MachII 410 mod

[chilly1]

I am converting a MachII to R410 for xtremecold operation. shooting for -65C loaded may get colder... Here are the first set of build pics.

The box



The new condenser



The position of the components

:note the position of the compressor



Comparison of the condensers and the reformed schroud

:new coil is 3/4 inch taller than original



Coil mount and cut in fan shroud for compressor discharge

:note the extra set of holes for compressor mounting



Compressor mounted



Tubing complete and charged



Temps with 20% R410 are stable at 150W for 5 hours at -52C



: The clearances were very tight I test fired the fans and other than a little increase in noise the fan operates fine. As you can also see the controller will need to be relocated, and the LEDs are not going to show through the back unless I remove thenm and run extra wires.



Stay tuned more to follow I will edit the first post with more pics.info

[HawainPanda]

oh neat!...wait...is 410 hard to come by?...cus..then why haven't i heard about it? other than from p/t tables, why not r508(-120C?)?

chilly1, can u tell me how to read this table? thx

P/T chart

eidt chilly1 corrected URL

[chilly1]

R508 needs more of a compression ratio than a single compressor can do. It is a second stage gas and costs over 100 per ppound where R410 is the same price as R507 and with the proper size condenser it can work with a single compressor.

[JSU]

Nice job! I have a few condensors like that. I was going to abandon them because I thought they wouldnt work due to the way the liquid flows........... Guess I was wrong.

[HawainPanda]

okey...dang it..im gonna ignore that pt table for now...

[Ssilencer]

I thought that the compressor and a single condenser way couldnt handle it, I'm looking forward to see the complete proyect, if it didnt blow

[chilly1]

Originally posted by JSU
Nice job! I have a few condensors like that. I was going to abandon them because I thought they wouldnt work due to the way the liquid flows........... Guess I was wrong.

The last loop is 1 up there is no problem with this as the condenser will have liquid at that point enough of the time to prevent oil pooling. These condensers are piped from top to botom with the last loop rising up one.

[gkiing]

Nice mod, -65 on a single stage would be sweet. I've got the same condenser , but I have to use r22 or r290.

[masterofpuppets]

Looks good.

/me subscribes to the thread.

[floshey]

What compressor are the Mach2 using?

[bh2k]

A danfoss.

[floshey]

Originally posted by bh2k
A danfoss.

hehe i know that, but i want to know the model number. Something in my head says NL11F, is that correct?
No wait NL11F is the 50Hz version, and you are using the 60hz version, right ?

[masterofpuppets]

On their site, they dont have the 11 version in 60hz, but they have the NL10MF. So presumably NL11MF?

EDIT: I was looking in the 240v section. In the 115v section they have one called NF11FX.

[kayl]

ppl use to say that is was hard to get these compressor to start with r507, need the exact amount or it wont start, chilly did that.
i always though that r410 was a second stage refrigerant, or a blend was requird to reduce the pressure for single stage.
what sorta high stage presssure do think you will see
well done

[chilly1]

Probably the same as 507 if I can swing it..

[Twynn]

Originally posted by masterofpuppets
On their site, they dont have the 11 version in 60hz, but they have the NL10MF. So presumably NL11MF?

EDIT: I was looking in the 240v section. In the 115v section they have one called NF11FX.

In the 220-240V versions they use the NL11F, in the 115V versions they use the NF9FX.
The difference in frequency (50Hz vs 60Hz) compensates the difference in displacement.

Originally posted by kayl
ppl use to say that is was hard to get these compressor to start with r507, need the exact amount or it wont start, chilly did that.
i always though that r410 was a second stage refrigerant, or a blend was requird to reduce the pressure for single stage.

R410a is used a lot in single stage systems. A lot of airconditioning systems use it. But yes, condensing pressures are higher, and I can imagine that these pressures give that poor R134a compressor a hard time in starting up

If you run into startup troubles, maybe you can try adding a run-capacitor to the system?

[chilly1]

Actually starting troubles will only occur if the system pressure is higher than the compressor is designed for I intend to keep the compressor with in ampere, pressure, and temperature specifications. This is why we have a larger condenser and the capillary tubing will also be adjusted to compensate for the higher pressures, It's all in the differential pressure caused by the metering device. I can also install a suction pressure regulator to limit the start up and pull down pressure. Like set it at 3 psi for pull down.

[chilly1]

Have to mount the controller over the condenser though but the good news is it fits... I ended up with a blend of 20% R410 and 80% R 507 to get temps around -52 under load. I am going to try some other gasses now..... stay tuned...

[HawainPanda]

oh neat..-52, oh yeah, i see alot of start capacitors on condensing units(although they're all r134 units) wat do they do?

[chilly1]

A start cap provides the tourque fto spin the compressor up to speed With a cap the current is 90 degrees out of phase with the voltage and there are another set of windinge in the compressor this provides a rotating magnetic field that pushes the motor with more force. There is also a relay that after a milisecond pulls the cap offline.

[HawainPanda]

oh, sorta like an extra boost...kk, thx!

[oc_nightmare]

nice nice chilly
are u going to try it with a 100% r410 ratio? what condensing pressures are u getting now?

/me subscribes this thread too

[BMORIN]

Waiting for updates...that would be crazy if you can pull this off. -65c loaded!!!! Near cascade hold temps on a single phase! If you can get this to work, you'll be in 24/7 demand to mod every prommy on this forum, lol.

[chilly1]

13 more degrees.....just 13 more degrees....

100% R410 would require an evap redesign and a different metering system and probably an oil seperator.

[cowpuppy]

I guess I need to be a part of this thread to keep up to date on what is happening with my Mach2.

Chilly you are doing some really nice work, can't wait to see some results with the propane mix.

After this is completed Chilly will be modding my other Mach2 for a Vid card cooler.