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Thread: [Via Nano]Ars technica finds interesting anomaly in PCMark05,code favors intel chips

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    [Via Nano]Ars technica finds interesting anomaly in PCMark05,code favors intel chips

    Ars technica has put Atom against Via's new chip and during the testing in Futurmark's PCmark2005,they've found out that Futuremark made some unfair optimizations that favor intel chips over Via's and AMD's.

    http://arstechnica.com/reviews/hardw...o-review.ars/6

    This, gentle reader, is where things get fun. I've heard rumors for years that performance in PCMark 2005 could change depending on what CPUID was handed to the benchmark, but this is the first opportunity I've ever had to test that theory. The term CPUID refers to a processor-specific character string that stores information on the chip's manufacturer, available features, make, and model. Different manufacturers use different CPUIDs, including GenuineIntel, AuthenticAMD, CentaurHauls, and the now-obsolete CyrixInstead. Intel and AMD both lock their CPUIDs to prevent them being changed by a third party, but VIA doesn't—and that gives us an opportunity to explore a question that normally can't be explored.

    By changing Nano's CPUID, we can change what value is handed off to FutureMark and expose any irregularities in the benchmark results. If everything is five by five, we shouldn't see any meaningful performance variation at all. According to the PCMark 2005 whitepaper, "The cornerstones of our design process are transparency and neutrality. We make a strong effort to document all processes that make up the benchmark...Also, we always maintain the highest standards of neutrality, neither favoring nor dis-favoring any party. I'd say that lays out the company's position in no uncertain terms, so lets take a look at how different CPUIDs impact Nano's performance.

    The graph above covers all of PCMark 2005's test suites except for the memory benchmark. As you can see, everything here is as it should be; PCMark doesn't care if Nano identifies itself as GenuineIntel or CentaurHauls. Memory subsystem performance, on the other hand, looks a wee bit different.
    My my. Swap CentaurHauls for AuthenticAMD, and Nano's performance magically jumps about 10 percent. Swap for GenuineIntel, and memory performance goes up no less than 47.4 percent. This is not a test error or random occurance; I benchmarked each CPUID multiple times across multiple reboots on completely clean Windows XP installations. The gains themselves are not confined to a small group of tests within the memory subsystem evaluation, but stretch across the entire series of read/write tests. Only the memory latency results remain unchanged between the two CPUIDs.

    At the very least, this suggests some incredibly sloppy coding on Futuremark's part, as the company may be enabling or disabling CPU optimizations based on a processor's vendor name in CPUID instead of actually checking CPUID for SIMD support. In this case, PCMark 2005's memory subsystem test doesn't appear to be aware that Nano supports SSE2 and SSE3, and is instead running a ecidedly less-optimized code path. There are two factors, however, that make this explanation a bit difficult to swallow.

    First, there's the issue of timing. PCMark 2005 was released (obviously) in 2005, and was obviously coded with an eye towards supporting current and future processors. This is standard operating procedure for Futuremark, which always builds benchmarks designed to last for at least a year, and often two. VIA's C5N-T (Nehemiah) core may have only supported MMX and 3DNow!, but the C7 launched in 2005, and that processor supported SSE2 and SSE3 from day one. Even if proper extension support wasn't built into the first version of PCM2K5, we tested version 1.2.0, and that patch was released on or around 11-29-2006.

    Second, there's the issue of performance when Nano is identified as AuthenticAMD. If performance between the AMD and Intel CPUIDs was identical, there wouldn't really be a story here, but it isn't, and that's curious. Futuremark could plausibly argue that VIA's C3/C7 processors weren't exactly on the radar back in 2004-2005, but AMD and K8 certainly were, and K8 launched with full SSE and SSE2 support, with SSE3 added in 2005.

    None of this constitutes proof of wrongdoing, but it flies in the face of Futuremark's neutrality claims. Bad code is a fact of life, but companies that write benchmarks for a living and sell those benchmarks as evaluation tools have a responsibility to ensure that their software delivers the neutral framework that it promises. Based on the information I've gathered thus far, it seems Futuremark may have created three paths—one for Intel, one for AMD, and one generic "other" path. There's nothing wrong with optimized code paths, but our results would seem to indicate that some paths are decidedly more optimized than others.

    Anyone ever wondered why and how intel chips(Conroe/Penryn included) score so much better than AMD's in that memory subsystem test even though AMD K8/K10 score better in other memory synthetic tests(everest,sisoft sandra etc.)?

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    It's PCmark05,not the 3Dmark.

    edit:
    From the test@ars,we can see a power consumption measured on the sytem using lower specced PSU(250W)
    Testbed configuration

    The following components were identical between both testbeds.

    * Acer AL2216W 22" 1680x1050 LCD.
    * Seagate Barracude 7200.9 250GB HDD
    * 2GB OCZ DDR2-1066 @ DDR533
    * Windows XP w/SP3 installed
    * Enermax 250W PSU
    :
    http://arstechnica.com/reviews/hardw...o-review.ars/8
    Last edited by informal; 07-30-2008 at 07:34 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HussanAli View Post
    Hardly anyone using the 3Dmark 05 now.
    PCmark 2005?

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    Epic something or other....

    This should be plastered all over futuremarks website.

    Thanks for the info.

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    PCMark05, 3dmark (2003 to 2006 and vantage) do the same!
    I made a change on my gpu id (8400G to 8600GT) and ALL MY SCORES went up. JUST CHANGED THE GPU-ID NOTHING MORE.


    Its all about MONEY!

    This little sh*tty program gives point to your hardware brand, not only what it is capable of...
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    How much did they rise?
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    And please tell me you got screenshots of it

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    Wow SS please

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    Damn, this is sad to read. Although I dont think any benchmarks from FM are high priority results at all, people do look at it. Like Vista's performance index thingy, just to see how much better or worse it is than another product.

    But this is quite shocking and actually insta-rapes all benchmark results done thus far when used as a comparison between for example AMD and Intel (and in this case Via).

    Between CPU's from the same brand it's a non-issue but in the end they claim to be entirely neutral... Which they obviously are not.

    Makes you wonder what other programs (be it benchmark programs or just games) are ed like that.

    Not saying this is done on purpose but as noted in the article; when the string is changed to either AMD or Intel it should score the same.

    Wish they did a SuperPI/3DMark/Vantage run on it as well by changing these srings, quite curious what would happen...
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    Yet another reason to forget about 3DSh|t and PCBiased benchmarks
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rammsteiner View Post
    Damn, this is sad to read. Although I dont think any benchmarks from FM are high priority results at all, people do look at it. Like Vista's performance index thingy, just to see how much better or worse it is than another product.

    But this is quite shocking and actually insta-rapes all benchmark results done thus far when used as a comparison between for example AMD and Intel (and in this case Via).

    Between CPU's from the same brand it's a non-issue but in the end they claim to be entirely neutral... Which they obviously are not.

    Makes you wonder what other programs (be it benchmark programs or just games) are ed like that.

    Not saying this is done on purpose but as noted in the article; when the string is changed to either AMD or Intel it should score the same.

    Wish they did a SuperPI/3DMark/Vantage run on it as well by changing these srings, quite curious what would happen...
    Someone above posted he done a 3dmark and score was affected by vendor id substring, just waiting for a screenshot of it.

    Don't think Superpi looks for a uid at all, so no chanche of that reacting to any of this. For vantage, if 3dmark is suspected and pcmark proven, I think it's pretty to think it will be diffrent

    If this turns into proof, I'll never run any off their benchmarks again.

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    lol i predict that hell breaks lose now, amd fanboys will declare every benchmark as invalide (if it isn't won by amd), cause they are all payed intel bumpers... (waits for sharikou/dementia to notice this article)

    anyways, well its futuremark imho they they have reached there zenith with 3dmark 06, but nowadays there benchmarks are less and less improtant in favour for real games and apps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hornet331 View Post
    lol i predict that hell breaks lose now, amd fanboys will declare every benchmark as invalide (if it isn't won by amd), cause they are all payed intel bumpers... (waits for sharikou/dementia to notice this article)

    anyways, well its futuremark imho they they have reached there zenith with 3dmark 06, but nowadays there benchmarks are less and less improtant in favour for real games and apps.
    Define real games and apps.

    Btw, why there has to be fanboys etc, in EVERY possible thread in XS news section?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvin_The_Martian View Post
    And please tell me you got screenshots of it
    Please tell me you think he's serious....

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    Well if futuremark is checking the cpuid string, then someone with a C7 or nano should run all their benches and see if its isolated to pcmark, or all of futuremark. It would be interesting to see. I m suspending judgement atm, but i mean, if you know intel and amd lock the cpuid string.... :P
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    Quote Originally Posted by SKYMTL View Post
    Please tell me you think he's serious....
    Read the rest of my posts it should be pretty obvious

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    Quote Originally Posted by Calmatory View Post
    Define real games and apps.
    thing like C&C Red aleart 3 beta or any other game that is quite popular, boinc (rosetta, seti etc.), variouse rendering apps, encoding etc. you know the drill.

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    Oh dear, this could be pretty huge it's it's proven that Futuremark have been swinging results.... ALOT of people base their personal purchases off these kind of synthetic benchmarks.


    oooh, exciting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hornet331 View Post
    lol i predict that hell breaks lose now, amd fanboys will declare every benchmark as invalide (if it isn't won by amd), cause they are all payed intel bumpers... (waits for sharikou/dementia to notice this article)
    What's that for rubbish.

    It doesnt matter who's favoured, if a program which determines the overall performance of PC's actually favors certain hardware, all results are pretty much invalid. No matter whether AMD is actually favored or Intel, FM says their program(s) are neutral which they obviously are not.

    Try to keep your fanboy crap out of threads for a time. That would keep threads nice and clean.
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  20. #20
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    This needs to be checked for ATI, Nvidia, Intel, AMD and VIA for vantage.

    I have no words for Intel and Futuremark atm.

    Perkam

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    I typically don't like synthetic benchmarks because they don't have any exact correlation to real world uses (except in certain extreme cases). But if it turns out that some of them aren't even measuring the actual speed of what they are supposed to be measuring...

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    /gets popcorn

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    If this is true, I bet futuremark employees are trying to find a bomb shelter right about now...
    /sits back and waits for the firestorm
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    ouch... i think they weren't careful to notice that there are still other x86 manufacturers out there, lol... maybe amd should donate ars a cpu with an unlockable cpuid (are es chips locked?), so they could do a thorough investigation, and not just futuremark... i have a feeling this gets a lot deeper.
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  25. #25
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    oh whatever.. these guys are just peeved that the Via is a p.o.s. and nothing in the world will save that company from oblivion.. i cant believe they are evens till making cpu's. they make ton's of other chipsets , but cpu's man, you'd have to be retarded to buy one.

    jesus making up something like this is slanderous and could end up in court....

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