Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 35

Thread: MSI GeForce GTS 450 Cyclone 1GB Review, Fishy conclusion?

  1. #1
    Banned
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    38

    Red face MSI GeForce GTS 450 Cyclone 1GB Review, Fishy conclusion?

    I think the conclusion may be a little off, no?


    Quote Originally Posted by Shame Baxtor @ TweakTown
    Final Thoughts
    The first thing that has to be said is, yes, I understand that the HD 5770 can be overclocked as well, and while that would paint a slightly better picture for the HD 5770 in this case, the bottom line is that the model doesn't have anywhere near the OC potential of the GTS 450. The only model in the whole ATI line up that has any real OC potential is the HD 5970 which can achieve some very impressive clocks. Outside of that model, most ATI cards offer a good, moderate overclock; but nothing like the levels we're seeing from NVIDIA lately with cards like the GTS 450 and GTX 460.
    As for how our clocks should compare to other peoples, multiple companies have told us that you should be reaching around the 950MHz mark when it comes to the core, so we're fairly confident you should be able to achieve that. The only thing that will differ is the memory clock. Depending if you’re benching or gaming will also determine what you end up with. If you're wanting it as your OC for when you game, you might just dial it back a little, something around 925MHz should be very easy.

    There's really two main points that need to be made, though. The first is that while the model is better value than the GTX 460, when it came to overclocking the two models they are clearly for two different budgets. If someone has a under $150 US budget, they don't walk out of a store with a $230 US GTX 460. The same when budgets are reversed. What NVIDIA have done, is if your budget is under $150 US, you walk out of the store with a GTS 450 and not a HD 5750 or HD 5770, and if your budget is over $200, you walk out with a GTX 460 and not an ATI equivalent.
    The other point that needs to be made is the high resolution performance. We've seen NVIDIA struggle with 2560 x 1600 gaming a bit with the 400 series and here's no different, because quite often we see that ATI is able to outperform the GTS 450 at this resolution, even when the GTS 450 is at 950MHz. What's so important about this is that it's irrelevant; these cards aren't designed to run at that resolution and just because the HD 5770 can get 44 FPS vs. 40 FPS at 2560 x 1600, neither card is going to be playable. At resolutions when the cards are scoring above 60 FPS, though, we see that the NVIDIA card, especially at 950MHz is able to take out the win almost every time.
    What took AMD four models; the HD 5750, HD 5770, HD 5830 and HD 5850, NVIDIA have really been able to destroy in two, the GTS 450 for the first two, and GTX 460 for the latter two.
    The question now? What does AMD do? Drop the price on all models that will be getting replaced by the 6000 series in October and onwards to help everyone get rid of surplus stock.
    AMD can't make their offerings better; they can only make them cheaper.
    NVIDIA could've probably offered us a stock clock on the GTS 450 of 850MHz, much in the way they could've offered us a higher one on the GTX 465. I've said it before, though, doing so doesn't create the same buzz. NVIDIA know how to market a product, and marketed one they have. The GTS 450 is going to slide into a lot of peoples machines.
    http://www.tweaktown.com/articles/35...d/index21.html

  2. #2
    Xtreme Addict
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    2,128
    Nothing special about that. Review sponsored by Nvidia so thats what Nvidia expects them to write. Does it suck? Yes. But what can we do?

  3. #3
    Xtreme Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    319
    lol tweaktown. Not even subtle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cleatus View Post
    Just cause you pour syrup over crap dont make it pancakes

  4. #4
    I am Xtreme Ket's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    6,822
    Its about right. Few years ago ATi were doing the same thing nvidia are now doing and nobody cared. The roles have just reversed. ATi found themselves in a dominant position, and milked it. Just like nvidia have done so many times before.

    "Prowler"
    X570 Tomahawk | R7 3700X | 2x16GB Klevv BoltX @ 3600MHz CL18 | Powercolor 6800XT Red Devil | Xonar DX 7.1 | 2TB Barracuda | 256GB & 512GB Asgard NVMe drives | 2x DVD & Blu-Ray opticals | EVGA Supernova 1000w G2

    Cooling:

    6x 140mm LED fans, 1x 200mm LED fan | Modified CoolerMaster Masterliquid 240

    Asrock Z77 thread! | Asrock Z77 Extreme6 Review | Asrock P67 Extreme4 Review | Asrock P67 Extreme4/6 Pro3 thread | Asrock Z68 Extreme4 thread | Asrock Z68 Extreme4 Review | Asrock Z68 Gen3 Thread | 8GB G-Skill review | TK 2.ZERO homepage | P5Q series mBIOS thread
    Modded X570 Aorus UEFIs

  5. #5
    Xtreme Legend
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Stuttgart, Germany
    Posts
    929
    if you don't like the review, ask if you'd like to smoke what the author smoked, if not go get your reading material somewhere else

  6. #6
    Xtreme Addict
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    2,128
    Quote Originally Posted by W1zzard View Post
    if you don't like the review, ask if you'd like to smoke what the author smoked, if not go get your reading material somewhere else
    This, but the fact that just about every review site got their samples from Nvidia messes things up. Most of the sites are not using the reference model, but a OC'd model. And I'd bet a bunch that those were provided by Nvidia themselves.

    So, the every site is in the mess of favouring Nvidia, since they brought them the test samples. Some sites just use more aggressive wording than others.

  7. #7
    Aussie God
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Copenhagen, Denmark
    Posts
    4,596
    Who gives a rats @ss about what Shane Baxtor thinks??
    He is not worthy of being a reviewer... He manipulates figures... He uses physX in 3Dmark Vantage, without writing it in his reviews.... For some reason he started doing this when nvidia launched a new series of products..... He has his nose so far up the hole on nvidia that it is unethical to let him review.... However, seems Mr.Cameron Wilmot couldnt care less about the honesty of the articles on TweakTown, as long as there is trafic.... I recently pointed it out very directly, again, that Shane was faking results to make nvidia look better....

    But sure; Everyone, enjoy the high quality of reviews by TweakTown.... For me, it is absolutely useless....
    Competition ranking;
    2005; Netbyte, Karise/Denmark #1 @ PiFast
    2008; AOCM II, Minfeld/Germany #2 @ 01SE/AM3/8M (w. Oliver)
    2009; AMD-OC, Viborg/Denmark #2 @ max freq Gigabyte TweaKING, Paris/France #4 @ 32M/01SE (w. Vanovich)
    2010: Gigabyte P55, Hamburg/Germany #6 @ wprime 1024/SPI 1M (w. THC) AOCM III, Minfeld/Germany #6 @ 01SE/AM3/1M/8M (w. NeoForce)

    Spectating;
    2010; GOOC 2010 Many thanks to Gigabyte!


  8. #8
    Xtreme Legend
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Stuttgart, Germany
    Posts
    929
    Quote Originally Posted by Calmatory View Post
    This, but the fact that just about every review site got their samples from Nvidia messes things up. Most of the sites are not using the reference model, but a OC'd model. And I'd bet a bunch that those were provided by Nvidia themselves.

    So, the every site is in the mess of favouring Nvidia, since they brought them the test samples. Some sites just use more aggressive wording than others.
    we didnt get any samples from nvidia. and i'd REALLY like to have one so i can have proper power/noise numbers for the reference design...

  9. #9
    Banned
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    38
    Quote Originally Posted by Ket View Post
    Its about right. Few years ago ATi were doing the same thing nvidia are now doing and nobody cared. The roles have just reversed. ATi found themselves in a dominant position, and milked it. Just like nvidia have done so many times before.
    Whatever, doesn't make it right to LIE does it...

  10. #10
    Xtreme Addict
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    1,870
    Quote Originally Posted by Calmatory View Post
    This, but the fact that just about every review site got their samples from Nvidia messes things up.
    Most review sites got their samples from AIB's, just like they do for AMD reviews. You're over-hyping what amounts to nothing. 9 of the 12 cards available at newegg are factory overclocked yet you're whining about people reviewing the overclocked cards? Sheesh.....

  11. #11
    Xtreme Legend
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Stuttgart, Germany
    Posts
    929
    Quote Originally Posted by trinibwoy View Post
    Most review sites got their samples from AIB's, just like they do for AMD reviews. You're over-hyping what amounts to nothing. 9 of the 12 cards available at newegg are factory overclocked yet you're whining about people reviewing the overclocked cards? Sheesh.....
    i think the issue is comparing a highly overclocked gts 450 to a stock hd5770, which are both priced the same, and then claiming the gts 450 offers better performance per dollar

  12. #12
    Xtreme X.I.P. Particle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    3,219
    Limited overclocking potential? 5000 series cards can often do 1GHz or close to it. That's pretty significant.
    Particle's First Rule of Online Technical Discussion:
    As a thread about any computer related subject has its length approach infinity, the likelihood and inevitability of a poorly constructed AMD vs. Intel fight also exponentially increases.

    Rule 1A:
    Likewise, the frequency of a car pseudoanalogy to explain a technical concept increases with thread length. This will make many people chuckle, as computer people are rarely knowledgeable about vehicular mechanics.

    Rule 2:
    When confronted with a post that is contrary to what a poster likes, believes, or most often wants to be correct, the poster will pick out only minor details that are largely irrelevant in an attempt to shut out the conflicting idea. The core of the post will be left alone since it isn't easy to contradict what the person is actually saying.

    Rule 2A:
    When a poster cannot properly refute a post they do not like (as described above), the poster will most likely invent fictitious counter-points and/or begin to attack the other's credibility in feeble ways that are dramatic but irrelevant. Do not underestimate this tactic, as in the online world this will sway many observers. Do not forget: Correctness is decided only by what is said last, the most loudly, or with greatest repetition.

    Rule 3:
    When it comes to computer news, 70% of Internet rumors are outright fabricated, 20% are inaccurate enough to simply be discarded, and about 10% are based in reality. Grains of salt--become familiar with them.

    Remember: When debating online, everyone else is ALWAYS wrong if they do not agree with you!

    Random Tip o' the Whatever
    You just can't win. If your product offers feature A instead of B, people will moan how A is stupid and it didn't offer B. If your product offers B instead of A, they'll likewise complain and rant about how anyone's retarded cousin could figure out A is what the market wants.

  13. #13
    Xtreme Addict
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    1,656
    Quote Originally Posted by Ejizz View Post
    Whatever, doesn't make it right to LIE does it...
    Who cares, there are plenty of reviews why would anyone care to get so hung up about one sites review or their personal conclusion on a product.

    If it where that simple we would all only goto one master review site, why bother with the rest because they will all say the same thing right....
    Work Rig: Asus x58 P6T Deluxe, i7 950 24x166 1.275v, BIX2/GTZ/D5
    3x2048 GSkill pi Black DDR3 1600, Quadro 600
    PCPower & Cooling Silencer 750, CM Stacker 810

    Game Rig: Asus x58 P6T, i7 970 24x160 1.2v HT on, TRUE120
    3x4096 GSkill DDR3 1600, PNY 660ti
    PCPower & Cooling Silencer 750, CM Stacker 830

    AMD Rig: Biostar TA790GX A2+, x4 940 16x200, stock hsf
    2x2gb Patriot DDR2 800, PowerColor 4850
    Corsair VX450

  14. #14
    Xtreme Addict
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    2,128
    Quote Originally Posted by trinibwoy View Post
    Most review sites got their samples from AIB's, just like they do for AMD reviews. You're over-hyping what amounts to nothing. 9 of the 12 cards available at newegg are factory overclocked yet you're whining about people reviewing the overclocked cards? Sheesh.....
    Right. Butthurt much?

    If you actually bothered to think about what I've written earlier you would most probably be able to connect the dots. Nothing to do with this specific case, more with the ethics, or lack of with many review sites. Like the GTX 280 review samples were from AIBs, and it was just coincidence that most sites tested the card more or less exactly with the same games. Oh, and wasn't there few sites which reviewed some cards with drivers which weren't released to the public at the time the review went live?

    It doesn't matter wheter Nvidia or AMD does this. It doesn't change the fact that from time to time it's those two companies which get to tell what to bench and what to mention in the reviews. Sure, it's just partnering with the sites, but thinking that AMD/Nvidia do it solely just to be nice is naive. They do it to promote their products, to make their product look better than competitors, either by downplaying the competitor or praising their product. In the end, it gives flawed review to the end user.

    As a consumer me, you and anyone else should HATE the sites which reviews can be considered biased in any way. They just fool the consumer instead of giving accurate insight how to spend their money. For example those GPU databases are utterly inaccurate and anyone comparing old cards against new ones is doomed to be mislead. Still people do this and most actually think it's cool to have such a feature.

  15. #15
    Xtreme X.I.P.
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Shipai
    Posts
    31,147
    Quote Originally Posted by W1zzard View Post
    i think the issue is comparing a highly overclocked gts 450 to a stock hd5770, which are both priced the same, and then claiming the gts 450 offers better performance per dollar
    that plus claiming the 450 is superior to the 5770 because it overclocks more... lol...
    it does, but it NEEDS that overclock to get CLOSE to the 5770, it still doesnt even beat a stock 5770...

    but hey its shane baxtor... he never made it a secret that he biased towards nvidia...

    EDIT: wait, they say a 450 is faster than a 5770 in that review at the end of it?
    the 450s have a higher overall score?
    Last edited by saaya; 09-14-2010 at 09:27 AM.

  16. #16
    no sleep, always tired TheGoat Eater's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Iowa, USA
    Posts
    1,832
    This is definitely not news, your opinion that a review seems fishy is not news at all

  17. #17
    Xtreme Addict
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Illinois
    Posts
    2,095
    Quote Originally Posted by saaya View Post
    that plus claiming the 450 is superior to the 5770 because it overclocks more... lol...
    it does, but it NEEDS that overclock to get CLOSE to the 5770, it still doesnt even beat a stock 5770...

    but hey its shane baxtor... he never made it a secret that he biased towards nvidia...

    EDIT: wait, they say a 450 is faster than a 5770 in that review at the end of it?
    the 450s have a higher overall score?
    In tweaktown, video card recommendations are based upon Unigine with Extreme Tesselation and 3DMark with PhysX enabled. Also PPD on F@H.
    E7200 @ 3.4 ; 7870 GHz 2 GB
    Intel's atom is a terrible chip.

  18. #18
    Wanna look under my kilt?
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Glasgow-ish U.K.
    Posts
    4,396
    Even if nV supplied most of the review samples, i've noticed that in most cases, the reviews are still showing the 5770 to offer better FPS in *most* games/ resolutions and also offer lower power consumption. There have been a few exceptions to this, but generally, regardless of the wording around the slides, the raw results aint been going nVidias way
    Quote Originally Posted by T_M View Post
    Not sure i totally follow anything you said, but regardless of that you helped me come up with a very good idea....
    Quote Originally Posted by soundood View Post
    you sigged that?

    why?
    ______

    Sometimes, it's not your time. Sometimes, you have to make it your time. Sometimes, it can ONLY be your time.

  19. #19
    Xtreme Mentor
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    2,671
    The first thing that has to be said is, yes, I understand that the HD 5770 can be overclocked as well, and while that would paint a slightly better picture for the HD 5770 in this case, the bottom line is that the model doesn't have anywhere near the OC potential of the GTS 450. The only model in the whole ATI line up that has any real OC potential is the HD 5970 which can achieve some very impressive clocks.
    Seriously, what a load of total bull!

    So my previous 1066 Mhz 5770s on air were just a figment of my Imagination?

    The GTX 450 is a joke compared to the 5770.

    What took AMD four models; the HD 5750, HD 5770, HD 5830 and HD 5850, NVIDIA have really been able to destroy in two, the GTS 450 for the first two, and GTX 460 for the latter two.
    The question now? What does AMD do? Drop the price on all models that will be getting replaced by the 6000 series in October and onwards to help everyone get rid of surplus stock.
    AMD can't make their offerings better; they can only make them cheaper.


    I am very confident that most people will still be choosing to have a 5770 over a GTX 450.
    Last edited by Mungri; 09-14-2010 at 10:20 AM.

  20. #20
    Xtreme Guru
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    3,562
    Quote Originally Posted by Calmatory View Post
    This, but the fact that just about every review site got their samples from Nvidia messes things up.
    How does it mess things up exactly? Why should the source of a review sample have ANY impact upon the conclusion? Let me answer that: it SHOULDN'T.

    Talk of NVIDIA and AMD "sponsoring" positive reviews is absolutely preposterous. I've been working for some time in my current position and with all of these larger companies, they expect to get a lambasting every now and then but a writer better have evidence to back it up.

    Will some companies withhold review samples for less than glowing reviews and reward positive ones? Yes. Case and point: Thermalright. An ethical website will tell them to screw off. An unethical one will roll over and play the company's game. However, in my experience NONE of the big players (again: NVIDIA, ATI, AMD, Intel, etc.) do this.

    On the other hand, there are companies out there who will read a less than glowing review and TALK to the writer in order to understand more about the conclusion so improvements many be made to future products.

    It is up to the reader to make a decision regarding which article to believe and which ones should be ignored.

  21. #21
    Xtreme Addict
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    2,128
    Quote Originally Posted by SKYMTL View Post
    How does it mess things up exactly? Why should the source of a review sample have ANY impact upon the conclusion? Let me answer that: it SHOULDN'T.
    Right, it shouldn't. But that doesn't mean that it DOESN'T. I'm not saying that every site which gets their samples from the manufacturer are doing this, but some are. And their reviews are complete POS, yet people don't give a rats ass about it. No one cares. It happens all the time.

    It is up to the reader to make a decision regarding which article to believe and which ones should be ignored.
    It should not be up to the reader though. You don't(hopefully) write reviews in a way that it is up to the reader to figure out the conclusion.

    What I am saying is that the reviews should be about giving a hint to the user about the performance. Right now it seems that there are lots of bigger sites which are giving out false information of performance of certain products. The quality of reviews sucks. Doesn't take too long to find a few reviews which use not up to date drivers, not up to date software etc. And then, when people act like +/- 10 % performance difference is a big deal for the end user, it gets bloody.

  22. #22
    Xtreme Guru
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    3,562
    Quote Originally Posted by Calmatory View Post
    What I am saying is that the reviews should be about giving a hint to the user about the performance. Right now it seems that there are lots of bigger sites which are giving out false information of performance of certain products. The quality of reviews sucks. Doesn't take too long to find a few reviews which use not up to date drivers, not up to date software etc. And then, when people act like +/- 10 % performance difference is a big deal for the end user, it gets bloody.
    This I agree with to a certain extent. I will admit that it is sometimes interesting to look at benchmarks and then read the conclusion since they sometimes don't line up.

    There are many things that need to be done for a review:

    - "Latest" games. Unfortunately, many of the newer ones are not fit to benchmark IMO which is why older ones are used. There are plenty of sites out there that use them for comparison testing and to me the age of a game doesn't impact upon its ability to objectively compare one card to another. It is nice to have the latest games but sometimes that just isn't possible. However, this is where my next points come in.

    - Patches. HUGE point here. Believe it or not, game patches can and will have an impact upon performance as bugs are fixed. Two of the most popular games to benchmark right now are AvP and Dirt 2 of which both have had substantial performance improvements brought about through patches.

    - Sample length. One run of 30 seconds won't cut it.

    - ACTUAL play time. How can one pick up errors or problems in a game if they aren't actualyl playing it? Setting up a scripted benchmark and walking away isn't the way to do things IMO.

    - Stand alone benchmarks that are not incorporated into the game: HUGE problem right now. Both NVIDIA and ATI have the ability to optimize their drivers for a single instance while not actually improving their performance in the game itself. IMO, these tools should never be used in a review. This goes for the benchmarks for AvP, Final Fantasy, Devil May Cry, Lost Planet 2, etc. etc.

    IF a website does all of these things correctly and they still can't come up with an objective conclusion, well that's their problem.


    Phew....

  23. #23
    Xtreme Addict
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    1,870
    Quote Originally Posted by Calmatory View Post
    Right. Butthurt much?
    You've been complaining incessantly for days now about the most trivial of things and talking about butthurt? Heh....

    If you actually bothered to think about what I've written earlier you would most probably be able to connect the dots. Nothing to do with this specific case, more with the ethics, or lack of with many review sites.
    Unless you have proof that a particular reviewer fudges his numbers because he got free samples for review you're just crying over nothing. Proof before whine please

  24. #24
    Wanna look under my kilt?
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Glasgow-ish U.K.
    Posts
    4,396
    Anyone who thinks nVidia and ATI dont bribe/ co-erce/ sweeten reviewers to give good reviews of products if living in a purer world than the real one.

    There are many articles on the net about the underhand tactics. For example- uploads of nVidias checklist for reviewers. Reviewers who have been left out of product launch review rosters because they didnt give a glowing review last time around, or said nice things about the competition.

    I personally have been offered gear on the proviso I gave it a good review and by good, I dont mean competent.

    There is as much pressure from the AIBs as the parent. nVIdia if anything dont need to care so much. The AIBs are all in competition with each other and want the best reviews for their releases. With aftermarket cooling + PCBs, its more diverse than having the same card 8 times with different stickers.
    Quote Originally Posted by T_M View Post
    Not sure i totally follow anything you said, but regardless of that you helped me come up with a very good idea....
    Quote Originally Posted by soundood View Post
    you sigged that?

    why?
    ______

    Sometimes, it's not your time. Sometimes, you have to make it your time. Sometimes, it can ONLY be your time.

  25. #25
    Xtreme Addict
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    1,870
    I would argue that incompetence is a far greater problem with reviews than bribery. Review sites live off reputation, it won't take very long for people to start screaming bloody murder if a site is consistently off base. It also follows the trends - if Nvidia is popular then everyone agrees with glowing reviews of Nvidia cards. When AMD is popular good Nvidia reviews get the taint of bias/bribery/corruption etc etc. The solution is for people to read more than one review and draw their own conclusions.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •