As cryo-tek said in the other thread, the fiberglass was used as a *gasp* temporary insulation so that if he had to make any changes before it was finalized, he wouldnt have to deal with tearing apart something that was cast in foam.
As cryo-tek said in the other thread, the fiberglass was used as a *gasp* temporary insulation so that if he had to make any changes before it was finalized, he wouldnt have to deal with tearing apart something that was cast in foam.
Originally Posted by Xeon th MG Pony
He was posting BS any you guys believed him.
wdrzal signed :Walt Drzal( at least the un named member seems to be good at condescending)
ps so much for unnamed member,I have nothing to hide. "almost" any dummy could have figured that one out.
Any time I see a severe safety violation or someone posting BS,yes I do challenge them,in public because many thousands will read these threads. There is already way to many "ideas" posted as they are tested working fact when they are mostly BS..
Nothing wrong with a public debate, the correct person can always prove what he is saying. I very rarely give a answer without a explanation of "why or how" Most is from memory ,so I may make a mistake or two ,but if I do ,I'll apologize for the mistake. I don't have the time to look up and verify every thing I post.
Many here just post but never say how they arrived to that conclusion.
The Laws of Thermodynamics say:
Zeroth Law: "You must play the game."
First Law: "You can't win."
Second Law: "You can't break even."
Third Law: "You can't quit the game."
Do you wanna Play Thermodynamics ????????I forgot "you must"
I will say this again -
I hope you guys have gotten this out of your systems. It would much better for all if you could take care of your disagreements in private. I am asking each of you to please put and end to this public bickering. There is a place here for all of us. I don't want to see any empty seats.
thanks
Just for the record, the following is not bickering...
To quote wdrzal:
First I would just like to say, I am a very new member to this forum, and have found it to be an incredible resource and an inspiration. I like cryo-tek, have 20+ years under my belt working with autocascade systems (more than half of which was in the R&D aspect). At the place I was doing this work, we would always use fiberglass insulation for the initial tests on a new cascade design, just to see if we were in the ball park, and to catch any accidentally plugged cap tubes. In order to avoid the inevitable intrusion of water vapor as was expressed in the wdrzal's comment above, the entire fiberglass insulated heat exchanger would be carefully wrapped and sealed in a plastic bag. In fact we got so good at this, that many times we would only see about a 5% to 10% reduction in performance, as compared to when the cascade was later polyurethane insulated.He did post the above picture of his work, the one above using fiberglass insulation. That told me he knew very little about thermodynamics or cooling in general. As moisture will pass right thru the fiberglass insulation.
wdrzal it is good that you question things, and are not willing to accept something just because others do. This is where true innovation comes from. This is also what I had to do when working for Polycold, in order for the P-20 (as well as other designs) to become a reality. If I hadn't questioned and persisted in my desire to test out what my boss thought was an unworkable design, we wouldn't have achieved the break through that it was. However I also had my share of being too stubborn to see beyond what I had grown used to, and also found myself being critical of other peoples ways of doing things. Just remember that things are not always as they seem on the surface.
To quote wdrzal:
This is an easy one to answer. Cryo-tek's main experience has been in auto cascade design (30 years to the present). So this is the reason why he probably only feels comfortable to express knowledge in this area. As for posting pictures, cryo-tek himself admitted that he wasn't any where as good with computers as he was with auto cascade design, and was intitially struggling to figure out how to do this. Also I have known cryo-tek for many years, and know that he is an extremely busy guy, so much so, that I am amazed that he even found the time to participate as much as he did in this forum. I'm sure if he didn't answer specific questions, it was not that he didn't want to, but more that he had a billion other things going on in the background.I,m the one who questioned cryo-tec knowledge, as he never posted anything but auto cascade designs, even that he was asked to post pictures or answerers to very specific questions.
To quote runmc:
I totally agree, and will say no more on this subjectI hope you guys have gotten this out of your systems. It would much better for all if you could take care of your disagreements in private. I am asking each of you to please put and end to this public bickering. There is a place here for all of us. I don't want to see any empty seats.
Michael St. Pierre
- Worked 15 years for Polycold Systems
- Now Self-Employed
- Manufacture Heat Load Controllers
- Also do contract service work on Polycold units
Side note: I usually don't respond to PM's or emails regarding the projects that I post in the forums. I feel it's much more fair to all, to answer questions within the forum topics themselves.
I think wdrzal, me and some other don't have a problem with cryo-tek at all we were just curious and ask him a lot of questions because we wan't to learn. If he doesn't have the time or the knowledge that's no problem. Some other members here made it a problem by saying we shouldn't bother him and were defending hem constantly, I don't know him but I think he is a grown man and can take care of himself. what happend is so exaggerated by some people, saying he is scared away without even knowing what happend etc. according to stephen this isn't what happend so.
Having a discussion is healthy and shouldn't be seen as scare tactics.
But it really creates a negative atmosphere around here(I come here less and less because of this), and I hope we can all act like grown ups and stop flaming and making stuff up. So we can all get allong with each other and get the good atmosphere back. Let's all have fun building awesome cooling systems and try to learn a lot in the process. Don't have bad feelings towards each other, it's bad for your blood pressure.
I'll give it one more try to expand my knowlegde by asking a question to mytekcontrols, not trying to scare him away(sorry I have to make a little bit fun about it)
@mytekcontrols: when cryo-tek was refilling the autocascade he had r14 and argon in the mixture, the argon couldn't condens according to a pt-chart but it gave a significant temperature drop. Do you know why this happens?
You are correct that the Argon will not condense at these temperatures and pressures. What it does do is to go into solution with the R-14. Or more correctly stated, some of the Argon gas goes into solution with the R-14 liquid. This creates a new refrigerant in a sense, something that when evaporated, will yield a temperature somewhere between R-14 and Argon. The colder, or more sub-cooled the R-14 is, the more Argon gas will be dissolved into it, and the colder will be the evaporated temperature. This also applys to almost any 2 or more refrigerants that are being sub-cooled within an auto cascade. Just to be clear... what I mean by sub-cooling is, when the conditions exist that are beyond that which is required to liquify a given refrigerant. So for instance if you have R-22 circulating in a part of a heat exchanger that is colder and higher in pressure than what is minimally required to 100% liquify the R-22, but not of the correct conditions to liquify R-23, you will see some of the R-23 go into solution with the sub-cooled R-22. Later when this is expanded downstream, you will achieve a temperature colder than R-22 alone.when cryo-tek was refilling the autocascade he had r14 and argon in the mixture, the argon couldn't condens according to a pt-chart but it gave a significant temperature drop. Do you know why this happens?
This is what really makes auto cascades superior to multi-compressor systems.
I hope that answers the question
Michael St. Pierre
- Worked 15 years for Polycold Systems
- Now Self-Employed
- Manufacture Heat Load Controllers
- Also do contract service work on Polycold units
Side note: I usually don't respond to PM's or emails regarding the projects that I post in the forums. I feel it's much more fair to all, to answer questions within the forum topics themselves.
wow, thats a nice answer. i always wanted to know exactly this! thank you for that explainationYou are correct that the Argon will not condense at these temperatures and pressures. What it does do is to go into solution with the R-14. Or more correctly stated, some of the Argon gas goes into solution with the R-14 liquid. This creates a new refrigerant in a sense, something that when evaporated, will yield a temperature somewhere between R-14 and Argon. The colder, or more sub-cooled the R-14 is, the more Argon gas will be dissolved into it, and the colder will be the evaporated temperature. This also applys to almost any 2 or more refrigerants that are being sub-cooled within an auto cascade. Just to be clear... what I mean by sub-cooling is, when the conditions exist that are beyond that which is required to liquify a given refrigerant. So for instance if you have R-22 circulating in a part of a heat exchanger that is colder and higher in pressure than what is minimally required to 100% liquify the R-22, but not of the correct conditions to liquify R-23, you will see some of the R-23 go into solution with the sub-cooled R-22. Later when this is expanded downstream, you will achieve a temperature colder than R-22 alone.
This is what really makes auto cascades superior to multi-compressor systems.
I hope that answers the question
Unknown_road, its the same with me. these endless OT debates make me so tired!
Can you answer me a question?
I hope that answers the question
How do you separate the liquid refrigerant and the gas (e.g. R22/R23)?
Do you build your own phase seperator (if yes, how?) or do you buy oil seperators and use them? I saw some Temprite 340 in Cyro-Teks pictures... so they work as a phase sep?
Next question:
Is a suction line heat exchanger really needed in front of the first phase separator?
Thank you VERY much!!
PS: Sorry for my crappy english...
Last edited by Moc; 01-07-2007 at 01:15 PM.
Moc your english is better then you think, we can understand you 90% of the time
Bring back natural selection! No more warning lables!
The one and Only MG Pony
thanks for that answer
mytekcontrols -
We welcome you to XtremeSystems.I along with many others here are glad to have you here along with your brain.
few goot links i found.
I wish we could of seen more of his stuff.
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...&postcount=282
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...&postcount=273
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...&postcount=248
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...&postcount=205
the guy did give us some stuff
but i guess i understand some one whos not that much into computers not post regularly
im sure he has his reasons.
s7e9h3n i sure would love to see some pics of this benching
Last edited by kayl; 01-08-2007 at 03:39 AM.
Ohhh...but you have....
2 Intels tested = 2 World records:
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...d.php?t=102900
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...postcount=2260
1 AMD tested = 1 Frozen A$$ mobo:
No matter what I did, my DFI would always shut off @ -73C in bios. Never ended up booting into windows. IIRC, this is @ ~1.6-1.7V on a non-bugged AMD X2....
Some more mobo fun:
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...d.php?t=102026
And YES, I'll test it on a x6800 Conroe when a special "care package" arrives for me this week.....
And YES, I'm hoping to run a dually setup in the near future as soon as I get a pair (or two) of "new
That autocascade of yours looks awesome s7e9h3n!
Can you give us some more details about the unit? I.e. compressor, condenser, final gas mix etc? I don't think they were ever posted in the build thread
I totally agree with ya!mytekcontrols -
We welcome you to XtremeSystems.
I'm rly one of the guys who are RLY happy that there is someone, who understands what he is doing @ autocascades, again!
@ mytekcontrols:
BIG THX to you for your "R14 + Argon" explanation!
Please let me know if you r willing to help some of us here @ XS @ building ur owns!
Thx a lot!
regards
-404
Moc asked:
Basically what you need is:How do you separate the liquid refrigerant and the gas (e.g. R22/R23)?
Do you build your own phase seperator (if yes, how?) or do you buy oil seperators and use them? I saw some Temprite 340 in Cyro-Teks pictures... so they work as a phase sep?
A small cylinder where the 2 phase (liquid/gas) mixture enters the side, preferably at an angle to impart a centrifugal effect (this last part aids in separation of the liquid from the gas), a gas exit out the top, and a liquid exit out the bottom. A Temprite will also work, assuming that it does not have a float valve for the liquid to exit (continuous flow), or if it does have a float, seal off the original liquid return and drill a hole centered in the bottom for your new return.
I have also seen people using old MAPP or Propane cylinders, however do be careful that you don't exceed the working pressure of these thin walled steel cylinders (remember you will be on the high pressure side of the system).
Adding steel or copper wool in the upper section will also improve the separation efficiency, as well as increasing the volume of the separator (the bigger the volume, the slower will be the velocity imparted, and the more readily the heavier liquid will tend to fall towards the bottom).
Moc also asked:
Yes it really helps decrease the temperature entering this first phase separator. Without it, you will be entering the phase separator at essentially room temperature. With it, and depending on your refrigerant mixture (and other factors), you can probably see a temperature of -25 to -30C. Since this first heat exchanger acts more like an economizer, you get this added cooling essentially for free, adding only a small amount of pressure drop in the process.Is a suction line heat exchanger really needed in front of the first phase separator?
I hope that answers your questions Moc.
Michael St. Pierre
- Worked 15 years for Polycold Systems
- Now Self-Employed
- Manufacture Heat Load Controllers
- Also do contract service work on Polycold units
Side note: I usually don't respond to PM's or emails regarding the projects that I post in the forums. I feel it's much more fair to all, to answer questions within the forum topics themselves.
No offens but it looks like an alfabits soup factery exploded! rly, r, THX??I totally agree with ya!
I'm rly one of the guys who are RLY happy that there is someone, who understands what he is doing @ autocascades, again!
@ mytekcontrols:
BIG THX to you for your "R14 + Argon" explanation!
Please let me know if you r willing to help some of us here @ XS @ building ur owns!
Thx a lot!
regards
-404
Some kind of new exchanger? I think it would be apt if one left the abreviations to the devices of which they belong to avoid confution. Thank you (Ps miss spell all you want, but for the love of mythology please use the word properly! So I and mycryocontrols can under stand you!)
Last edited by Xeon th MG Pony; 01-08-2007 at 10:05 AM.
Bring back natural selection! No more warning lables!
The one and Only MG Pony
It does! Thanks for your detailed answer!
Here are some schematics I drew starting with a very basic auto cascade, and then evolving into a system capable of -160C (or colder).
Basic Auto Cascade
Two Cascade System
Three Cascade System
Three Cascade w/Sub-Cooler
This last system will work well with a R-22, R-123, Ethane, R-23, R-14, Argon mixture. The Sub-Cooler allows for the Argon to really do its stuff, dissolving into the sub cooled R-14.
Sub-Cooler description:
As can be seen in the diagram above, the outlet of the Sub-Cooler feeds 2 cap tubes. The flow ratio is 1/3 vs. 2/3, with the 2/3 flow feeding the evaporator, and the smaller 1/3 flow cap tube feeding back into the subcooler. Since the Sub-Cooler is bypassed on the return (suction side) return from the evaporator, it will run at a colder temperature than the final cascade under loaded conditions. I know this probably looks strange to some, but believe me when I say it really does do the trick.
Remember when experimenting with the sizing of the Sub-Cooler to keep it on the small side as compared to the final cascade. The suction volume requirements are going to be very small.
And thank you everyone for welcoming me to this forum
Michael St. Pierre
- Worked 15 years for Polycold Systems
- Now Self-Employed
- Manufacture Heat Load Controllers
- Also do contract service work on Polycold units
Side note: I usually don't respond to PM's or emails regarding the projects that I post in the forums. I feel it's much more fair to all, to answer questions within the forum topics themselves.
it will run at a colder temperature than the final cascade under loaded conditions. I know this probably looks strange to some, but believe me when I say it really does do the trick.
Remember when experimenting with the sizing of the Sub-Cooler to keep it on the small side as compared to the final cascade. The suction volume requirements are going to be very small.
And thank you everyone for welcoming me to this forum
Do you recommend plate heatexchanger or coax? I think if the size of the suction side have to be smal plate hx are better?
Do you think instead of R22 propane would also go?
Next important question:
Why do you use R-123? It boils @ around 27°C... my room is always colder than that...
open up a topic or ask your questions here so everybody can participate and make the knowledge public! else everybody ask questions one by one when you post it here everybody can read or use the search later to look up the info.I totally agree with ya!
I'm rly one of the guys who are RLY happy that there is someone, who understands what he is doing @ autocascades, again!
@ mytekcontrols:
BIG THX to you for your "R14 + Argon" explanation!
Please let me know if you r willing to help some of us here @ XS @ building ur owns!
Thx a lot!
regards
-404
Thanks for the wonderful info mytek! Now, maybe people will begin to understand why Cryo-tek was such an asset to this community. Yes, there's quite a lot of information regarding autocascades to be found, but there are only a HANDFUL of people (such as yourself and Cryo-tek) who actually can APPLY this information. Get ready to be overwhelmed with questions
Plate Heat Exchangers are very efficient, but for small systems can be very expensive. When building a system with 1-2hp or less, tube-in-tube construction is inexpensive and still works quite well.Do you recommend plate heatexchanger or coax? I think if the size of the suction side have to be smal plate hx are better?
I don't recall the exact boiling points on these 2 refrigerants, but if my memory serves me correct, I do believe either one would do the trick. Just be carefull that your overall mixture doesn't get too heavy in flammable components for safety's sake. Also remember that a leak in the mid to upper stages could result in the flammable component being more pure, and separated from the non-flammable gases, there-by being explosive even when the mixture is not.Do you think instead of R22 propane would also go?
R-123 aids the heat exchange in the air-cooled condesnser, improves compressor cooling, and acts as a very good sponge for some of the lower boiling refrigerants to dissolve into, which yields some colder temperatures in the first stages when evaporated. Remember this is the key to making auto cascades really do their stuff.Why do you use R-123? It boils @ around 27°C... my room is always colder than that...
You can't always base your refrigerant selections strictly on pressure vs. temperature charts when it come to auto cascades, there is a bit of magic, or should I say intuition derived from lots of trial and error experiments in order to finalize the mix. Basically any time you mix more then 2 refrigerants together, it becomes nearly impossible to calculate through mathamatical means what is really going to happen. Although I did know one guy that had somehow figured it out, wrote a program, and then wouldn't share the techinique (too bad for everyone else).
Michael St. Pierre
- Worked 15 years for Polycold Systems
- Now Self-Employed
- Manufacture Heat Load Controllers
- Also do contract service work on Polycold units
Side note: I usually don't respond to PM's or emails regarding the projects that I post in the forums. I feel it's much more fair to all, to answer questions within the forum topics themselves.
OK ... I'm sorry .... didn't know that words like rly, thx and so on are that unintelligible for the most of you! I'm sorry!
@ Unknown_road:
I totally agree with you!
But do you think that really all questions are that important and interesting for all people here @ XS.org?
regards
-404
Ya the R14+argon is as I suspected, but a confirmations nice.
If you have a cooling question or concern feel free to contact me.
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