Performance diff between PA120.2 and MCR220 with 45CFM fans ?

[Scubar]

Just wondering if anyone would be able to tell me if there is a substantial performance difference between using a PA120.2 with 45CFM fans and a MCR220 with 45CFM fans.

The reason being is that the mounting holes on the MCR220 should match up perfectly with the back of the TT Mozart TX meaning i wouldnt have to cut out a large section of the case or drill new holes.

Heres what i plan on doing but I dont know how sufficient the 2xMCR220s with 2x45CFM fans in a push configuration will be.

Loop 1 ( 3/8" Tubing )
Res > DDC w/Petras top > CPU ( Q9450/Q9550 when released ) > NB ( Fuzion block on Asus Blitz ) > Rad

Loop 2 ( 3/8" Tubing )
Res > DDC w/Petras top > GPU ( 9800GTX when released ) > Rad

[Isriam]

you want rad > cpu generally

[Fujimitsu]

you want rad > cpu generally

Really shouldn't matter much for performance.

Not sure honestly exactly how much each rad will dissipate at that CFM.. I am terrible at remembering numbers. However either one is easily going to be more than enough for the loops your looking at, so I'd go with the cheaper/easier solution.

[Martinm210]

FYI
My MCR320 with 47cfm yate loons on an E6600 overclocked with 1.38Vcore and a D5 will heat my coolant up to about 4C delta ambient to water temperature.

I would guess an MCR220 would be maybe only 5-6C with a quad on it. The difference between a PA120.2 and a PA160 would be something like this.

For every 100 watts of heat load at an assumed 1.5gpm, Nexus fans 12V

PA120.2 C/W = .048 = 4.8C water to ambient
PA160 = .075 = 7.5C water to ambient

Difference between the two = 2.7C

Swiftech used a Delta WFB1212M fan for their C/W curves, so it's a bit of an apples to oranges comparison. Fans behave alot like pumps and just because two are rated at a same maximum CFM rate doesn't mean they do mounted to a radiator.

The delta fan at 7V has a C/W for the MCR220 of .47 (95cfm for two fans), at 5V its .69 (68cfm for two fans). But it looks to me like these may be actual CFM mounted to the radiator which is quite a bit less than zero pressure cfm.

So an equal, is probably going to be in the .55-.60 C/W range as a guess.


With that, the PA120.2 = 4.8 Degrees for 100 Watts
MCR220 = 6 degrees for 100 Watts

I'm not sure what the quads are running these days, but a 100 watt heat load is only a little over 1 degree difference for low speed fans. Looking at the Delta 1212M curve at 12V, the rads are much closer, PA120.2 at .03 and the MCR at .032 C/W so that would be less than one degree difference for 100 watts.

Hope this helps,
Martin

[smee]

Wow, that saves me alot of money then. I was debating on which rad I should get, it was either the PA120.2 or MCR220.
I'm going to go with the MCR220 with two 57CFM in push config, will be running an E2140 overclocked at 2.8-3.0Ghz.

Thanks for asking this question for me Scubar! lol...

P.s. does anybody know when the 9800 VGA's are coming out?

[Scubar]

Interesting read. Looks like the MCR220s should be perfectly fine for my system im going to be building as soon as i can get my hands on the case.

[NaeKuh]

You guys also need to factor how many blocks are going into your system. The pressure drop on a PA is less then a MCR.

Also the space requirements a PA takes is a bit thicker then a MCR.


To be honest, i dont recomend the PA120.2 anymore. You can usually fit a MCR320 with a tad bit more modding where a PA120.2 would fit. The price difference between a PA120.2 an 120.3 is so small, it would be a financial suicide getting a PA120.2 unless you were seriously space limited. And knowing this hobby, You'll regret not getting the PA120.3 a few months later.

Personally also i wouldnt look at the MCR220 unless it was a single block loop as well, or gfx loop.

120x3 class radiators FTW!

[Scubar]

120x3 isnt an option as i want the rads mounted on the back of the Mozart TX and the 120.3 would semi block the lower chamber exhaust fan.

Its only going to be cpu and nb on 1 rad and 1 gpu on the other rad.

[smee]

This is what my loops going to look like:
Res>Pump>Rad>CPU(E2140 @2.8-3.0Ghz w/D-Tec Fuzion))>GPU(8600GTS 512MB w/MCW60-R)>NB(MSW30)>SB(MCW30)

Should I get a triple or dual fan rad for my loop?
I'm not looking for two much performance, just going to be playing a couple of games.

[Nate P.]

This is what my loops going to look like:
Res>Pump>Rad>CPU(E2140 @2.8-3.0Ghz w/D-Tec Fuzion))>GPU(8600GTS 512MB w/MCW60-R)>NB(MSW30)>SB(MCW30)

Should I get a triple or dual fan rad for my loop?
I'm not looking for two much performance, just going to be playing a couple of games.

Triple. Maybe even 2 loops, the NB and SB blocks are pretty restrictive. IMO, the SB block is really unnecessary.

[smee]

Ok, I'll have to do some modding to my case to fit the triple, I'll have to mount the psu on the bottom of my case...
Do you think it would be ok if I had a dual and one single fan rad?
The loop would look like this if I had two rads:
Res>Pump>2fanRad>CPU>NB>1fanRad>GPU>SB

I don't really want to do two loops due to space and cost of another pump.
I'm trying to keep the project under $800.

Sorry Scubar, I know this is your thread...

[Fujimitsu]

Triple. Maybe even 2 loops, the NB and SB blocks are pretty restrictive. IMO, the SB block is really unnecessary.

He should be able to get by just fine with a 2x120m, as long as it's got decent airflow. None of those components put out that much heat. I'd agree on the SB, maybe even think about ditching the NB block, opt for $5-10 copper heatsinks w/ little fans.

[smee]

Hhmmm...
How many degrees difference on the cpu would I see between the triple and the dual fan rad with my loop?

[PeppeX]

i bought a PA120.2 with a shroud in Aus for $100 so i reckon that was a bargain. It performs as good as a MCR320 and it fits perfectly in my case

[Fujimitsu]

Hhmmm...
How many degrees difference on the cpu would I see between the triple and the dual fan rad with my loop?

If I'm wrong someone correct me, but I don't think you'll notice much difference at all.

None of your components put out THAT muc heat so the 2x120 is enough to dissipate the heat from all of it, so adding more rad space isn't going to do much. It would allow you to add more blocks or hotter components later, and also allow you to slow down your fans, but it won't make your temps lower.

[smee]

Sounds good, I'll be ordering an MCR220 soon.
Thanks for all your help guys!

[NaeKuh]

i bought a PA120.2 with a shroud in Aus for $100 so i reckon that was a bargain. It performs as good as a MCR320 and it fits perfectly in my case

your so wrong on so many levels on this statement.

The MCR320 will beat a PA120.2

There has been TONS of review of this, and a Error and Omission report by radical himself when he said it would compare to a MCR320.

Sorry, but a MCR320 is ahead of the PA120.2 if both are using the same fans. The only way a PA120.2 will match a MCR320 is if they were using really slow spinning fans like a 700RPM fan. Then you'll see the true benifit of a Thermochill.


Also you guys, Thermochill's are nice, but there NOT The best. Thermochill's are optimized for low spin fans, and low flow reduction. But a BlackICE GTX with 3 Panflos on high would easily out pace a PA series.
[This statement people dont seem to understand... they automatically think radiators are like waterblocks. ]

Now how important is a radiator... The radiator is the main source of heat transport in your system. Each radiator has a set stress point meaning, if you get close to or exceed, the cooling and efficiency of the unit is severly hindered. The MCR220 has a stress point of near 300-350W. That mean you drop a Quadcore on that, you used up 200W approx out of the 350. If you get near the 300W mark, your temps will suck.

The MCR320 has a stress point of around 400-450 think 100-150W / 120mm. So the MCR320 will give you tons of work room if your running multi block setups.


Now im going to break a common confusion amungst people with radiators.


Assume your system is running 350W of heat. 180W from the CPU, and 170W from the GPU. Assume your running a 8800GTX.

350W on a 350W radiator = bad temps. You've should of just stayed on air.

350W on a 450W radiator = your getting decient temps for water.


Now different scenario. Assume its a CPU only loop with 170W.

170W heat source on a 300W radiator = good... means its nowhere near stessed.

170W heat source on a 450W radiator = great... however you'll only see 1-2C difference from the top config. This is because the great rules of thermodynamics. Coolant temps can never go below ambients unless energy is put into the system.


Theres a lot more math involved, but i dont want to flood this page with equations and proofs. If Marci would pop in and give us a consolidated version, much is apreciated.


If you can seriously think of ways to fit the MCR320 which is only 15 dollars more then a MCR220, the 320 is a MUCH better investment in both performance and price.



IF you ask me what i have:

Thermochill PA120.3 x 2
Thermochill PA120.2
Thermochill PA160
Swiftech MCR320 x 2
Swiftech MCR220 x 2
Swiftech MCR120-RES <---- i had to buy it and try it out. DONT LEAN SIDEWAYS!!!
BlackICE 120x1 GTS 120x3 GTX 120x3 GTS


Ive gone through tons of radiators. You need to match the radiator for your need. If you dont care about noise, and you want the best spanking performance, a GTX on high CFM fans will beat a TC. If you want the best performance /budget nothing beats an MCR series. If your tight on space and are very limited the GTS series usually fits where all the others wont.

TC = low noise, high performance systems.
HWLabs GTX = loud noise, high performance systems
HWlabs GTS = Tight spaces thin radiator
Swiftech MCR Series = think of like an accord. Can fit in multi applications because its right smack in the middle.

Its application people. People crack me up when they piece parts out without knowing what its main forte is.

[PeppeX]

On the thermochill site it shows it is only 0.1-0.2 delta of the MCR320.

http://www.thermochill.com/pa1202.php

[systemviper]

my 2c is get the swiftech 120.3 if at all possible, you won't have to look back.. you can always use the extra cooling headroom.

[NaeKuh]

On the thermochill site it shows it is only 0.1-0.2 delta of the MCR320.

http://www.thermochill.com/pa1202.php

That is radical's test. Last i heard from all the experts, his test was wrong..

Also once again look at this graph and picture. The one done by Bill Adams.




As you can see the MCR220 not 320 is keeping up with the PA120.2

Now everyone knows the MCR320 can outpace the MCR220.

So theres no way something that beats the MCR220 by a little bit, can outpace its larger brother which has an additional 120x1 area of cooling.


Also i trust BillAdams more then Radical. He invented the MCR series.

[PeppeX]

I never said outpace..... I said equal. Anyway i think the PA120.2 will do nicely for my 8800GT and e6600

[NaeKuh]

I never said outpace..... I said equal. Anyway i think the PA120.2 will do nicely for my 8800GT and e6600

That i agree with you on.... However i still recomend a MCR320. Which is cheaper then the PA by 50 dollars, and has greater cooling power.

[PeppeX]

how much heat can the PA120.2 dissipate? Also is there i a way to calculator the amount W of heat cpu or gpu will produce?

[Nate P.]

I'm getting the PA120.2 because I don't have the space requirements for the MCR-320. Shoot me.

[smee]

I'm getting the PA120.2 because I don't have the space requirements for the MCR-320. Shoot me.

Bang.