Ethylene and Auto-c (big discussion about safety,refrigerants,argon + R14 blend etc)

[jinu117]

"Energy can be neither created nor destroyed", first law of thermodynamics.

If you put in 200 watts somehow 200 watts either comes out completely or part gets held my the mass as latent heat, but as 200 watts is feed continuously the latent heat will reaches a maximum for that substance and 200 watts will exit. minus small energy losses in other thermodynamic areas.

I hope everyone knows this... and I am pretty sure everyone does. By same token, if same amount of refrigerant is boiling inside evaporator, evaporator design shouldn't matter at holding same amount of load. Let's get bit more descriptive when we talk about this rather than in pure theory... Sometimes, this simplisitic fundamental talk will just get us no where...
My explanation (which I was writing on post and stopped when I thought about that it is about luke's idea of autocascade) was that due to the distance of subjected heat material through multiple medium (thermal interface material, copper, than thermal interface, evaporator) the surface area of such heat produced (resistor will have much less density per say in general due to size, shape of it and method of interface to the copper, and not the perfect world of perfect insulation gives this variances. In fact, at least few of us who used cartridge heater to be superior heating material in such case than typical load resistor being used for load tester. Not to mention safety aspect of it...
Anyways, let's try to keep subject to where it belongs.
In my all honesty, ethylene is bit of off child on autocascading due to some properties it has in my book. I've discussed this before...
#1 is that I don't know full checmical behavoir of gas with some potential other gases in mixture condition. And it can be rather violent gas.
#2 the boiling temp, critical pressure sits where I would consider it somewhat undesirable for effort involved in condensing it in auto cascade. Typical gas like R22 can't really condense it in safety zone. Which brings more exotic gas like R116 or R23 in it. At which point, it almost looks like wasting the system design when R14 becomes next acceptable jump. There might be another pure group of refrigerant that I am missing which can condense ethylene without going for another stage but I don't really think I have seen one yet.

Just my 2c on this matter.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

Very few have a clue as to the real applicable law of thermal dynamics (Ever argue with creationists though they are unfairly retarded I guess) but they do give you a good idea how un aware the greater masses are of the basics of physics period, and honestly I can't expect them to bother.

Perhaps here We aut to post a thread and stick it containing basic thermodynamic principles.

And eventually make a set of stickies that one must read and then write a basic test in order to enter riskier forums, such as custom phase.

There is an Idea, and of WCB regs, (Workers Compensation Board) they do with work site safety and have a fairly well layed out protocols for nearly every thing imaginable.

[DetroitAC]

If you put in 200 watts somehow 200 watts either comes out completely or part gets held my the mass as latent heat, but as 200 watts is feed continuously the latent heat will reaches a maximum for that substance and 200 watts will exit. minus small energy losses in other thermodynamic areas.

A post with some basic thermo would be good. I think you mean to say sensible heat Walt. I know you know these things but for the benefit of others...Latent heat involves phase change like condensing water liquid from water vapor in air, boiling, evaporation, etc. Sensible heat involves heating a single substance in a single phase. Basically a simple practical way to determine which is which...

Latent heating = heat is added, the temperature doesn't change but the composition of the substance changes

Sensible heating = heat is added, and the temperature changes

of course same applies to cooling

[wdrzal]

Jinu 2 points are right on the money, some are over reaching and don't have the tools and understanding to use these very high pressure & flammable gases safely.

Even in propane a tremendous amount of chemical energy is stored per pound.

Ethylene and gases like r23 r14 and other are only for very advanced builders.

You must not only posses the mechanical skill to build the rig,but the intellectual knowledge and correct tools to work with these gases safely.

In my opinion no matter who you are ,you do not get to that point after only a few builds,or "copys" is more the correct word. AS most are just copying prior builds with slight modifications without completely understanding what will happen.YES you should know in advance what will happen. Enough is known about gases to predict this if you take the time to seek out that knowledge.

I care about every user on this site like my employees or family or best friends. If we allow cowboy refrigeration to be practiced ,it's only a matter of time until a disaster happens.

I,m logging off for 2 days,have doc appointments both days so Jin and Ron look over the place and I want everyone to be alive and un-hurt when I get Back.

I Glad too see at least some are finally starting to see my side of how important rules and regs are for very dangerous gases and what can happen if misused.

[wdrzal]

A post with some basic thermo would be good. I think you mean to say sensible heat Walt. I know you know these things but for the benefit of others...Latent heat involves phase change like condensing water liquid from water vapor in air, boiling, evaporation, etc. Sensible heat involves heating a single substance in a single phase. Basically a simple practical way to determine which is which...

Latent heating = heat is added, the temperature doesn't change but the composition of the substance changes

Sensible heating = heat is added, and the temperature changes

of course same applies to cooling

Thanks for the correction, I'm the middle of 3 days without sleep thus the doc appointments. my cerebral hard drive needs defragmented. LOL

This is the point even I a very experienced person can make a error.that one didn't cost anyone there life, but using very dangerous gases without safety precautions just might.

Glad your here detroitAC to help out.


I'm the guy talking to Ab Lincoln and the ground hog every night

[Unknown_road]

I keep getting surprised at how we keep ignoring the autocascade builder that visited here not too long ago.
Remeber cryotek? Gas was listed simple and straight. R123, R22, R23, R14...
It seems to me you should have at least r22, r23, r14 at your place and R123 is rather cheap refrigerant to give it a shot? (other than fact it comes in DRUM qty at this time... in here in US...)

Offcourse I remember cryotek, but because he works with those gasses doesn't mean it only works with those gasses.

the thermodynamics basics aren't that hard. everything above basics is pretty hard and you need some serious understanding of calculus and mechanics before you start with it.

[jinu117]

Offcourse I remember cryotek, but because he works with those gasses doesn't mean it only works with those gasses.

the thermodynamics basics aren't that hard. everything above basics is pretty hard and you need some serious understanding of calculus and mechanics before you start with it.

Absoultely. But before we go into number crunching, everything is in understanding of concept and applicable mathamtical representation of such model. I happen to be very well versed and educated in general physics and mathematics (even in highschool years... now more than a decade ago lol), I held few state championships on mathmatics and physics competition that existed back than :P
Still, unless I take full course (not talking about job training ones you see but more academic master's degree side of thermodynamics and chemistry), and have team of such people working together, figuring out inner working of such thing as autocascade will still be more of gut feeling, extrapolation based on knowledge gained through experimentation, and some ingenuity to get there. (even if you do have such massive resources, it seems to me autocascade seems to be still bit of black magic discussing with cryotek while back)
Maybe you did not read my post after the one you have quoted but I clearly mentioned that from where I stand I don't see advantage of ethylene in auto cascade system due to it's hard to condense nature from single pure gas. I didn't say it will not work, I said that it will be impractical for doing so even if it works when there are better candidate such as R14 when intermediary gas like R23 or R116 gets involved. You can search US patent and find few mixture used in autocascade. You might have to pay to look at some specifies such as drawing or equation they used but it is rather cheap (think it was less than $20 per copy). In fact, there are some designs patented using none of the to be banned list of gas... (which I think includes R-23, R-22) All I am saying is, I really don't see ethylene as the most appropirate gas for autocascade for above mentioned reasons I see.
Maybe Co2 can act as intermediary for the mix which might work, the only thing is do ANY of us have any idea how CO2 and Ethylene behaves under pressure and high temp not to mention danger of CO2 having good chance of icing up blocking the line and just increasing way too high pressure on gas we don't want to see exploding ever...
Just more thoughts...

[Xeon th MG Pony]

And recall chem CO2 can decompose under certain conditions and release oxygen if some thing ells wants it more then the CO1 Molicul. Heat, pressure, turbulance, all the ideal conditions for such a thing to occure.

[wdrzal]

I personally didn't believe cryotec when I read his threads he never answer direct questions and was vague on the rest. all we got was some blurry pic of a bunch a junk in a box. I wish some would find the autocasade with the pink insulation around it.I believe from what Iwas told that it got to -80c r23 territory. This is the first time I dissed someone seriously like now. but all he did was post old autocascade drawings . his work that was pictured was far from pro. and all he was doing was doing to the moderator here who owns a polycold was adding argon to the professional built polycold to get low temps with no load in my opinion. I called Bull,sh*t in the thread and still stand by it till proven otherwise,then I will apologize if proven wrong.....I could go on to explain more of what I know about his work but I'll stop here.

cryotec is welcome to come back and teach you all how to build the -150 autocasde he was credited for but never shown.or the possible -180 iirc he mentioned. he disappeared when me and other older members kept asking for pictures and answers to specific questions. don't count those post as valid. until proven and backed by pictures.

people tried this before I think the user I'm thinking of it was his second time, remember the guy with the blurry boxes of stuff he claimed was advanced cooling items,until un-known to him FUGGER worked at pictographics and could enlarge the blurry pictures and clear them to show a bunch of junk in the basement.Is that thread also still around.

science its not so until it can be reproduced and verified independently

[wdrzal]

In simple terms co2 is not a good gas because it can skip the liquid state.and pumping dry ice(a solid) is hard to do.

[wdrzal]

Sorry Luke we really hijacked your thread. probably deserve it

[n00b 0f l337]

I'm pretty sure Jinu can attest to Cryo-tek's truthiness. Your posting in the same way that anyone could go "I count all of wd's post as bullsh** as I've never seen him post a picture or truly answer questions as direct as I'd like to see them directly posted."

As far as regassing a polycold, the unit DID NOT have a polycold mix of gases in it upon receiving.

[wdrzal]

sometime you can be made to beleive what is not true,because you your self don't know the truth.

I never posted a picture because I never built a rig to phase cool cpu's yet.
you don't have to beleive what I say either ,I can't force anyone.

[Blaster]

well walt, you should be the 1st person happy that cryotek didnt show clear pictures and teached everybody how to build an -180 autoc... its is VERY DANGEROUS for some1 with no experience at all to handle this gases !

as steph told us by that time, cryo didnt know very well his way about computers, i believe he teached him how to post pictures

and steph polycold had a wrong mix of gases from previous regassing from chilly i believe, so he did regase it...

[wdrzal]

I believe he added argon to get the temp posted. plus a few others. its been 25 years since the polycold was developed the mix is not a secret among major refrigeration & A/C manufactures and engineers. It runs @ 400 psi its not the mix but how its separated and used is the bigger secret.

[n00b 0f l337]

400psi high side? Not in the case of modification for computer usage. Also the r740/r14 mixing does infact help with load temperatures. You disclaim Cryo-tek and others without posting anything other than what you say and what you say has been going on for 25 years.

I welcome your talks in safety wd, but not in thread jacking.

[Blaster]

it runs at 400psi with original evap walt

[n00b 0f l337]

When r14 is a liquid, argon seeps into the liquid, sort of like adding noodles to soup, its still a liquid, just better. I do not know why it does it, but it seems to be something added to almost every r14 mix that I've found in patent information.

[Jack]

That's one special blend, r14 with argon. When Cryo added the argon, suctionpressure rose and evap temp lowered.
Which seems bizarre to me...
but I don't know everything

[n00b 0f l337]

I never understood it myself but it does not actualy just provide idle's.

[LukeXE]

So what, I should buy some argon ? ;]

[404Power]

Ya you should! :P

[MaSell]

If they do blend, then..........

Static pressure may realy go nuts, so be very carefull

Adding second "mapp bottle" for ex-tank should be good idea?

Very interesting discussion, don't stop guys

[404Power]

I would try it! cryo was(is a rly expert in autocascades and all this stuff ... I think / hope () the he knows what he does/did!
Argon gave him a quite better temp than without it! Of course no sinle nanogrmm will/can condense at these R14-temps, but nevertheless it helps keeping the temp low!
So I would try it!
But as MaSell said .... don't forget to plan in some or one rly big expansion tank! ... + safety valve and/or pressure switch! I will do so too in my auto-c! ^^

[liquidcooled]

what gases would yeild the lowest temps, While still being safe to use then?