks added to the loop? More importantly, how well will your GPU blocks cool the ever hotter GPU's coming out?, when the Storm cuts down greatly on their flow?


-The Storm is designed to effectively cool a concentrated area, the Apogee is designed to cool a larger area. How will this come into play when Quad Cores become common, and now that both AMD and Intel solder their IHS onto the core. [b](Note by MaxxxRacer: The Storm outperforms the Apogee on a die size equiavlent to that of a 65nm quad core. Futhermore, CPU cores of the quad, octa, etc variations will all swing up and down in size depending on the manufacturing process BUT will generally hit a MAX size of roughly the equivalent of Lee's testbed)[b]




Maybe the Storm is more hype than it is worth....

[clokker]

-As well all know, the Storm is known for its jets. However, they are very easily clogged. Is having a CPU cooler by less than one degree, worth having to empty your loop, take apart your block, and clean the jets, every month to retain full perfomance worth it?

Maybe the Storm is more hype than it is worth....

Speaking of hype...where did this little nugget of info come from?

Although I can agree that I saw little improvement from a Apogee to a Storm (I have both revisions, BTW), I have never seen the jets get clogged as you describe even after a significantly longer stretch than one month.

Say what you will about the price/performance ratio between the two designs but I don't see the point of clouding the debate with what is more an issue of pre-install prep/cleaning than an (implied) design flaw.

[Jochenp]

Well, 1C is actually quite a lot, if you look to it from a watercooling perspective.
I think almost ALL waterblocks that are in production now will give the same temperatures in a range of 5-8 degrees.

[IanY]

OOOOoooooo Excuse me as I go hide behind the fireproof barricades

[WeStSiDePLaYa]

Speaking of hype...where did this little nugget of info come from?

Although I can agree that I saw little improvement from a Apogee to a Storm (I have both revisions, BTW), I have never seen the jets get clogged as you describe even after a significantly longer stretch than one month.

Say what you will about the price/performance ratio between the two designs but I don't see the point of clouding the debate with what is more an issue of pre-install prep/cleaning than an (implied) design flaw.

i will reword for clarity. and monthly seems to be when its needed from what ive seen around forums.

Well, 1C is actually quite a lot, if you look to it from a watercooling perspective.
I think almost ALL waterblocks that are in production now will give the same temperatures in a range of 5-8 degrees.

as you can see though, the actual maximum difference in the realword testing was .4C.

You will get more by spending the saved money on a cpu thats faster and have a high multi, than you will with a .4C cooler cpu.

[Jochenp]

The apogee is a joke though,
600X series were better, and by a decent amount in lowflow situations.
I hate how it always seems like there are only two options:
-Impigment or semi-impigment blocks (storm, nexxxus, aquaxtreme mp5)
-Apogee

There are alot of blocks that make a compromise between semi-impigment and "apogee"-design (mostly from germany), there are the 600X's, who should be back in production IMO (yeah, keep on dreaming Jochen, like Swiftech will ever admit they hyped the apogee, just to be able to release a new block on "old" technology)...

[Timmay]

Hmmm TBH you really need to test the Apogee with the same size barbs for this to be worth the ... well Paper.

[WeStSiDePLaYa]

The apogee is a joke though,
600X series were better, and by a decent amount in lowflow situations.
I hate how it always seems like there are only two options:
-Impigment or semi-impigment blocks (storm, nexxxus, aquaxtreme mp5)
-Apogee

There are alot of blocks that make a compromise between semi-impigment and "apogee"-design (mostly from germany), there are the 600X's, who should be back in production IMO (yeah, keep on dreaming Jochen, like Swiftech will ever admit they hyped the apogee, just to be able to release a new block on "old" technology)...

while it is most likely true the 6002 may be the best performing of the three. one of its fatal flaws was the inability to open it for cleaning.

and now between the apogee and storm, it seems the apogee is the way to go for a few reasons, performing pretty much matching the storm. compatability with every platform, cost, and that adding multiple gpu blocks will have less of an effect on perfomance compared to high restriction blocks like the storm.(or rbx/tdx etc.)

[speed bump]

Figured as much.

It all comes down to do you want that extra little bit though. For that little I would rather move up to a better rad than a slightly better waterblock.

Also no Swiftech won't come back out with the 600x series unless Cu prices take a nose dive.

[WeStSiDePLaYa]

Figured as much.

It all comes down to do you want that extra little bit though. For that little I would rather move up to a better rad than a slightly better waterblock.

Also no Swiftech won't come back out with the 600x series unless Cu prices take a nose dive.

another good point, i will add it.

[IanY]

Well a spade is a spade. Old technology or not, an Apogee clearly works. Is it every bit as good as a Storm? Maybe, maybe not. However, in real terms, if Storm is really one of the best blocks, or the best block, a 1 degree C temp difference makes the Apogee a pretty damn good block. For those who seek a bargain, what's wrong with a cheaper but effective block like an Apogee? To those who want the best (and who doesn't), then look no further than the Storm. I don't understand why people are so hot and bothered by this whole issue.

[Nanometer]

Good review. I said about a week ago the Storm was better than the Apogee, but by barilly a degree C. That guess of mine turned out to be pretty darn close.

Once again great job on putting all the information back together.

[OCme]

The Storm G5 is still the "crème de la crème" of water blocks, mostly because the base is made of silver which has better thermal characteristics. It cost me a little more... but hey, you get what you pay for!

[IanY]

The Silver Storm G5 is not a commercially available product. Many of us would happily pay for that block if it can even be bought. Can we not talk about hardware that is not for sale? Hell, I'll order two or three right now if they are selling.

[OCme]

The Silver Storm G5 is not a commercially available product. Many of us would happily pay for that block if it can even be bought. Can we not talk about hardware that is not for sale? Hell, I'll order two or three right now if they are selling.

No, it's not commercially available, but if you are patient and keep checking ebay & the for sale section in various forums they can be had. I got mine from millerdude who in turn got it from freecableguy who was the original owner. I searched for several months, but my patience & persistence paid off. It may be 3rd hand but I finally got one...

[Fairydust]

NOTE THE APOGEE WAS RUN WITH 10MM FITTINGS, INSTEAD OF THE STANDARD 12.7MM FITTINGS USED ON THE STORM, ACCORDING TO THIS CHART, THE APOGEE'S FLOW RATE IS HIGHLY IMPACTED BY FITTING SIZE.

Good point, although the impact 7 mm vs 10 mm is a lot bigger than 10 mm vs 12.7 mm. Stilll should have equal conditions for the test.

...This die size is representitive of a bare single core proccesor....
...This 32mm die is more representitive of a dual core, quad core, or a cpu with a IHS....

If I read correctly the small die similator is a 14 mm square block = 196 mm2 area, which is pretty representative for most AMD dualcores Toledo 199 mm2, Windsor 2x512KB 183 mm2, 230 mm2 Windsor 2x1 mb.

[dnottis]

WeStSiDePLaYa

Spot on man. From playing with a few blocks myself I've come to the same realization... that no block is going to make more than 1-2 degree difference and even that can be due to the mount. I am using an Apogee and TBH I have no problems and great temps. I agree that the money is better spent on a better CPU than the Storm - also agree on the hassle of cleaning it. Basically, I read what you wrote and it reflects what I have felt for awhile. Thanks for taking the time and sticking your neck out to give us some cold, hard truth -

I do enjoy seeing the fanboys come out to defend their baby lol.

[OCme]

For thoes interested ShoNuff listed his LR G5 for sale yesterday in the for sale section of this forum. Beter act fast... won't last long!

[Sparky]

but the apogee is ugly compared to the storm...
I do wish it looked nicer but hey it is only $50

[Clay]

Is this battle still raging? 10mm tubing.(3/8") Flow rate would be lower. But the flow speed would be up. Maybe it likes the 3/8" better. It's really hard sayin'. Still I'm not tradin' my storm. I don't think 1-2c is gonna hurt my overclock much anyway. From here I can't tell the diff. It runs nice and cool..
I'm very happy with my rig. (Better processor would be nice)

[Shift]

There was the thread last time that was started by HKPolice and Cathar clearly stated the Storm was better. Now I'm confused. The Storm is sold in a few places and is a good $30 more expensive than the Apogee, yet the Apogee performs on par with the Storm? I really want the Apogge for my WC build, but I'm not sure if it is worth getting because there are these threads that pop-up and question the Apogee's performance. It says in MaxxxRacer's Guide To Current WaterCooling Components sticky

Swiftech Apogee - 45USD - The newest block from Swiftech that takes a step backwards in performance. It is essentially a MCW5000 respun with a new manufacturing process (cheaper), and new delrin top. While Swiftech says its the best thing since sliced bread and Television, please try to avoid it as EVERY other block on this list performs superior to the Apogee.

So what is the deal?

Also one quick question, which block would be better, the Apogee or the AquaXtreme MP-05 PRO Limited Edition?

[IanY]

If Johnny told you to jump off the Sears Tower.... hehe... buy a Storm.. it'll make you socially acceptable in here

[DarkCow]

i picked up an apogee for 40 bucks, ill never buy a diffrent block, i <3 it.

[Clay]

buy a Storm.. it'll make you socially acceptable in here

OMG!!! I'm politcally correct. It's never happened before! I really didn't plan it that way!!! Oh No!! My reputation is ruined!! 40yrs worth of bad werk ruined over a waterblock. LOL I like my water block. I like the design. I like the way it looks. I like the way it works. And if any comercial block can out proform it. They have yet to prove it.

Buy the MP-05 PRO Limited Edition. It's a really nice block. And you won't find yourself on the defensive for buying it.

Edit: WeStSiDePLaYa Nice work putting that together. I'm still reading it.

[nikhsub1]

At the end of Lee's test at systemcooling I asked him to test the maze 3 in the 'real world' testing he performed as I had a hunch the maze 3 would give similar results to the rest of the blocks. Guess what? It did. Most modern waterblocks are very similar in performance, there is no doubt about that. With that said, if we want to see which block performs the best (no matter by how much) we need to test. The best test to look at is the c/w vs. hydraulic power graph as this REMOVES the c/w vs. flowrate and the c/w vs. headloss out of the equation.