Heavy Discussions area(thermo dynamics etc)

[bowman1964]

ok guys here we go....

A play area to discussion all types of phase change related topics in the open ,sometimes we want to get into a heavy discussion on side topics and without taking a good thread and looding it up with some of the heavyer brain thinking thoughts.


but i will start this off with the prometisa temp controller,i started in a thread saying how far off thwe controler can get off..I believe.

[bowman1964]

well marci posted this great link to the pdf file on the carel controller used in the mach I,thanks marci

link to marci pdf
i pulled the model off of a mach 1 at lunch it was 1Z32Z00000
so it is specing a ntc temp probe to be used with the unit.
i will tonight check the prom ohm reading against a true ntc thermo coupling i have and see how close the OHM resistance is off by.

i did a quick check a prom will read 12.6k ohm @19.4c / 66.8f

but i will did a good check tonight.
i have the ohms on a mach II but that is later i guess.


i hope everyone will enjoy this thread.we can discuss almost any phase change related odd topic untill we are tierd of typing...LOL

[Gary Lloyd]

Keep in mind that I have never seen a prommie, so I judge it by what has been reported here and in other online forums.

There is a lot to like about the basic system, but also a lot to dislike. I like a simple control system. If a system has bells and whistles, they should serve a function. Aside from the very flawed temperature sensor, I'm not fond of the things it is controlling, such as fan speed and heaters. Maybe I can be convinced of the need to control these things, but this remains to be seen.

[Svenn]

Kind of a newb question, but how do you power a prom off a seperate psu?

[bowman1964]

well the mach I has a pretty simple controller.which i like personaly.
the mach II is a nightmare of a ciruit board if you have a problem,
i like it plain a simple sometimes...

[bowman1964]

Originally posted by Svenn
Kind of a newb question, but how do you power a prom off a seperate psu?

on a mach I
easy,just connect the prom molex connector to a power supply and make sure the prom is plugged into the wall.then start the power supply....wamm you got cooling goodness....

[sharp]

Hi,so this controller is heart of promy it is alsoo controlling fans,shut down and other stuff or just displaying temperatures?
Is temp diode on promy flexible?

[Svenn]

Originally posted by bowman1964
on a mach I
easy,just connect the prom molex connector to a power supply and make sure the prom is plugged into the wall.then start the power supply....wamm you got cooling goodness....

That's what I thought.... thanks. About the controller... I've never really messed with it... so any settings worth changing if I haven't modded it?

[bowman1964]

Originally posted by sharp
Hi,so this controller is heart of promy it is alsoo controlling fans,shut down and other stuff or just displaying temperatures?
Is temp diode on promy flexible?

first welcome aboard.to the forum


well yes it does it all,the thermistor is not flexable it is epoxed to the side of the cooling evaperator...

[bowman1964]

Originally posted by Svenn
That's what I thought.... thanks. About the controller... I've never really messed with it... so any settings worth changing if I haven't modded it?

well that one i cannt help you with,as i havent tried to play with the controller alot,but i am sure one of the guys in here knows some good tricks

[sharp]

Thanks for welcome,Bowman

So finding the controller with capability of reading about -70c would be a great shot for home made direct die?

[bowman1964]

Originally posted by sharp
Thanks for welcome,Bowman

So finding the controller with capability of reading about -70c would be a great shot for home made direct die?

well thats what i did a coulpe of times,i got simpson temp controllers and got them to work.just besure the unit can read that low and if it does it will surely use a j type thermocoulping at least.

[Marci]

Gary... the MachI controller (IR32Z) - a run down of what (or ALL) it does.... basically not a lot!!

You set 4 points.

1 - Temperature at which PC Powers up (-33 default)
2 - Temperature Fans slow down to silent running
3 - Temperature Fans speed up due to high temp
4 - Temperature at which it turns off if it gets too hot

Thats yer lot. All are adjustable... not straightforward to program as they're all based on differences, so every setting is in proportion to the other....

I Think from what I recall (on a MkII now so don't have the MkI to reference) you set the switch off temp... -20 degrees.

You set the boot temp as a difference from this, usually 13. -20 - 13 = -33

You then set a higher point where the fans speed up, -28 I think, and the low point for when they slow down is set as a difference from that... so if u set this to 12 then it'll be -28 - 12 = -40, so fans slow to silent at -40.

That's it's parameters in a nutshell, st1, st2, p1, p2.

Other parameters are all left to standard factory default for that controller I beleive, other than sensor calibrations. The -50 alarm and -60 shutdown stuff are all the standard settings for this controller if u bought one separately (I think!)

I'm still hunting for who makes the PCB for the MkII as I'm sure Chip-con don't make it themselves... it'll be an OEM of some form...

So, in summary, EVERY factor is dependant purely on the calibration of the temperature sensor.

In theory according to the manual, taking an accurate measurement then setting the offset (Paramter P14) SHOULD be all that is required to get the Promi more accurate. Not having one here I can't test this...

Now, If you have DTC Probes hooked up to it instead of the stock probes, you get extra control over a few parameters that may be useful...

1 - Compensation Coefficient - C4
2 - Ambient Compensation of 2nd Probe - C19

So praps hooking up a DTC Probe may be worth a try (whatever one of those is and whatever it does - I'm assuming it's a thermal probe of some sort)

C13 is also a useful parameter.
Setting to 0 : 4 - 20mA probe (K T/c)
Setting to 1 : 0 - 20mA probe (J T/c)

And apparently the unit is supposedly accurate to +/- 0.5%

Output rotation of the compressor is permanently on full tilt, but the controller is CAPABLE of controlling it.

The controller is capable of reading/useing any temp based on the thermocouple in use... that appears to be the only limiting factor...

[Gary Lloyd]

I would offer that any and all of these functions could be controlled by suction line temperature a few inches from the compressor, with more accuracy. For that matter, these could all be controlled from discharge line temp. The downside to either would be that it doesn't show you evaporator temp, but then it doesn't do that (accurately) anyway.

[fr0st]

From the feature's I've seen in a mach 2 (LCD and whatnot) It'd be safe to assume its a sort of microcontroller. What we need to know is how is measures the probe resistance.
The only two ways I know sofare are -
The probes put in a RC oscillator and the controller counts the frequency to determine the resistance

A voltage divider measures by a AD converter, most lkely in the controller itself

The latter is more accurate but both should be good to the nearest degree once calibrated and should work linearly.

[DaGooch]

Originally posted by Gary Lloyd
I would offer that any and all of these functions could be controlled by suction line temperature a few inches from the compressor, with more accuracy. For that matter, these could all be controlled from discharge line temp. The downside to either would be that it doesn't show you evaporator temp, but then it doesn't do that (accurately) anyway.

The controller sensor on the Kryotech SuperG2 unit is measuring the return line temperature about half an inch above the evaporator and I believe it also to be more accurate and optimal location for monitoring as well compared to the Mach I.

[DarKcyde]

Originally posted by Marci
The controller is capable of reading/useing any temp based on the thermocouple in use... that appears to be the only limiting factor...

So, if we change the probe, to a J or K type for example, we could get around all these -50C problems? If one is doing a full r404 (or 507) mod with cap tube change, you're gonna have it ripped apart completely anyways. Seems that replacing the probe is a small thing in comparison, and almost required, given that those mods are likely to push the prommy into -50 territory.

Fugger, Stinger and others have indicated that the prommy reads Err0 past -50, and Stinger said he tried changing p25 (Low Absolute alarm) with no effect. Err0 indicates probe Open or Short though... so basically a modded prommy simply pushes these probes too far. Ppl who get crazy readings all over the map obviously are on the edge, where the probe isnt reading properly anymore, but hasnt quite gone completely open or short (not sure which, I'm sure Bowmans resistance readings will shed light on that).

I think a probe mod is in order, as a modded prommy is giving temps the NTC probe was never meant to deal with. It doesnt make sense to change the performance of a smoothly running system, only to break all its control functions. Perhaps this should be added to the TO-DO list for a refridgerant change on the prommy?

[Gary Lloyd]

The controller sensor on the Kryotech SuperG2 unit is measuring the return line temperature about half an inch above the evaporator and I believe it also to be more accurate and optimal location for monitoring as well compared to the Mach I.

I agree, but on the modded prommies the slightly higher temperature on the suction line near the evaporator may still be too cold for accurate sensing. On the other hand, optimum charge may not bring enough cooling back to swing the temperatures for control purposes, if sensing near the compressor. Some experimentation would be in order.

[G H Z]

Hey Bowman, do you build your own phase Change system's, or modify the Chip-Con unit's?

I want to build my own and have some skill/knowledge, and an old mini fridge sitting here, but that's it. One thing I was curious about.....is it possible to cut the evap line and seal it quickly so you do not loose the charge? Heh, yes I know, but actually I think there is a way.

Sorry if this does not fit into the topic

G H Z

[bowman1964]

Originally posted by G H Z
Hey Bowman, do you build your own phase Change system's, or modify the Chip-Con unit's?

I want to build my own and have some skill/knowledge, and an old mini fridge sitting here, but that's it. One thing I was curious about.....is it possible to cut the evap line and seal it quickly so you do not loose the charge? Heh, yes I know, but actually I think there is a way.

Sorry if this does not fit into the topic

G H Z

yes there is a way...it is hard to do but it can be done.

you have to crimp the copper tubing very very tightly in 2 places leaving a couple of inches of gap between the 2 crimps.then cut though in the middle,then with a good torch brase the cut ends quicky.this isnt easy sometimes.i dont even bother because i just pump the refrigerant into a empty cyl and use it for testing later.then cut the ends normally.but most of the time what i get to is empty anyways

[Gary Lloyd]

Bowman, have you monitored the suction line temps near the compressor on modded (and unmodded) prommies, at both idle and full load? I'm thinking this would be a good place to mount the sensor for better and more accurate control, although it may require changing the setpoints.

[DarKcyde]

RE: Controller

As Bob(nz) noted in Fugger's 507 mod thread, the Carel controller has different models for the different probes. So we cant just swap out the probes, unless NTC probes and thermocouples are compatible, but I doubt it. If anyone thinks otherwise, plz let us know.

I was thinking about the need for the controller at all. What does it really do for us? The only vital function is shutting down the compressor and comp if things go horribly wrong. Gary and others have noted that many of the things it controls are kinna dubious... like fan speeds, the evap head heater, etc. Personally, I'd rather have full control over my fans w/ a fanbus or the like. The evap heater could be wired always on, the only drawback to that might be a few seconds longer startup time. But I dont think I ever want it turning off when some arbitrary alarm gets tripped, thus giving the risk of condensation inside my comp, especially if I'm not around. My rig runs 24/7, so thats a real danger.

I run the prommy off a separate power supply regardless, and IMO shutting down the comp thru the power button is not optimal (stupid ATX spec mobo's have the 4 second idiot delay that annoys me to no end). A better solution would be to trip the comp's PSU thru the PSU power switch, perhaps using a relay.

OK, if your head bulges w/ refridgeration knowledge, here's your chance for input. What should a controller on the prommy monitor? Everyone wants to see their evap temps, but as Gary's been hinting, maybe the suction line would be better for control purposes. No reason we couldnt do both. There was also mention of a high-pressure cut-off for modded prommies. Are there any other things we might wanna monitor and/or control?

[AudiMan]

Gary... the MachI controller (IR32Z) - a run down of what (or ALL) it does.... basically not a lot!!

You set 4 points.

1 - Temperature at which PC Powers up (-33 default)
2 - Temperature Fans slow down to silent running
3 - Temperature Fans speed up due to high temp
4 - Temperature at which it turns off if it gets too hot

Thats yer lot. All are adjustable... not straightforward to program as they're all based on differences, so every setting is in proportion to the other....

I Think from what I recall (on a MkII now so don't have the MkI to reference) you set the switch off temp... -20 degrees.

You set the boot temp as a difference from this, usually 13. -20 - 13 = -33

You then set a higher point where the fans speed up, -28 I think, and the low point for when they slow down is set as a difference from that... so if u set this to 12 then it'll be -28 - 12 = -40, so fans slow to silent at -40.

That's it's parameters in a nutshell, st1, st2, p1, p2.

Other parameters are all left to standard factory default for that controller I beleive, other than sensor calibrations. The -50 alarm and -60 shutdown stuff are all the standard settings for this controller if u bought one separately (I think!)

I'm still hunting for who makes the PCB for the MkII as I'm sure Chip-con don't make it themselves... it'll be an OEM of some form...

So, in summary, EVERY factor is dependant purely on the calibration of the temperature sensor.

In theory according to the manual, taking an accurate measurement then setting the offset (Paramter P14) SHOULD be all that is required to get the Promi more accurate. Not having one here I can't test this...

Now, If you have DTC Probes hooked up to it instead of the stock probes, you get extra control over a few parameters that may be useful...

1 - Compensation Coefficient - C4
2 - Ambient Compensation of 2nd Probe - C19

So praps hooking up a DTC Probe may be worth a try (whatever one of those is and whatever it does - I'm assuming it's a thermal probe of some sort)

C13 is also a useful parameter.
Setting to 0 : 4 - 20mA probe (K T/c)
Setting to 1 : 0 - 20mA probe (J T/c)

And apparently the unit is supposedly accurate to +/- 0.5%

Output rotation of the compressor is permanently on full tilt, but the controller is CAPABLE of controlling it.

The controller is capable of reading/useing any temp based on the thermocouple in use... that appears to be the only limiting factor...

Hey Marci, I've been struggling with my IR32Z for countless hours trying to get it running right after having it reset.

Could you please explain the process on how to set these parameters? I've read the manual, but it's not very user friendly.

You said the following:

1 - Temperature at which PC Powers up (-33 default)
2 - Temperature Fans slow down to silent running
3 - Temperature Fans speed up due to high temp
4 - Temperature at which it turns off if it gets too hot

Which paramter determines the temp at which the PC starts up?
Which paramter determines the fans to slow down?
Which paramter determines the fans to speed up?
Which paramter determines the unit to turn off if it gets too hot?

Thanks!!

My prommy seems to be cooling down to ER0, then it warms up to like -20 something, then it starts cooling down again and acting up.

I need to stabilize this thing.

[Sley_Face]

Bowman is back?

[Charles Wirth]

This thread is from 2003

He still has a registered account and always welcome. Not sure what he is up to.

Audiman, Chilly1 has been working with the sensors and if the resistor mod would prevent it from reaching error it might run correctly. I never had to reset my controller from my Mach1