Processing the difference

[Otis11]

As a preface: this thread is basically about the differences in some computer hardware, mainly processors and motherboards, and the benefits of each. (Yes i know the title is corny but it was the only thing that I could come up with. )

So, as was pointed out in the Nehalem thread, I'm kinda new at this. I have some background in building a few computers and upgrading, but nothing very complicated and nothing out of the norm. I was looking into a build to challenge myself and was hoping for something new. I posted on this website and found two things: it's a lot harder to distinguish which processor/motherboard combo is the best, and you guys know what you're talking about.

And with that (and a recommendation from alucasa), I'm currently looking at Harpertown. What difference does the last letter of the model number make?

Model #: BX80574E5405A Vs. Model #: BX80574E5405P

For the board would it be worth getting a quad socket and try to run 4?

I'm pretty sure the answer is no to this one but, there won't be anything to upgrade these to in the future except higher clock speeds will there?

And just out of curiosity, if you have a multi-cpu system, the cpus have to be running at the same clock speed don't they?

Man I feel long winded...

[alucasa]

BX80574E5405P means the box comes with a passive cooler. BX80574E5405A means the box comes with an active cooler.

Passive cooler is effective when you are building a highly specialized system where you use 1u / 2u rackmount cases with wind tunnels. Using an active cpu cooler in such low-height cases is a pain to handle, so people use case's intake fans to draw air in, and use a wind tunnel to direct air flow through passive heatsinks, and rear fans will draw air out.

Those are E54xx cpu which are meant for dual socket. For quad socket, you need enterprise class cpu (E7400s) which aren't really in an individual's budget.
Here is a link to E7420, the lowest end of E7400 cpu for quad sockets, http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819117178

Forget trying to build quad socket, it's completely & entirely different area. You will need a specialized chassis and a specialized PSU. Those are not cheap. In addition, 4 CPUs alone will cost you up to 4+ grand.

Dual socket is your best bet.

However, if you really, really, really, want to build a quad socket rig, you will have to seek EOL (End of life) CPUs and motherboards, they shouldn't be too expensive, but expect a mere i7 920 beat them.

For any setup that requires more than one cpu, the cpus have to identical, it has to be the same model. In some cases, they also have to have the same CPUID.
Some CPUs of same models have different CPUID due to their core revisions.

You will also need registered / ECC DDR2-667 RAM, or FB-DIMM for higher-end Harpertown setup.

[Bobsama]

To put it simply, a Core i7 920 crushes Harpertown for performance per dollar. The price of an single E5420 is just too high to counter an i7 at 4GHz. Sure, less points total, but you're also able to get away with a <$270 motherboard, $290 chip, and $50 in DDR3 RAM.

[Otis11]

Ok, but with the knowledge that I've never overclocked anything in my life (despite a few failed attempts) would a stock i7 configuration still beat a stock Xeon config? For that matter, what about the Q6600? (I'm going to try to overclock whatever I end up building, but I don't want to figure that in as I'm not sure how successful I will be.)

And correct me if I'm wrong, which is actually pretty likely, but to get the benefits of DDR3 memory you have to use 3 sticks correct?
The cheapest 3 stick config i see is from crucial (link: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820148246) at 75.99. How reliable would that be? Would crunching kill it?

And it's also my understanding that O.C. has quite a bit to do with what motherboard you use. What would be a good choice for that?

[Bobsama]

Ok, but with the knowledge that I've never overclocked anything in my life (despite a few failed attempts) would a stock i7 configuration still beat a stock Xeon config? For that matter, what about the Q6600? (I'm going to try to overclock whatever I end up building, but I don't want to figure that in as I'm not sure how successful I will be.)

And correct me if I'm wrong, which is actually pretty likely, but to get the benefits of DDR3 memory you have to use 3 sticks correct?
The cheapest 3 stick config i see is from crucial (link: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820148246) at 75.99. How reliable would that be? Would crunching kill it?

And it's also my understanding that O.C. has quite a bit to do with what motherboard you use. What would be a good choice for that?

A single i7 920 at 2.67GHz would be ABOUT as fast as a stock DP E5405 setup. Those chips run at 2GHz at stock or up to 2.4GHz overclocked, and will still cost more. Looking at the "optimal" setup, E5420's at 2.5GHz each, 3GHz would be the overclocked frequency. Even on an Asus Z7S, you won't get a 4GHz Xeon DP setup unless you go with super-expensive E5440's or higher. So for the stock frequency comparison, a single i7 will do about as many points per day as a low-end Xeon. And overclocked, it'll slaughter a mid-range Xeon (3GHz).

You can just go with 3x1GB kits. Crucial has one kit for $36, which will work just fine for crunching. If you do want to use it as a primary desktop, then yes it'd be a better choice to grab a 3x2GB kit. Anyways--you can use 1, 2, or 3 sticks. It doesn't matter how many sticks, though triple-channel DOES offer a bit of a boost over single-channel mode, thanks to much higher bandwidth between a C2D/C2Q and Ci7. On a side note--I wouldn't expect problems from ValueRAM. In reality, the difference, while there, isn't so big.

From what I hear, any decent board will be limited by chip. Basically, mid-range and high-end X58 has very small differences in overclockability, though budget and low-end X58 may see quite a difference, though more due to PWM deficiencies. Loonym has (or had) an Intel DX58SO, Biostar TPower X58, DFI DK X58, and DFI LP X58. The DFI's did better then the Intel and Biostar boards, but the differences weren't so pronounced, and more limited by the individual i7's b-clock limit (for air cooling).

[Otis11]

So what should I be looking for in a motherboard assuming I go with the i7? (which is looking more and more likely)

And as I see it, the prices would be:

288.99 Processor - i7 920
75.99 Ram - Crucial 3x2GB
270.00 Motherboard (worst case scenario)
0.00 Hard drive, optical drive, monitor, Power supply(assuming 500W is enough), graphics card (GeForce 7800)
-------
634.98 + S&H

Did I miss anything? (I'm guessing so because that doesn't seem to bad considering it's an i7 machine...)

[Kristall-99]

If this is going to only be a crunching machine, I can toss a ide drive and graphics card you way, as long as you pay the shipping. I got tons of low-end gear just sitting at the rents waiting for me to get rid of it all.

Edit- nvm, i see you have the rest of the parts at your disposal. forget what I said

[alucasa]

Did I miss anything?

CPU heatsink.

If this is going to only be a crunching machine, -

Well, has to be. Why else would he ask here? This is the crunching forum after all, heh.

[Movieman]

So what should I be looking for in a motherboard assuming I go with the i7? (which is looking more and more likely)

And as I see it, the prices would be:

288.99 Processor - i7 920
75.99 Ram - Crucial 3x2GB
270.00 Motherboard (worst case scenario)
0.00 Hard drive, optical drive, monitor, Power supply(assuming 500W is enough), graphics card (GeForce 7800)
-------
634.98 + S&H

Did I miss anything? (I'm guessing so because that doesn't seem to bad considering it's an i7 machine...)

hard drive: 80 gig SATA from Newegg for app $40.00
dvdrw:$25.00
PSU: $70-80; Get a good one, grab a PCP+C610w when the egg has them on deal
case: Up to you..
memory: If your going to OC it get at least DDR3-1333(PC2-10700) and 3x1 gig is fine..

[Kristall-99]

Well, has to be. Why else would he ask here? This is the crunching forum after all, heh.

Well i was asking cause I built mine mainly for crunching but also got 2 3870's for the few hours of games I play during the week

But if he does need anything, let me know.

[alucasa]

hard drive: 80 gig SATA from Newegg for app $40.00
dvdrw:$25.00
PSU: $70-80; Get a good one, grab a PCP+C610w when the egg has them on deal
case: Up to you..
memory: If your going to OC it get at least DDR3-1333(PC2-10700) and 3x1 gig is fine..

Our good old movieman, he has all other stuff from his current rig. All he needs is a CPU, a mobo, and RAM apparently.

[Movieman]

Our good old movieman, he has all other stuff from his current rig. All he needs is a CPU, a mobo, and RAM apparently.

If you mean the Gainestown I have EVERYTHING except the board..everything..

[Bobsama]

If you mean the Gainestown I have EVERYTHING except the board..everything..

Hey Dave, send EVERYTHING my way. I'll track down a board for me!

Anyways--as he said, DDR3 1333 makes overclocking easiest. In WCG, there's basically no difference between high-speed and "low"-speed memory. But even 1066 should be overclockable enough, when you loosen the timings a bit and up the voltage a tad.

[Jaco]

I have the Asus P6T deluxe and Gigabyte UD4P X58 boards for my i7 920's.

Both are great boards ,personally I'd recommend the Gigabyte because it's a little cheaper.

[Otis11]

First, thanks for all the feed back. (And sorry it took so long for me to get back. Midterms are killing me.)

To address the cruncher topic, YEAH! This is going to be my primary machine that I'll update continuously as I get the money, but my goal with the overclocking is to make it an efficient 24/7 cruncher.

And I just realized off Movieman's comment, the new motherboard is only going to take a SATA hard drive isn't it? (I haven't built a computer in quite a while. )

Also, will a 500W PSU be enough? I figure it should but I just want to make sure.

Bobsama, so should i pay the extra $20 for 1333 Ram as it's my first time really overclocking or should i be fine either way? (and I was under the impression that only the 965 could get that high of transfer speeds, I thought the lower levels were locked.)

288.99 Processor - i7 920
75.99 Ram - Crucial 3x2GB
269.99 Gigabyte UD4P X58 board
0.00 Hard drive, optical drive, monitor, Power supply(assuming 500W is enough), graphics card (GeForce 7800)


Anything else I should know?

[jcool]

You will need a big cooler to make it work. Like REAL big. A TRUE (Thermalright Ultra Extreme) with LGA 1366 mounting kit and 2 medium-speed fans in push-pull is a good idea - those i7 CPUs are hot mofos, especially when run OCed with HT enabled at 100% load 24/7

As for the i7 vs. Harpertown argument earlier, it depends. On stock clocks, both setups do good points but to really shine, they need to be OCed properly of course.

For comparison's sake I attached the results my mainrig (i7 920 @ 4,3Ghz, HT on) and Fileserver (Dual X5450 @ 4,05Ghz) have gotten these last 14 days. Core speed advantage lies with the i7, but core count advantage lies with the Harpers and as you can see, it makes all the difference..
To match a FSB400, 3Ghz dual harpertown (read: E5420 @ BSEL mod), you'll need AT LEAST 4Ghz on an i7 + HT, maybe even more.

[jcool]

And finally, this is a 3,8Ghz i7 crunching 24/7 as well:

Who is bored enough to compare

[Jaco]

Hey Otis,

Been playing around with my Gigabyte UD4P and i7 920.
I can do 207 bclk at 1.38vtt with this board. (didn't try higher vtt yet )

Pretty good I'd say

[Otis11]

Ok so looking at the heat issue: most of the fans I see look to be around $50+ (The one I'm currently looking at is: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16835608007)

But for not to much more I could go to pseudo-liquid cooling with something like this: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16835106077

or: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16835108105

or even: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16835150097

Would those offer any advantage or are they just made to make noobs (like me) think they are watercooling it?

[Jaco]

Would those offer any advantage or are they just made to make noobs (like me) think they are watercooling it?

ehm ... yes

Good for running stock speed , but not more.
That single radiator is way to small for an oc'ed i7.

MUCH better off with a TRUE or Noctua NH-U12P

[Otis11]

Ok, while i understand that having a larger area to dissapate heat would be better, but wouldn't the Thermaltake have the same area as a mounted heat sink/fan combo and it moves 38.6-93.7 CFM which is more than the NH-U12P's 54.32 CFM (92.3 CMH). Granted it does take time to transfer the heat to the liquid and then move it to the heatsink in the liquid format, but that would be the same in any liquid cooled pc, so while not ideal, why would't it still be better?

Also, the Swiftech is moving 81.3 CFM and has the double sized radiator that most liquid coolers use (to my knowledge). What's wrong with that?

I'm not trying to doubt you, I'm just trying to find the flaw in my logic so I understand for future reference.

[Jaco]

I'm not a watercooling expert , so I can't really explain.
Those small single rad watercooling kits are good for low end cpu's which don't generate much heat. Not suited for a hot running 130w 920 i7 cpu.

But that Swiftech kit with dual rad is much better and is probably as good as a TRUE or Noctua. Swiftech is good quality imo.