difference BIP3vs BIX3 with low CFM fans.

[creidiki]

Ofcourse you have to rethink the FPI and fin design if you made the Cooltek or GTS 50% thicker, but that is not the point here

It is that the PA is far larger than it's competitors and therefore it's better... When it comes to rads the size of is quite a huge factor regarding it's performence. Ofcouse design matters, but size is, if not, more important...

Could you please explain further your statement below:
Cooltek/MCR = 12fpi, BIX (high cfm rad) 12fpi and nearly as thick as PA. So basically, a Cooltek/MCR as thick as a PA = HE, BIX.

According to Hardwareluxxx the Cooltek is 34mm thick and the PA 60mm thick..
/Thomas

No, not really.

PA is under 10fpi, so it *HAS* to be bigger or it woudlnt perform very well.

In the same way, 12fpi rads designed for low-cfm cant very thick, or they pose too much air resistance, and you end with a BIX (which is 12fpi, and about as thick as a PA) which isnt suitable for low-cfm.

And the GT is 30fpi, so that even more xtreme in that sense.

So no, theyre directly comparable. Each company made their own choices viz. fpi and that decides how thick the radiator could be, and vice-versa. And each company made their own choices viz how much extra stuff they wanted on their rads - inbuilt shrouds, bleed valves, fan spacing.

Of course the PA is going to be bigger and heavyer, its fpi is extremely low so it has to be longer and have a thicker armature or you can twist it with your hands, plus its got a 5mm inbuilt shroud.

The GT is the other extreme, its designed to be extremely thin, and has no inbuilt shroud so its obviously going to be very light.

Just because other companies dont include the same features you cant say theyre not directrly comparable, thats like saying you cant directly compare an A64 and a Conroe because one has OoO read commands and one doesent.

[Radical_53]

@thomas: The HTF3-X is also ~2.1kg and also 60mm thick. Doesn't perform as well, so that's not the point where all the performance comes from.
Also, as creidiki stated before, it's the manufacturers choice how big they're making it in the end. Also, it's their choice to include things like a shroud, which no one else does.

[Marci]

The simple fact is, it's a comparison of the AVAILABLE triple radiators out there. Regardless of spec and price, they are all triple radiators that are commonly chosen between amongst the watercooling communities.

Now they have a performance ranking order.

Yes, some of the reasons why one outperforms another are obvious. Others are not. The overall size has no bearing on the flow restriction figures for instance... if anything, they'd have the OPPOSITE effect. Weight is irrelevant. Different materials weigh more than other materials. Our sidewalls are made of some fairly weighty stuff, and this has no bearing on performance whatsoever.

The design goal for the PA Series was to achieve AS MUCH PERFORMANCE AS POSSIBLE out of every bit of airflow provided, and liquid flow provided - an exercise in efficiency more than anything else... which as a side result produced a rad that excelled at all airflows... but the design and specification was necessary to match the ridiculously low airflows, and maintain the liquid flows that folks choose to use/need in watercooling today to give them the best possible performance whilst adhering to a standard 120mm fan-based format. It was designed for a specific purpose. The fact that others chose not to design for that purpose isn't our concern really...

The rad was also designed to be aimed at the market who were purchasing the StormG4 block in their droves, because regardless of cost, it was the best performer (and still is in many ppl's opinions)... hence the designer of that block came up with the ALMOST perfect rad that you see available now as the PA series (heh - we made sure we kept an ace of his up our sleeves in reserve should the time come) to match the same criteria used when designing that block. That same designer has also said that the DDC 18w version with modded top is the perfect pump for our application... we now have the almost Utopian Watercooling Kit where efficiency and performance blend perfectly, and thus the obvious result is either more performance than the rest assuming same airflow, or same performance as the rest but using less airflow thus less noise - meets the need of the silent and performance markets. Keeping it out of the "easy to mount / locate, cheap as chips" market just makes it that bit more desirable for those who have money to spend...

One could make the statement that when it comes to performance and noise, our radiators match the needs more than anyone elses does. No-one else went to the extremes required to support the ultra low airflow crowd, whilst still providing them with the maximum performance that could possibly be achieved.

The beleif that rads needed to be thinner to be less restrictive to airflow, which was the basis for many design decisions with competitors, can now be completely thrown out of the window... as it's now a myth. At the same FPI, it's a fact... but when the FPI is matched to the depth, the combined effect is bordering on perfection when it comes to % efficiency of the radiator in all aspects of performance.

Hell, the only reason G1/4" is used on all the other rads is as a result of a popularity contest, not the common sense that states larger is better for performance with bugger all cost difference particularly... why exactly?? I remember when all rads had soldered on pipe fittings... they weren't removeable and changeable... Only reason G1/4" fittings are popular everywhere now is because so many companies use it, despite the fact that should those companies have chosen G3/8", that would now be the popular fitting everyone was searching for and everyone would be seeing better performance, and thus G3/8" would be as widely available as G1/4" currently is. As a company, all we've ever wanted to do was create the best PERFORMING gear, and wave the flag high for UK Manufacturers in this scene... of which there are now none but us (don't go touting up names - they all buy their stuff from China and rebadge it before ya even start when it comes to anything affecting performance rather than aesthetics). Couldn't give a toss about looks, price etc. Performance rules. The same withstands for everything we've ever undertaken. If the others want to take on the same objective, they they are free to do so - no-one is stopping them other than their own objectives... which may not be the same as ours and thus the product differences you see before you. Suffice to say, performance could still be improved, but at the moment it would involve added cost that we aren't ready to implement at the moment. To put out yer full hand just marks the end of your game... we don't want to make millions and achieve world domination... with our rads widely available everywhere. We like the l'il bit of exclusivity that there is to a TC Rad...

When it comes to convenience of installation, and consumed space, or for some cost (dependant upon location) ours may not match those needs. So it ultimately depends for what reason you are buying watercooling... if you want the quietest possible with the best performance possible, buy ours. If you don't, then buy someone elses as otherwise you're buying ours purely to willywave with. However, we can't determine nor influence a customers reason to buy. We can only state facts, and those facts can only be performance figures. Anything else is assumption.

With your arguments, you cannot compare ANYTHING. All CPU Waterblocks share differing dimensions internally and externally, different weights, as do most HSFs, as does ANYTHING to do with watercooling.

A CPU Waterblock is still a CPU Waterblock, and therefore subject to comparison against other blocks and ranked by performance, regardless of size etc. Same goes for heatsinks...

A triple radiator is still a triple radiator...

A Ferrari and a Noble are both supercars...

A CBR1000 and an R1 are both superbikes...

All share different weights and dimensions, all are pitted head to head frequently...


Cor... I've got blisters on me fingers...!! (think I'm done now... that Edit button can get addictive)

[voigts]

I'll say it is refreshing to see someone (Marci and Thermochill) take pride in their work. I get so sick of cheap chinese crap in every corner of every store. You are making me more and more get the itch to go ahead and hit the pa120.3 order button.

[Marci]

To summarise... IIRC, the way it all came up before design even began was... What are the two most asked questions AFTER someone's bought a WC Kit...??

Generally -

1) How do I get it quieter without it hurting my temps
2) How do I get better temps without hurting my ears

We built something that effectively formed an answer to both. "Replace current rad and fans with..."

[creidiki]

... hence the designer of that block came up with the ALMOST perfect rad that you see available now as the PA series (heh - we made sure we kept an ace of his up our sleeves in reserve should the time come)

*uses super-sikrit ninja skillz to stealzors*

[Thomas FJ]

@thomas: The HTF3-X is also ~2.1kg and also 60mm thick. Doesn't perform as well, so that's not the point where all the performance comes from.
Also, as creidiki stated before, it's the manufacturers choice how big they're making it in the end. Also, it's their choice to include things like a shroud, which no one else does.

The HTF3 is an "old school" rad and is not from the new generation of rads as PA, GTS and Cooltek, and therefore it doesn't perform that well...

Just because other companies dont include the same features you cant say theyre not directrly comparable, thats like saying you cant directly compare an A64 and a Conroe because one has OoO read commands and one doesent.

This is NOT an attack on they way the PA is build and how TC have chosen to build it, but a comment to WHY it is better...
The review and the quotes doesn't state anything about the PA is twice as thick as some of the others, which is what I'm trying to say...

Bottom linie:
The PA is best, but comes with a down side, the larger size.
/Thomas

[Marci]

Well, technically it does mention it in the review, if you've read it... rather than the figures taken from the review that were posted in this thread - in the 1st line of the PA's section...

“The PA is a radiator of superlatives. It’s bigger, stronger and more powerful than all other contendants, but also more expensive, if you take the price for the (very useful) accessoires and the shipping from the UK into account. But what do you get for your money? As you take it out of the package, you can feel that this is something special in your hands. With much love to useful details, completely manufactured in England, comes a matte black, 2.1kg heavy radiator seeking for equivalents. It has mounting holes for fans on both sides... *snip* ...Also, the huge size is a problem here and there if someone has to fit a PA into a rather small case. The amount of space needed to make it work efficiently is significantly larger than of many other radiators, as there should be some clearance left to other components to provide proper function.

Remember, all I've posted here is figures from the review... if you want the review in it's entirety, that's all in German. The English Translation of the Thermochill bit is on the PA120's page at www.thermochill.com/pa1203.php as is the link to the German source material.

[tommrussell]

nice speech Marci , puts things in perspective thanks for the great read

now go and put something on those burns hehehe

[voigts]

Well marci you proved your point and talked me into it. I ordered a PA120.3 today from Dangerden. I was especially motivated by the 20% coupon PAGLAN06 (OC forums cyberdeals) which saved me $25. $105.88 US shipped is a good deal.

[septim]

lucky you man, early congrats on the purchase...
now to find g3/8 metal fittings to go on that, or stick with the plastic fittings
that they come with

[Radical_53]

@thomas: It'a condenser style, yes. But the company believes in that and put a new model on the market. The HTSF is just a thinner version of its predecessor, still those two do work quite well. I thought they'd be way off, yet they weren't.

To comment to the review, I actually don't *know* why exactly the TC is better. All I can see is that they did take care of every little detail that might be interesting performance-wise. Like the 3/8" fittings, no paint / powder coat on the fins and so on. Technically, the thickness does make sense to me considering the low FPI count. As you do need some "area" for the heat transfer, you'll have to get it from somewhere. Fin design adds to that, as they're not just straight as many other competitors use it.

[Cathar]

I really have to thank Marci and Thermochill. As the designer and pre-production tester for the PA120 radiators, TC gave me carte-blanche to fiddle with the design parameters to the limits of manufacturing practicality, and TC trusted me to push the PA design in a way to maximise its performance, and only its performance. For my part I focused primarily on the design of the core finned section itself, and left the built-in shroud, bracing, and end-tank design in the hands of TC. In short, the design goal was to maximise performance in a 120.x form factor.

Of course we all kept in mind that the radiator had to fit within a case, so the whole thing couldn't be much thicker than about 60mm, to allow for at least singular 38mm fans to be fitted and have the overall depth with fan be no more than 10cm (4") such that while it would be largish in-case, (for a PA120.1) it should never obstruct anything in any well designed midi-ATX case or any larger case.

The reason for the PA's dimensions is wholly focused around performance concerns. It's easy to assume that it performs better than other radiator just because it's thicker and heavier, but thickness is but only one of a multitude of parameters to balance out. When you change thickness, you're actually altering at least 4 dependent variables, 2 of which work against you as you increase thickness.

While it's easy to sit back and criticise the PA's thickness based upon a whole host of other cloned radiators, the thing is that the PA is the only purpose-built radiator on the market that steps outside of the box, breaks the clone mould, and hangs it all out for maximum performance with minimal noise. It is merely an additional product in the marketplace for those who want a choice other than buying one of a host of similarly sized, similarly performing radiator clones.

No one's twisting anyone's arm to buy the things, but the important thing to keep in mind is that at least the choice is there, and watercooling users do have the choice to buy a product that is a no-compromises performing radiator product that is purposely designed for their low-noise water-cooling needs. When TC and I were bandying the design about, the point that always stuck in my head was posts on water-cooling forums complaining about radiator fan noise, about people dropping out of water-cooling because of it, and people buying these monster 100cfm 38mm fan units just to get acceptable radiator performance.

We refused to believe that enough had been done to explore the limits of what was truly possible in the slow-slim-line-fan, low-noise environment that water-coolers seemed to be searching for. It just so happens that in designing a radiator for that need that we ended up designing a radiator that outperforms everything else right up to those large ear-bleeding monster fan units, which in my mind was outside of the design goals and acceptable noise levels, but we were happy to have achieved such nonetheless.

Oh, and in case anything thinks that the above is said for purposes of profit. I have to date not received any monetary payment from TC, nor do I ever expect to do so, and this suits me just fine. I have a number of prototype TC radiator units here, and that is about the extent of it. I offered my time and efforts purely to advance PC radiator design beyond the rut that it seemed to be stuck in and am really just thrilled that in TC that I had a willing manufacturer to make the dream a reality.

[SiGfever]

I am a thirty year HVAC technician and I have seen my share of evaporators, condensers and radiators. When I opened the box and took the ThermoChill out I was impressed with the weight and the construction detail. The time and thought put into these Titans of the Cooling World was very obvious.

Upon further inspection and comparison with a BIPro II I realized that this WAS the pinnacle of perfection. The G3/8 BSPP fittings were further proof of flow consideration without regard to expense. If you can't get the water in and out easily performance will suffer.

After hooking up the rad with 7/16"id Tygon tubing and bleeding the system I was amazed at how low I could under volt my Yate Loons without sacrificing performance. This has made for a very quiet and efficient system that still impresses me.

So my hat is off to Marci and Cathar for giving us a rad that all other manufactures will aspire to.

A toast to you mates.....

[tommrussell]

I am a thirty year HVAC technician and I have seen my share of evaporators, condensers and radiators. When I opened the box and took the ThermoChill out I was impressed with the weight and the construction detail. The time and thought put into these Titans of the Cooling World was very obvious.

Upon further inspection and comparison with a BIPro II I realized that this WAS the pinnacle of perfection. The G3/8 BSPP fittings were further proof of flow consideration without regard to expense. If you can't get the water in and out easily performance will suffer.

After hooking up the rad with 7/16"id Tygon tubing and bleeding the system I was amazed at how low I could under volt my Yate Loons without sacrificing performance. This has made for a very quiet and efficient system that still impresses me.

So my hat is off to Marci and Cathar for giving us a rad that all other manufactures will aspire to.

A toast to you mates.....

first off i hope cathar is feeling better

and second QFT

i,m in the auto repair industry and the pa series is far and away a better rad than in most of the autos i repair it is truley a beast

[Radical_53]

It truely is. Maybe the part that I like most about it is attention to detail. Every little bit was looked at and optimized to provide the best function possible. You normally don't see that on standard production, mostly on limited editions only. Kudos for that!

[Marci]

I really have to thank Marci and Thermochill.

No need to thank me d00d... cos it's all comin straight back at ya...! We'd have been lost and just another of the clones if you hadn't proposed the foundations of the PA160 back on ProC all that time ago... s'all been you since then, and the next (& possibly final?) step forward from the PA120 series is still your baby.

I just look forward to the day when I can get over to Aus (pref. permanently), stage you a 2 day MusicFestival, and watch you disappear into the distance as I attempt to race you round the track of yer choosing!!

One day...

[nealh]

Wow...I own a PA160 but I want a PA120.2 or 120.3 and G7..now more than never. Marci and Cathar you guys are awesome...the WC community is lucky to have you on our side

I just need a new case and skilles to modd for placement of 120.3 rad...

I spent $90 on PA160..$110 or so for 120.3...no big deal

Hell with what most waste on new fans and crap the extra $50-60 on a PA120.3(or less for a PA120.2) is nothing....

If I understood more and had not stuck to internal solution for my P180(I was afraid to try and cut the top of the case because of a lack of skills)..I would not hesitate getting a 120.3(I think you could fit it in the top with Panaflo 120x38 L1A or better yet 3 YL fans)...

Just have real doubts on my skills to cut out holes for it properly...

not to mention my wife who last night again said..WCing was a big waste of money..right..you gained nothing...

[creidiki]

I want a case that can have 2 front-mounted PA160s =P

Then I'll ge someone *cough*marci*cough* to make me shrouds for 140mm fans, and run 2 loops. And get no real advantage over my current loop, but itll be cool ^_^

[Marci]

If you were gonna head down that route, I'd do the endtanks reprofiled so that the barb came out the end, pointing at the rad next door... would need to know whether mounting with barbs top and bottom or barbs either side... and then a one-piece shroud to cover the pair of `em.

2x PA160 with 1x ^^ on each ^ : CPU - 15.8 GPU - 15.1
PA120.3 with 3x ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ : CPU - 15 GPU - 15

Meh - lose a degree on the CPU, but lose a fan in the process... but that's using TECs with elevated heatload... on a non-tec'd setup I doubt you'd notice any performance difference at all... but the loss of a fan either way you look at it is less noise...

(Hmmm... in effect making one large dualpass rad out of two single pass rads... interesting... that is of course assuming you're using em on same loop in series... which I doubt you will be, so ignore ALL my suggestions above!)

[Marci]

And MountainMods will do you a custom UFO to accomodate the rads... with the proper squared mounting holes for the entire PA160 frontal surface...

Only tricky part would be grills for em to protect fin damage...

[creidiki]

Yup, 2 separate loops would be the idea... DDC-Pro for the GPU/NB loop prolly, Storm + RD-30 @ 15v on the CPU (G7 if I'm lucky, heh).

With the small digital sensors in the TBan BigNG I could control each loop's fan independently.

As for grills, as a 10yr heavy smoker it would have to be those thin-mesh metal grill air filters, or the rads will be clogged inside 2 weeks

Ah well, I'm forward-planning 6 months in the future already, I oughta stop doing that

In any case, I'd want it done on the upcoming horizon series of UFOs.

Oh and I'd want to find out if push or pull is better with 140mm fans on a PA160 before getting the case made, obv