P5W - FSB Wall testing and conclusion

[eva2000]

Can you use the bios from the deluxe for the non deluxe? If not, can you mail asus and intel and ask if they want to do the same for the non deluxe ? I wanna try that board . Thanks

don't think you can use deluxe bios on non-deluxe they're different chipsets heh

the info has been passed onto intel and asus so it's waiting game

[lopri]

Eva, do you know what's the difference between "Auto","Standard", and "Turbo" in P5W-DH BIOS? For some reason my setup is most stable on "Turbo" and my board boots with tRD=5 no matter what FSB I'm on. (also regardless of Auto/Standard/Turbo)

[lopri]

Also, how is this board dividing PCI-E lanes between the 2 PEGs? Is there a performance penalty using the black PEG instead of the orange one? For single card setup, if the black PEG has full X16 bandwidth and there is little to no performance loss, I'd rather use the black slot for better cooling. Can't find any info on this.

Any input would be appreciated.

[eva2000]

interesting Standard for me tRD = 6.. so maybe Turbo is tRD = 5 ??? i've been trying to achive tRD = 5 at >400fsb no go though heh

No idea re: PCI-E slots heh

Now that i have P5W DH can do some more related testings and can confirm simonmaltby's findings .. yet again


Max FSB Results:

Now the fun part, finding the max fsb this P5W DH is capable of With FSB volts at 1.3v and MCH volts at 1.65v for now I managed being able to boot from bios at 9x442fsb = 3978Mhz at 1.54-1.55v.

I tried 9x444fsb but not able to boot up. Whether that's a fsb limit of cpu/vcore/cooling limited not sure - will investigate later

9X442fsb = 3978Mhz

CPUZ Validation:
http://valid.x86-secret.com/show_oc.php?id=114677

click on image for full screenie


Next I'd drop the cpu multiplier using Crystalmarkcpuid for 8x and see how high I can take the fsb still with MCH volts at 1.65v.

To test max fsb, I decided to boot into windows from bios at 9x440fsb = 3960mhz at 1.575v vcore bios (1.54-1.57v windows load-idle) and then using Crystalmarkcpuid to drop from 9x to 8x cpu multiplier for tests.

I used only Systool dual 32M PI (cpu test) and Super Pi v1.50 single and dual 32M tests to test max fsb.

Bios Settings:

vdimm = 2.2v
vFSB = 1.3v
vMCH = 1.65v
vICH = AUTO
Performance mode = AUTO
Hyperpath3 = Disabled

@8x440fsb = 3522mhz 1:1 memory @440mhz 4-4-4-12 4
I managed to pass single 32M Super Pi but one core failed dual 32M Super Pi with vMCH of 1.65v.

Super Pi v1.50
single 32M = 14min 14.703s
dual 32M = core 1 failed at 17th iteration

Increased vMCH to 1.75v in bios and 8x440fsb dual 32M Super Pi completed with no problems.

click image to see full screenshot


How far can we take fsb with vMCH 1.75v ? Seems 447fsb was only good enough for single 32M Super Pi, as dual 32M failed. So dropped back to 445fsb which passed fine.

@8x447fsb = 3576mhz 1:1 memory @447mhz 4-4-4-12 4
I managed to pass single 32M Super Pi but one core failed dual 32M Super Pi at 19th iteration on core #2 with vMCH of 1.75v.

Super Pi v1.50
single 32M = 14min 04.844s
dual 32M = core 2 failed at 19th iteration

@8x445fsb = 3561mhz 1:1 memory @445mhz 4-4-4-12 4

Super Pi v1.50
single 32M = 14min 09.438s
dual 32M = 15min 48.875s / 15min 46.640s



Summary of max FSB tests:

Right now it looks like for stock heatpipe cooling on MCH/NB:

vMCH = max fsb
1.65v = ~438fsb
1,75v = ~445fsb
1.85v = not tested yet

I guess the default chipset latencies are very tight and the factor of adequate MCH/NB cooling come into play. FCG's FSB scaling report at http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...d.php?t=105940 refers to better cooled MCH with MCH volt modded AFAIK. Also, I have yet to test simonmaltby's fsb scaling frequency tests in relation to memory timing options for tRD and tRFC http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...d.php?t=111400.

Analysis of P5W DH memory 4:5 and 2:3 dividers

I've been messing around with 4:5 and 2:3 dividers are lower FSB clocks and checking memset to see what values are being set since i'd having issues in memtest86+ v1.65 test #7 errors in high fsb 4:5 mode.

In 2:3 I maxed out my memory @542mhz 4-4-4-12 at 2.4v which showed the following memset timing values



tRFC = 42
tRD = 6
Write to Precharge Cmd = 13
Write to Read Cmd = 10
Read-Write Turnaround CLKs = 8
Write-Read Turnaround CLKs = 6
tRTP = 5

Now in 4:5 mode the only changes in memset are for:

tRFC = 35
Write to Precharge Cmd = 12

As you see it's tighter than at 2:3 set memset timings. So I booted into windows from bios at 9x378fsb 4:5 with memory at 472.5mhz 4-4-4-12 at 2.3v and used clockgen to clock up incrementally to test the max FSB:MEM clocks and find out how loosening these memset options will effect max 4:5 FSB:MEM clocks.

Results:
Using Systool dual 32M PI (cpu test), I managed to use Clockgen to raise FSB from 378fsb to 394fsb (493mhz 4-4-4-12 for memory) before it started to fail/error out. This was still with default memset timings where tRD = 6. I then raised tRD from 6 to 7, and easily managed to raise FSB from 394fsb to 400fsb (500mhz 4-4-4-12 for memory) and pass the tests without errors!

With tRD = 7, i could even tighten tRFC from 35 down to 20 with no problems.

@3600Mhz - 9x400fsb 4:5 500mhz 4-4-4-8 at 2.3v (more vdimm allows to handle tigher tRFC values but tRD needed 7)


So it does seem for 4:5 divider the culprit maybe tRD = 6. Now some folks managed to get high 4:5 clocks on P5W DH and I suspect this due to higher voltages or voltage mods on vdimm and vMCH as these two voltages help the memory/MCH handle the tight tRD value of 6 apparently. With enough voltage you could clock the memory higher for 4:5 ratio

Seems to me that for 975x chipset, both the max FSB limits and inability to handle high fsb in 4:5 and 2:3 dividers all comes down to tRD being too tight at 6. How far you can take your FSB and clocks in async divider mode, depend on:

1. MCH/NB quality and latencies
2. MCH/NB cooling - better MCH/NB cooling = higher FSB and higher memory clocks
3. MCH Voltage
4. Memory modules used - if the memory can handle tRD = 6 well then it will clock higher, allowing high FSB
5. vDIMM - memory voltage helps memory handle tighter advance timings, thus higher max FSB

Further proof, i upped vdimm to 2.4v with vMCH still at 1.65v and booted into windows at 9x390fsb 4:5 487mhz 4-4-4-8. Using memset loosened timings to match that of default 2:3 divider tRFC = 42 and Write to Precharge Cmd = 13 but loosened tRD from 6 to 7. Managed to clock memory right up to 540mhz 4-4-4-8 at 2.4v without problems for single 32M and 538mhz 4-4-4-8 for dual 32M.

Single 32M @540mhz 4-4-4-8 at 2.4v


Dual 32M @538mhz 4-4-4-8 at 2.4v


And now tightening the rest of memset timings while tRD = 7



Decide to push my E6600 a bit harder with stock heatpipe MCH/NB heatsink still, i bumped vcore and vMCH in bios to 1.675v (1.64-1.65v windows) and 1.85v respectively and managed to pull off

Max cpu validation @4261mhz - 9x473fsb
1M @4115mhz - 9x457fsb
32M @4023mhz - 9x447fsb








Radiical Chipset Waterblock Installation

Time has come to remove stock heatpipe MCH/NB heatsink and replace it with Radiical.com.au chipset waterblock

First, I cut a piece of sticky back insulation foam horizontally to a paper near paper thin height and stuck it on the 2 corners of MCH green PCB near the hooks. Just added precaution in case i crush the MCH chipset core heh. Second, I put some Microcool silver mosfet heatsinks on the mosfets near the cpu socket.



Then mounted the Radiical chipset waterblock.



Will start testing for max FSB now.. wish me luck

[lopri]

I've never paid attention to tRD but apparently it plays a role with FSB frequency? But my board boots at same tRD(=5) all the time with an E6400. I tried to loosen it but it fails Super PI. I have an E6700 but I never bothered to look at the Memset values. I will check it out later.

I've just did SP 32M with tRD=5 @425FSB with the E6400. (Just for stability testing) Vcore=1.55, Vmch=1.65, Vdimm=2.4. I can only go higher than 425FSB by giving up 1:1, or running memory slower than FSB. (~440FSB-ish)

[eva2000]

what memory you using ? sounds like tRD =5 only some memory can handle it and not all.. you much have memory that can handle tight timings like tRD = 5

[lopri]

It's just a plain D9 Team Xtreem DDR2-667 which tops out @DDR2-1066. If anything the difference might be from the CPU? (2MB vs 4MB)

[eva2000]

interesting... i'll have a play with Turbo a bit later..testing Standard performance mode right now

[Pjoeloe]

don't think you can use deluxe bios on non-deluxe they're different chipsets heh
the info has been passed onto intel and asus so it's waiting game

Well, it`s been a time ago since you passed the mail to Asus, did they forget this ? ( interesting that trd story ..I didn`t know that )

[Nosfer@tu]

Anny updates?

[Falkentyne]

Eva, do you know what's the difference between "Auto","Standard", and "Turbo" in P5W-DH BIOS? For some reason my setup is most stable on "Turbo" and my board boots with tRD=5 no matter what FSB I'm on. (also regardless of Auto/Standard/Turbo)

I tried "Turbo" once, and although the computer worked, it took 3x as long to load windows, and then when I checked device manager, one of the IDE channels was in PIO mode-.- It had to be the C: drive on the Jmicron controller, but yet above that "device", it showed the exact same drive in UDMA 5.... I have 3 HD's, two on SATA, one on the Jmicron, both SATA's appeared on UDMA 5 (primary IDE channel) , and the Jmicron appeared on also UDMA5, but below that it was on "PIO mode" @_@

I rebooted and set it to Standard and it was back on UDMA 5....go figure.

[charlie]

great conclusions... will try it.

[don_vercetti]

Yeah, followed into this from another thread, looking forward to trying out loosen TRD tonight.

I'm quite annoyed asus STILL hasn't let us have all the alpha timings in the BIOS yet on p5w dh. Why does the cheaper p5b dlx get it, and we don't?

[simonmaltby]

I am now confident that this has been proven now...

I have just changed my mobo to the P5W64 WS pro and the latest bios lets you set more memory options. Setting trd to 7 in the bios makes the same kit that was fsb limited (380mhz) on the P5WDH stable at 445Mhz or the p5w64

I am guessing here but think that Asus dont have enough bios memory on the P5WDH to add these settings, this could be due to the DH bits like EZRaid.

[monkeyBite]

So it does seem for 4:5 divider the culprit maybe tRD = 6. Now some folks managed to get high 4:5 clocks on P5W DH and I suspect this due to higher voltages or voltage mods on vdimm and vMCH as these two voltages help the memory/MCH handle the tight tRD value of 6 apparently. With enough voltage you could clock the memory higher for 4:5 ratio

I've gotten a lot of great information from you guys and this thread, so thanks for that

I have found that with my setup (see sig) I have to loosen TRD to 8 to get up to 400FSB.

Since I can't adjust it in the BIOS, I am booting at 385 x 9, and then raising clock speeds from there with SysTool towards and over 400. I'm at 4:5 right now, so with the 400FSB, my ram is running 1000mhz @ 5-5-5-15, trfc 42, trd 8. 7 isn't really stable @ 400 x 9, but 8 seems to do the trick. Regardless, I am still having trouble getting stable at anything over 400. I've tried 1:1 divider as well, but I think that my NB is getting too hot with the higher FSB speeds, and I know that these corsair chips can handle this speed (TWIN2X2048-8500C5).

Any suggestions on how I might push ahead a bit further (apart from NB cooling, which I'm getting around to)?

vCore: 1.42
vDimm: 2.2
FSB Term: 1.4
vMCH: 1.65

I am pretty near ecstatic with my 3.6ghz results on this Conroe, as this is my first real overclock, but I know I can get more out of it....

http://valid.x86-secret.com/show_oc?id=134266

[BAR*B*Q]

very interesting findings. cheers to the originator and eva2000 his sharing the very few experiences. here are mine...

max fsb 32 M @ following setting (x7 multi and 1:1 divider)

-BeQuiet 600W
-Asus P5WDH (67, vmch mod)
-E6300 (626A)
-G.Skill HZ (D9 631)

without tweaking subtimings 450 mhz fsb was easy here. booting and 32 M as well. booting up to 460 mhz is possible too. but not 32M stable though.

anything above 450 mhz 1:1 was not stable (32M). first i thought cpu is limitating but increasing vcore gave no improvement. messing with vmch as well. even up to 2,1 v. so i made myself finding this thread...

here is how i passed following clocks. in between crucial changes to reach next clock...

• 450 mhz // 4-4-3-4 / 28-6 // 1,4 / ~ 1,86
  
  tweaking subs and raising vcore ->
  
  
• 455 mhz // 4-4-3-5 / 42-7 // 1,5625 / ~ 1,86
  
  raising vmch ->
  
  
• 460 mhz // 4-4-3-5 / 42-7 // 1,6 / ~ 1,99
  
  relaxing tRD again ->
  
  
• 465 mhz (boot @ 460) // 4-4-3-5 / 42-8 // 1,6125 / ~ 1,99

// tCL-tRTC-tRP-tRAS / tRFC-tRD // vcore (set in bios) / vmch (read with vmeter)

summering a few of my rookie experiences... comments required !

-increasing vmch was not usefull until lowering tRFC/tRD @ 460 mhz !
-booting cold with high vmch allways fails. also after a crashed setting.
->lower voltage @ lower temps are not only possible but duty ?
-verifying 465 mhz result failed. got an early freeze two times @ 32 M

edit : just cant reach my max fsb anymore allways get a freeze after 1 loop @ 32 M

[Haltech]

So how hard would it be for someone to remove some crap out of the bios for us Xtreme OC'rs to make room for more memory timings? I know there are several people here who personally know engineers at Asus or even can do it at their house. How about giving it a whirl?