EcoBoost > Japan

[trance565]

1980's Honda's were great - you still see a fair few Civics and CRX's rolling around - a little rust, but great workhorses....

F-350? Thats not a car :p

<-- And the surname is clearly spelled

i see 94-97 cobras going for 5-10k all the time.

in america, we dont pay much for cars taht are slow and get lots of milage. we pay for cars that are fast, eat fuel, and keep us happy.

[onewingedangel]

Ford will never beat honda for small, fuel efficient cars. Period. Ever.

So a Ka, Fiesta or Focus doesn't compete with the Honda equivilent? Please

http://www.parkers.co.uk/cars/specs/...del=238&page=3
versus
http://www.parkers.co.uk/cars/specs/...del=291&page=3


http://www.parkers.co.uk/cars/specs/...el=1321&page=3
versus
http://www.parkers.co.uk/cars/specs/...el=1424&page=3

And when the new Ka is launched in a few months it will use the duratec and duratorq engnes instead of the ancient endura.

[Kai Robinson]

The Endura-E was retired back in 2003 :p

They're using the Zetec-Rocam at the moment.

And i suspect the poster of that was referring to the US Ford Market

[situman]

[QUOTE=fhpchris;2727345]No, the 1996-99 M3 in anywhere but the us had 321hp out of a 3.2L using the S50B32, and the E46 M3s came with the S54 made 333/343/360+ hp depending on model and country.

BMW makes 360hp out of a n/a 3.2L production car. Toyota makes nice things, but your sight on things is clearly wrong, BMW made that power over a decade ago.

QUOTE]

Perhaps, however the Lexus engine didn't require it to spin to 8k rpm to achieve that power. And we are talking about cars in US, not anywhere else. What do you think spinning ur engine all the way up the RPM is going to do to fuel economy?


If you want to talk about cars anywhere else, then talk about the world conquering GT-Rs from Nissan, blowing everything away with only "~290HP."

[NickS]

So a Ka, Fiesta or Focus doesn't compete with the Honda equivilent? Please

http://www.parkers.co.uk/cars/specs/...del=238&page=3
versus
http://www.parkers.co.uk/cars/specs/...del=291&page=3


http://www.parkers.co.uk/cars/specs/...el=1321&page=3
versus
http://www.parkers.co.uk/cars/specs/...el=1424&page=3

And when the new Ka is launched in a few months it will use the duratec and duratorq engnes instead of the ancient endura.

fhpchris is talking about the American Ford's. The European ones are better, for some reason.

[fhpchris]

So a Ka, Fiesta or Focus doesn't compete with the Honda equivilent? Please

http://www.parkers.co.uk/cars/specs/...del=238&page=3
versus
http://www.parkers.co.uk/cars/specs/...del=291&page=3


http://www.parkers.co.uk/cars/specs/...el=1321&page=3
versus
http://www.parkers.co.uk/cars/specs/...el=1424&page=3

And when the new Ka is launched in a few months it will use the duratec and duratorq engnes instead of the ancient endura.

Exactly my point, a 1988 honda is about as nice as a brand new Focus, kia, or fiesta.

Ford = cheap, crap. sorry.

A 1995 civic sold in atlanta on craigs list with 930,000 miles on the orig. engine, not rebuilt.

6 focuses could not do that.

Perhaps, however the Lexus engine didn't require it to spin to 8k rpm to achieve that power. And we are talking about cars in US, not anywhere else. What do you think spinning ur engine all the way up the RPM is going to do to fuel economy?


If you want to talk about cars anywhere else, then talk about the world conquering GT-Rs from Nissan, blowing everything away with only "~290HP."

The S50B32 only reved to 7600 rpm and made alot of low end torque for a 3.2 liter, ~240 lb-ft at the wheels.

The GTR ran no faster than a NSX-R, or a newer STI does at the ring, they are great cars!(at the same power no less!)

I personally prefer lighter weight cars, so 3500+ lbs with a stripped interior does not appeal to me.

[NickS]

Exactly my point, a 1988 honda is about as nice as a brand new Focus, kia, or fiesta.

Ford = cheap, crap. sorry.

A 1995 civic sold in atlanta on craigs list with 930,000 miles on the orig. engine, not rebuilt.

6 focuses could not do that.

14 m3's couldn't either, Chris.

[[XC] Lead Head]

Exactly my point, a 1988 honda is about as nice as a brand new Focus, kia, or fiesta.

Ford = cheap, crap. sorry.

A 1995 civic sold in atlanta on craigs list with 930,000 miles on the orig. engine, not rebuilt.

6 focuses could not do that.

A few years ago there was a dodge with 1,000,000 miles on it, and a Volvo or a Saab (i forgot which) as well, and from what I've been reading around, them new Honda was having plenty of trouble with early failures of their CVT transmission.

I have seen fords with 300-400k on them. Just because 1 car got 930k, does not mean they all will. Thats like saying since one dodge truck got 1 million miles, therefore all dodge vehicles will get 1 million miles too!

[Kai Robinson]

See, european market fords are better built....built in Germany - no more cobbling them together in Dagenham (they only make Duratorq diesels now). Better quality control, better quality fit & finish and jesus, we have plastics that are a billionty times better than the stuff you shoehorn into whatever you make!

That and our range of economical and V6 engines is better

[NickS]

A few years ago there was a dodge with 1,000,000 miles on it, and a Volvo or a Saab (i forgot which) as well, and from what I've been reading around, them new Honda was having plenty of trouble with early failures of their CVT transmission.

I have seen fords with 300-400k on them. Just because 1 car got 930k, does not mean they all will. Thats like saying since one dodge truck got 1 million miles, therefore all dodge vehicles will get 1 million miles too!

Yep. Never mind chris, he just hates american cars period, especially Ford. I've personally witnessed fords running strong after 150k ez with minimal maintenance.

[jaguarking11]

pssing contest I see.

Well you have the corvair that had a factory turbocharger in the 60's. The turbo 2.3L in the svo in the 80's. I belive there were turbo pintos in the 70's.

And the whole argument about plastics being better in europe is utter garbage. Plastic is plastic no matter how you slice it, why not actualy use natural material?

If you want to talk about reliability then you are wrong too, all major manufacturers especially big ones will make big mistakes, I will never forget about my buddys lexus. He replaced the head twice and had to replace the entire engine before he sold it. Apparently it was a known oil sludge issue with the v6 having tiny oil passage ways. Lexus HQ told him to take a hike since it was a small number produced.

As for japan developing all the new tech, please don't be so ignorant. DOHC and variable valve timing has been around way before japan even made engines, let alone cars. Some of their engines they produce are direct rip off's of older american engines. The chevy wega had a dohc computer controlled engine in the early 70's. Variable valve timing was on old cadillacs in the mid 30's. The new larger displacement engines that are coming out of japan have either frech roots such as the new gtr motor, or american roots. The dohc v8 used in early lexus cars was bought from cadillac, it was a northstar engine, it won wards best multiple times. The new 5.7L nissan engine is exactly like the ford/chevy 351/350 small block produced in the 60's. Direct injection on gasoline engines is a fiat patent from the late 90's. The laundry list can go on.

oh and @ Kai Robinson
I have both driven and worked on the supra you have, the mk3, I even contemplated buying one. FYI, reliability is crap on those as I am sure you are aware. And if you think that thing handles well then you got another thing coming, its handling caracteristics are tame at best with lots of suspension wobbling, not to mention they are not as stiff as you may think, allot of them have twisted frames with 350hp under hood. I have been watching you rant like most brits do about their wang being too small and such. Quit while you are ahead before someone embaraces you.

Every time I see a thread like this emerge it makes me want to vomit, if you want inovation, buy an audi, if you want brute strength buy american, and if you want to be a idiot loudmouth buy japanese, namely the holy grail of ricerdom, a toyota supra with crank issues.

-Bruno

[jaguarking11]

Yep. Never mind chris, he just hates american cars period, especially Ford. I've personally witnessed fords running strong after 150k ez with minimal maintenance.

I know someone from work that has a 1990 taurus with a honest to goodnes 230k on it, All he does is change the oild every 5k and replace the wires and distributor cap every 3-4years, he even has the original trans fluid. Runs solid although it looks like crap since the paint faded as the car has never been in a garage and the man is a slob. The taurus was not the most reliable car around either. I have seen little escorts do those miles with two sets of plugs and two distributor cap changes.

[NickS]

I know someone from work that has a 1990 taurus with a honest to goodnes 230k on it, All he does is change the oild every 5k and replace the wires and distributor cap every 3-4years, he even has the original trans fluid. Runs solid although it looks like crap since the paint faded as the car has never been in a garage and the man is a slob. The taurus was not the most reliable car around either. I have seen little escorts do those miles with two sets of plugs and two distributor cap changes.

Well it's definitely not the 3.8L Essex then . It's got to have the Vulcan, which is a very reliable and torquey engine for its size. It's noted on wikipedia to hit 300k ez.

My friend has a 98 Taurus with the 3.0L Vulcan. It's got 168,000 on the odometer and the tranny is finally starting to get finicky. A few days ago it was shifting odd, and at the wrong times. The CEL came on too. He pulled into the nearest driveway, shut the car off, turned it back on and drove away just fine.

Fords, just like every other domestic car, can be reliable. Sure there are certain models that aren't, but that's the same for every car company. People like Chris will deny it, but it's true.

About your buddy's Lexus, was that a 90-96ish one? It probably used the same V6 that was in that generation Camry. It was also known to have oil sludge problems.

[Kai Robinson]

Jaguar - i see you have no clue wtf you're talking about - so its you who should be 'embaraced'.

Turbocharged Ford Pinto? Not from the factory there wasn't. The 2.3litre Lima OHC engine debuted in the '75 Pinto which later ended up in the Mustang and the Thunderbird with a turbocharger.

The chevy vega...well lets see, they got in COSWORTH, a british company, to do that DOHC head design for them but the car ultimately failed due to GM's stupid selection of gear ratio's and rear axle, in addition to your retarded emissions regulation. Hardly a shining example you brought up there.

Did i mention also that Jaguar had DOHC engines in the 1940's?

Plastics aren't the same the world over, the US is notorious for building cheap, tacky interiors with all the strength and rigidity of a box of tic-tacs. And yes, i have been in American cars before, from a Ford Taurus to a Chevy Corvette - they're almost as bad as what Citroen put out, but i'd rather have a Citroen interior still.

VVT was first patented by Fiat in the 60's, GM fooled with it in the 70's (dropped it) and it was first introduced on the Alfa Romeo Spyder. Then by Nissan (NVCS). Then by Honda (VTEC). Then Toyota (VVTi/VVTLi). Then BMW. Took Ford & GM until the 21st century to start implementing it.

Crank issues on the supra? None actually, but i'll chalk that upto ignorance. The only issue it has on the reliability front, is the stock headgasket - which was due to Toyota changing the gasket material at the last minute, but not the 56lb/ft torque specification. Most of the Mk3's that run these days in stock trim, have either signs of a blown headgasket (water jacket between cyls 5/6 usually, again due to torque spec) or have just been rebuilt. The only ones that had this problem also, was the MA70, not the GA70 or JZA70.

Handling? Take into consideration that the cars are at least 16 years old, so the rubber bushings wear out and you're supposed to have them replaced. Mine have been, along with installing a set of TEIN HR coilovers, so if you want to get into a pissing contest - then i'll be more than happy to 'embarace' you around the nurburgring.

More than 350hp = twisted frame? Oh dear, what ever have you been smoking? Where exactly are you pulling these statistics from? Your arse?

Lexus have only made cars with V6's (cars, not SUV's, note) since 2004/2005 (2JZ Inline 6 preceeded it - and thats known to be bulletproof), and i doubt very much that the 2GR-FSE will have failed so catastrophically, after it, too won a spot on wards best engine list. The oil passageways on the GR series and the VZ series that preceded it are hardly narrow - i can fit my FINGER down them. So again, you're talking sh1t. Oil sludge is a problem for any engine - including my 1986 Ford Sierra XR4x4's 2.8 litre cologne - its caused by....not changing the oil regularly enough. The service interval for oil changes is 5000 miles. I do it every 4000 and have done ever since i was old enough to own my own car. Are you sure your 'friend' didnt fill it up with something stupid like 20w50? Has he EVER had the oil changed?

Lexus also, would not treat a customer like that, they're a premier brand, and bad publicity for them would be business suicide, so, once again, talking out of your ever expanding rectum.

The Lexus V8 you're so eager to dismiss, has NOTHING to do with the northstar whatsoever. Designed from scratch and introduced in 1989 (Lexus LS400). The 1UZ-FE is an all-alloy engine (as is the 3UZ-FE, but the 2UZ-FE uses a cast iron block). The northstar started production in 1991, TWO YEARS LATER. So again, fact check might be needed.

Direct Injection being a Fiat thing? WRONG AGAIN!

1955 Mercedes Benz 300SL was the first car with that. (IanY can tell you more)

Ford developed a prototype for direct injection in the 70's but then abandoned it. Who was it that reintroduced the concept to the mainstream again? Mitsubishi, with the 4G93 powered Galant in 1996.

Finally, the Nissan 5.7 you're talking about doesn't exist. Theres a 5.6 litre V8 (VK Series), which again, was a totally new design introduced in 2002. Incidentally its also a DOHC engine, not an OHV one, and was designed that way.

So there you go - all your rediculous statements rubbished with facts, easily checkable from...mmm....anywhere

Next time you post - you might want to think about a few things: Spelling, Punctuation, Grammar....oh and a little thing called 'The Truth'.

[jaguarking11]

oh dear me, the brit is on a pissathon. Why oh why do I have a brit complaning and trashtalking.

Dude I don't blame you, its a full known fact that the only thing that can shut up a brit is a german, there I must quit.

Please grow some balls and act like a man, be respectful as well as a little studious, but then again its not in your nature. to the rest of the world.

it makes me want to and then vomit everytime I see a brit talk out of his ass, but then again thats what your known for.

As for the supra twisting chasis @ 350hp you may laugh, but it hapened, to the point where the doors didnt shut properly. There isnt a single roach coach supra in these parts selling with more than 90k on the clock, for good reason too, their internals suck balls. Not to mention if you go the turbo version the bearings kick out every 5k. I know I had to rebuild the turbo on one multiple times for my proffessor, he had an 89 with 17k on the clock and he reported the dealer replacing the turbocharger twice. Another known fact, the first toyota turbo came in 1980 so that years of turbocharing experince is still at least 20 years off what americans have been doing.

IN any case if the supra was so great then why did the discontinue it? All the same e, cars with no souls with loudmouths driving them.

[trance565]

The Pinto Pangra is a modified sporting Pinto produced in limited numbers by a Ford dealer, Huntington Ford in Arcadia, California. Approximately 55 were sold during 1973 and (to a limited degree) 1974, and in addition the components were sold in kit form. A Pangra cost approximately $5,000.

The most visible modification was a slanted fiberglass nose with pop-up headlights. Internally, the stock 2 liter engine was fitted with an AK Miller turbocharger; a "Can-Am" suspension package with Koni dampers lowered the car and improved the handling; aluminum wheels with wider tires were fitted, as were Recaro seats, a revised dash with a new center console, full instrumentation, and a digital tachometer.

fyi, there was a turbo pinto, limited models, but none the less, there was a turbo pinto.

supra's had nice motors, but they also had one of the most retarded flaws, which i dont get HOW it happens, anything over 400whp, will shatter the crank pulley. i've never heard of any car having a pulley shatter, no matter the circumstances, besides the supra. which is absolutely retarded, yes it's cheap to do, but it shouldnt have to be done.

and i've known several supras that have bent frames and whatnot from having too much power. it's cuz the kids who drive them are to ignorant to understand that you need subframe connectors, and other components to keep the body from torquing. although i have met a few that arent so stupid.

[Kai Robinson]

The whole "bent frames" are all horsesh1t. Plenty of people over on SM are running in excess of 450rwhp and they suffer NO ill effects like you're describing.

Crank pulley is something you should upgrade as a matter of course for a lightweight ATI damper, to keep the stock one would be retarded.

You have a problem with me being british, or is it just you feel the need to lash out because you got caught with your pants down telling a load of lies?

The internals dont 'suck balls'. The bearings also DONT dissolve after 5000 miles as you put it. Post proof or retract. The turbo version and the N/A version have very few differences between them, which are (and i shall enlighten you), piston oil squirters and lower compression ratio. Those are the ONLY internal differences. The oil pump, water pump, cranks, rods, bearings, thrust washers are all EXACTLY THE SAME.

Also there are more than 50 people on SM that can easily placate you with regards to their mileage being well over 90k, mines over 90k as it is, and its only just hit its first rebuild. Go on. I dare you - go and sign up, read the information for yourself. It's freely available - you dont even need an account: www.supramania.com

Turbo's need to be properly balanced, its not something you can just do at home and if you've been rebuilding them at home for a 'proffessor', whatever that is, no wonder you've had to do it multiple times. Are you using a proper balancing machine @ 250,000rpm?

The supra went from 1979 to 2002 (Mk1/2/3/4)- thats a pretty long lifespan. After which point, its being replaced by something under the lexus brand - the IS-F.

*Post edited for insulting other member(s) with inappropriate language and bypassing the swear filter*

[[XC] Lead Head]

Direct Injection being a Fiat thing? WRONG AGAIN!

1955 Mercedes Benz 300SL was the first car with that. (IanY can tell you more)

Ford developed a prototype for direct injection in the 70's but then abandoned it. Who was it that reintroduced the concept to the mainstream again? Mitsubishi, with the 4G93 powered Galant in 1996.

The only thing I can find on the 300 SL is that it has mechanical fuel injection that injected fuel right at the intake valves, Porsche also had mechanical fuel injection around the same time, and what do you mean by it was re introduced in 1995? My 87 Ford Ranger 2.9 has Multi-port bank fire fuel injection, and 86 mustangs had sequential fire multi port fuel injection.

[Kai Robinson]

Fuel injection and Gasoline Direct Injection aren't the same thing - see here for more details:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_direct_injection

[[XC] Lead Head]

I know the differences, but I wasn't sure which one you meant. Anyways, looks like every manufacturer but Mercedes and Mitsubishi didn't introduce the technology until the 21 st century.

[Kai Robinson]

Not what i was referring to - the original bell end said it was a fiat patent from the 90's - which was wrong, hence bringing up the 300SL. Also the BS posts about the Lexus V8 being related to the Northstar, the VVT being used on Cadillacs etc had to be corrected just as much.

His posts were so full of factual errors, i corrected them, that however did not deter him from being a basement dwelling assgoblin and start throwing insults around when they were neither justified or welcome.

When someone talks sh1t to me, i fight back, and in this case, i fought back against his string of verbal diarroeah and vociferous attitude with facts. It's plainly obvious this fool has no clue how engines actually work, least of all engines on cars he's never owned, or probably even seen up close. Hence the lack of a reply thus far.

Oh and btw - everyone on SM is laughing at jaguarkings stupidity and ignorance: http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63496

The rest of you are free to continue on the original course without fear of an idiocy spill in aisle 5, i think i've mopped it up comprehensively enough...

[Soulburner]

No, I have.

Look, no matter what the debate is, personal attacks are absolutely NOT tolerated on this forum. Keep it civil.

I have handed out two infractions in this thread already...let's not earn any more

[onewingedangel]

I assume he got the fiat thing from them pioneering the commonrail diesel.


Why do all these threads have to become pissong contests? This manufacturer against this one, one persons perspective against anothers.Isn't there room to discuss and debate like grown ups?

The collective pool of knowledge here is pretty good, its a shame people sometimes want to use their snippits in a competitive manner rather than collaborative.

I know my theory and general car knowledge pretty well, but when it comes to history or practical knowledge there are loads of members here who are far more informed. If I gave an answer and was proved wrong I would take it on board and learn something new. Nothing embarrassing about being ignorant if your willing to learn. No ones infallable, we can all learn from each other.

[Vapor]

Also....bypassing the swear filter is against the rules....I see a lot of the s-word with nothing but a minor alteration

Just not allowed....the swear filter is in place for a reason and frankly, swearing wasn't even 'necessary.' It was all swearing on the offensive and toward a member here.

Further infractions will be handed out momentarily, working my way through the thread. Enough infractions and a ban will issued as well.

[jaguarking11]

Well thanks for the infraction if anyone was wondering.

I guess I let out too much steam. I just feel that I am tired of all the bashing going on here. And I stand correct it. Fiat does not hold the patent for direct injection in gasoline engines, it holds a patent on diesel engines.


Thats the end of this argument from me. I am sick and tired of loudmouths and see allot of bs that I quite frankly find it insulting to be on the same genome as some of the posters here.

In referance to the guy with the old supra, I do own a car, actualy a new one. Its my pride and joy that I have worked hard for since HS. I have a black 07gt mustang. With soon to be supercharged engine.