Hey
I`m curious about using ethylene in autocascade with R507 or other high stage gas. Anyone here on XS made working auto-c with ethylene ? From P/T chart I see, that it needs about -43*C@15bar to condense, with R507 or R402a it could be possible at all, but never seen any auto-c with R1150
i believe PC ICE did one a long time ago. all of his threads are either deleted or somehow hidden though...
maybe we could get some of them unlocked by now (the ones that contain usefull information like this).
in the past you could use XR to dig up the old threads, but now that's gone too...
here are a few pics i dug up on Team Puss...
It was only -80C, but I think that was about the best one at the time...
If i remember correctly, the first stage was actually R134a. Don't quote me on that, it was well over a year ago.
Last edited by eshbach; 11-04-2006 at 04:07 PM.
I used to have links here demonstrating how awesome I am, but it's been so long that they're not very relevant (and the pictures have disappeared), so I guess I'll have to get working on new stuff.
I'm sure it would be possible. Hard, but possible. I rekon lots of sub-cooling would help to condense the R1150.
Luke did you know I,m 100% polish my grandmother(moms side) was 2 when she came to USA with my great grandparents,on my dads side its was my great grandparents that came from Poland.Maybe our blood lines have crossed some where?
Luke in my opinion while you are getting results,way to much is on a dangerous experimental basis. I and I,m sure your girlfriend wouldn't want you hurt.
I personally believe you are trying to progress to fast,chasing that low number and don't have a through understanding of theory and how specialized components work.
I wish you would buy that book I keep recommending and start reading till you have all 1000 pages plus memorized. It will make you a much better builder once you have a much better understanding on how complex refrigeration is,especially cryogenic refrigeration and their controls. I sure hope you take this advice. Anywhere from a 80's edition forward will help you tremendously. The newer the edition the more you will pay. $5.00 to $75.00. It's a college level book but written so it can be understood by high school students,It may even be used in some high schools. Many illustrations to help you understand.Walt
The Laws of Thermodynamics say:
Zeroth Law: "You must play the game."
First Law: "You can't win."
Second Law: "You can't break even."
Third Law: "You can't quit the game."
Do you wanna Play Thermodynamics ????????I forgot "you must"
Speaking to all now,If you want to learn all there is to learn about refrigeration solely from forums and your own experimentation, it will take you well over 100 years or so to catch up to the knowledge published in on "Book"
"Modern refrigeration and air conditioning"
The Laws of Thermodynamics say:
Zeroth Law: "You must play the game."
First Law: "You can't win."
Second Law: "You can't break even."
Third Law: "You can't quit the game."
Do you wanna Play Thermodynamics ????????
Ah but if I remember correctly when the thread was bumped for load temps, he never posted them. Something tells me it was an unloaded only temperature with no capacity...
As far as condensing r1150 and experimentation, well I agree with wd', when it comes to explosive flammable things, experimentation should not be done but intead thuro research.
But it is possible, but you want more like -60C to condense it
If you have a cooling question or concern feel free to contact me.
Three stage auto maybe?Originally Posted by n00b 0f l337
Ah but if I remember correctly when the thread was bumped for load temps, he never posted them. Something tells me it was an unloaded only temperature with no capacity...
As far as condensing r1150 and experimentation, well I agree with wd', when it comes to explosive flammable things, experimentation should not be done but intead thuro research.
But it is possible, but you want more like -60C to condense it
@wdrzal, that book sounds interesting. I think I'll pick up a copy if I can find one somewhere.
I don't think an autoc should have stages frankly. Separation just doesnt happen enough to call them stages.
If you have a cooling question or concern feel free to contact me.
Hey
I`m curious about using ethylene in autocascade with R507 or other high stage gas. Anyone here on XS made working auto-c with ethylene ? From P/T chart I see, that it needs about -43*C@15bar to condense, with R507 or R402a it could be possible at all, but never seen any auto-c with R1150
i have the gases, but cant be bothered tring. Personally a small cascade is the way i would be heading. Rotaries beside each other a plate hx
-100c load
straight gases in each stage.
or 3 compressors r507 r1150 r14.
http://forums.extremeoverclocking.co...1&postcount=57
Last edited by kayl; 11-04-2006 at 08:33 PM.
Noob is correct ,there are other ways to separate heat ,but I made no mention of them on the forum . I have done some experimentation to prove my design but never built a complete unit yet. While I think I can condense r23 in a single stage unit with some modification that is very complex .I don't intend to say anything further until I build a working unit I am sure can be built safely with others. I will Tell you the mod is extremely complex to make and you must have a mill and precision lathe to make the mod, so its out of the DIY end of thing for now and it may never come to be.
I think we should stop completely and remove anything over the -100c club membership, As most of these temps are unloaded and we all know mean nothing. I believe even the -100c club should be loaded temps of a agreed ed wattage, say 200 watts.
I apologize to you guy who where given lower club numbers,but I believe they were not only unloaded but dealt out by mods and admin who are not specialist in the cooling Field. And not done with verication and wth completly safe rigs. If XS is going to be the best and most EXTREME ,that has to apply to safety also.Since we are pushing many componates way past there intended use.
Those are my honest feelings............Walt
ps: pushing for a number that means nothing is encouraging some to do it just for the number and not to contribute anything to cpu cooling. Plus they are taking many risks to get a number thats means nothing.
I think the mods and admin should discuss seriously either eliminating the -c clubs or limit them to -c club under 200 watt load verified by majority of senior members that not only the number was reached ,it was done using all safety precaution and built in a safe manner.
Walt
The Laws of Thermodynamics say:
Zeroth Law: "You must play the game."
First Law: "You can't win."
Second Law: "You can't break even."
Third Law: "You can't quit the game."
Do you wanna Play Thermodynamics ????????
Which brings the question of 200w.
Few of us know that resistor load isn't as "hot" as cartridge heater load. As well as design of load block itself can change the result quite a bit.
[SIGPIC]http://www.vapoli.com/Images/Forum/vapoli.jpg[/SIGPIC]
Single Stage Work Logs
heatware: jinu117
-100c should a cascade benching a pc at load.
too many ppl cooling resitor loads and not pcs
Nice to hear that wdrzal, you`re the polish manLuke did you know I,m 100% polish my grandmother(moms side) was 2 when she came to USA with my great grandparents,on my dads side its was my great grandparents that came from Poland.Maybe our blood lines have crossed some where?
Luke in my opinion while you are getting results,way to much is on a dangerous experimental basis. I and I,m sure your girlfriend wouldn't want you hurt.
I personally believe you are trying to progress to fast,chasing that low number and don't have a through understanding of theory and how specialized components work.
I wish you would buy that book I keep recommending and start reading till you have all 1000 pages plus memorized. It will make you a much better builder once you have a much better understanding on how complex refrigeration is,especially cryogenic refrigeration and their controls. I sure hope you take this advice. Anywhere from a 80's edition forward will help you tremendously. The newer the edition the more you will pay. $5.00 to $75.00. It's a college level book but written so it can be understood by high school students,It may even be used in some high schools. Many illustrations to help you understand.
About that book, I would buy it if it`s possible to buy it in poland, maybe you can help me with that and buy it for me, I will pay you and you will send it to me ? Hope it`s possible...
About ethylene, why I`m asking about condensing it in auto-c...the answer is simple, I want to have lower HX temps in my II stage cascade, to condense R14 with reasonable discharge pressures...Cascade is just finished but I`m still want to find a way to condense R14 in other way, safer way for all of us.
R507/R1150 autocascading stage would help me a lot to achieve lower HX temps under load instead of using co2 or R23.
And about membership in -xxx*C club, those words are about me ? that I`m doing "empy" numbers to just join to the stupid clubs ?
I´m sure it was a general statement; people shouldn´t hunt for the lowest temp and forget about safety.
Your latest cascade, the one for John, will do -100* C loaded right?
Anyway good thread, I think it´s a good idea to stop once in a while and ask questions.
I´ll look into it Walt, although I´m learning a lot from this forum, it´s mostly practical info, no real theory.
Last edited by Jack; 11-05-2006 at 02:29 AM.
Yeah, it`s doing -114*C@155W for 1h of testing
I think this is the book that walt means:
for people from the US: http://www.amazon.com/Modern-Refrige...e=UTF8&s=books
a store in germany (ships to Poland as well):
http://www.amazon.de/Refrigeration-C...=books-intl-de
I've tried building an r507/ethylene autocascade but only got -80*C unloaded from it for a short period of time, somehow the balance in the system isn't constant. In 2 weeks I'll try a new setup but it will most likely fail.
@jinu: depends on where you measure. joule=joule the source doesn't matter.
@eschbach: the pc_ice autocascade is in my opinion the biggest crap shown on any forum. And believe me, the topics about it didn't contain usefull info unless your trying to kill yourself.
@luke: hmm I'll give the ethane bottle another try next weekendI can't believe I still didn't do it. sorry dude!
you shouldnt try or build anything without knowing the basics! basics in thermodynamics, saftey, equipment handling etc. those saftey statements from walt are boring, but he is right.Iīm sure it was a general statement; people shouldnīt hunt for the lowest temp and forget about safety.
Your latest cascade, the one for John, will do -100* C loaded right?
Anyway good thread, I think itīs a good idea to stop once in a while and ask questions.
Iīll look into it Walt, although Iīm learning a lot from this forum, itīs mostly practical info, no real theory.
An autocascade can be the ideal place to condense something like R1150, but I think it would be safer to do so in a multistage/more than 2 stage Auto.
Yes, an auto CAN be separated into it's individual stages, we just have to remember that the separation is not complete in any of the stages in operation. That said, there tend to be defined groups of refrigerants that will condense more effectively in each stage.
ie. A 4 stage Auto. R134a, R22, R23, R1150 (just as an example)
Stage 1 will tend to use some 134a, R22, and a little R23.
Stage 2 will tend to use a little 134a, R22, and a little R23.
Stage 3 will tend to use a little 134a, a little R22, mostly R23, and some R1150.
Stage 4 will tend to use a little R22, some R23, and mostly R1150.
This is all in operation, and after some cooldown in all stages.
Whatever is used to separate the stages that's the kind of operation seen. the more complete the separation the more effective the operation, but there are some amazing Autocascades out there and they've been used for years with a lot higher pressure gasses than R1150.
That's part of why I don't really consider fractionation to be a serious issue in an autocascade as it's being made out to be. You're never going to have a 'pure' gas within a stage. If the gasses (such as 404a or 402a etc) fractionate and still do the job they have to do within a stage, then the system will still work fine. You just have to do a better job of reading your subcooling in every stage after you've added gases. That can tell you where you stand, and what you need to do, alongside your superheat measurements.
Personally I think that a 3-4 stage Auto would be ideal for getting R1150 to work for you. Something like R290, R23, R1150 should work well.
As for changing the -100 club, I'm not sure I see much point. Not that I've really seen it as that big a deal, it's just there's always going to be arguments about how it should be dealt with and that's not really what it's all about.
It's about actually getting to see -100c on a calibrated meter, for real, in person. The safety aspect of it is really important too, as always, but that's not 'the heart' of it. The core of 'the club' is pushing your own limits, stretching yourself to the step of phase design to make a system that can get to -100c.
I hope that doesn't sound like safety shouldn't be taken into account. All I'm saying is that it seems like no one's ever happy with the way things are, and it seems like every once in a while someone pipes in saying that the -100c club doesn't mean anything the way it is. I disagree. I think it means a lot and I'm really proud to be part of it.
I don't know if I see much point in having a -130 or -150 club in addition to it, it just seems silly to be honest.
Being a part of the -100c club is just a designation that you've built a cascade that's worked well enough to get you there. That you've pushed yourself and your skills far enough to make it happen. Is it really worth starting a debate on criteria? I think that focussing on our accomplishments, instead of pointing out our flaws, should be something we keep in mind too.
If a safety aspect is added to the club then I'm all for it. Adding that it has to be under load, or a certain load, or a certain kind of load tester, just makes it that much more likely for people to start saying 'he's cheating' or 'that's not a proper load tester' etc etc and it takes all of the enjoyment out of the project itself.
If that's what is chosen by the majority then that's fine with me, it just seems like there's no real reason to change it. If it get's to the point where the -100c club turns into some nasty thing where people are berated or attacked for how they do things or accusations of cheating or whatever end up being the norm, I don't want any part of it, and you can just take the tag off my avatar right now.
Besides, this is a thread about condensing R14 in a system, not to question someone's results.
Cheers
Gray
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I love you Gray :* ()Thanks for answer, it`s really fully helpfull for me, one more thanks for your opinion
if you want to condens r14 in an autocascade I would use the following gasses:
r600(a)/r290/r170 or r23/r14
I keep getting surprised at how we keep ignoring the autocascade builder that visited here not too long ago.
Remeber cryotek? Gas was listed simple and straight. R123, R22, R23, R14...
It seems to me you should have at least r22, r23, r14 at your place and R123 is rather cheap refrigerant to give it a shot? (other than fact it comes in DRUM qty at this time... in here in US...)
As for luke, shove it up to 200 or 250w load :P Than see if it is safe. I don't know what ambient temp is like on that cascade but you must expect it to be run at up to 35c ambient temperature (anything more will be too hot to be honest for sane minded bencher) as well as some extreme voltage benchers are likely to put into system
-114c at 150w is quite fun to look at no matter if it is resistor or cartridge heater load tester
[SIGPIC]http://www.vapoli.com/Images/Forum/vapoli.jpg[/SIGPIC]
Single Stage Work Logs
heatware: jinu117
jinu, -130*C was just a shot, now with a little bit more gas I`ve got -123*C idle/-114*C loaded, but this doesn`t matter at all now.
I must talk with John, I would go for rebuild I stage and make it working with R22/R23/R1150 or something similar. Then I can test II stage under "hotter" dummy...and results should be better and pressures more reasonable
Sounds good to me
Don't take me wrong Luke, I love your cascades
[SIGPIC]http://www.vapoli.com/Images/Forum/vapoli.jpg[/SIGPIC]
Single Stage Work Logs
heatware: jinu117
You're 100% right Jin, and it's something I forget a lot too.
R123 isn't easy to find around here, not something used a lot if at all that I've seen so it's a special order item and not cheap either.
It's perfect though, as it evaporates at 'room temp' making it keep things consistent for the low temp gasses to do their job.
When I finally get through the work I have here, I'm really looking forward to getting back to research work again. Autocascades are one thing on my list that I'm pretty weak on and want to improve. Hard to play with these things when you're commited to doing the work.
Cryotek is missed around here. I wish he would have stayed but I also wish he could have been able to give more info on his setups. As is always the case when it's your work, you have to be careful about sharing info that you're not allowed to share
Currently though, I'd have to say that Kayl and Luke have had the most success with Auto's that I can think of, and I have a lot of respect for them both because of it. They're the most difficult animals to tame
Gray
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"Energy can be neither created nor destroyed", first law of thermodynamics.
If you put in 200 watts somehow 200 watts either comes out completely or part gets held my the mass as latent heat, but as 200 watts is feed continuously the latent heat will reaches a maximum for that substance and 200 watts will exit. minus small energy losses in other thermodynamic areas.
The Laws of Thermodynamics say:
Zeroth Law: "You must play the game."
First Law: "You can't win."
Second Law: "You can't break even."
Third Law: "You can't quit the game."
Do you wanna Play Thermodynamics ????????
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