Best performing SSD out there nowadays for Mac Mini?

[jalyst]

I've been so "out of the loop" for such a long time when it comes to the best performing SSD's, hoping folks here can help.
I'm quite sure my late 09' Mac Mini (Macmini1,3) only supports SATAII (AKA SATA 3G), but I need to double-check that.

With that in mind, I was just about to order this in either 120GB or 240GB capacity:
http://eshop.macsales.com/shop/inter...3G_Solid_State
But then I realised, why not spend a little time seeing if there's in-fact better performing options at those capacities.
OWC claims their drives are "certified" for Mac's, but surely folks have little trouble using uncertified ones most of the time.

I know the Sandforce controller was "hot " years ago, but I don't know if it or something else is nowadays.
Plus other elements of the SSD must be factored-in, + I'm not even sure exactly* what the latest 3G OWC SSD's use!
Years ago there was a very knowledgeable community of SSD's users here, pioneers/bleeding-edge users in-fact, hoping that's still true.

Any advice/input greatly appreciated!
*except that they're supposedly still using sandforce controllers

[zanzabar]

the only drives that work on it are sandforce, the kingston v300 works in most of them that take the 2.5"

[jalyst]

the only drives that work on it are sandforce, the kingston v300 works in most of them that take the 2.5"

(1)
Are you sure about that? Source/proof?
Why only Sandforce & Kingston V300?

(2)
What controller does the latter use?

Proceeding on that basis...

(3)
Between the Kingston V300 & the Mercury Electra 3G
Which IYO is the better performing option & why?

I'm sure my Mac's SATAII (although I'm not yet 100% certain), hence the only OWC option is the Electra 3G.

Thank-you.

*EDIT*
iFixit seems to offer Sandisk, so there's at least one other option:
http://www.ifixit.com/Store/Mac/128-...rive/IF107-123
http://www.ifixit.com/Store/Mac/256-...rive/IF107-124
http://www.ifixit.com/Store/Mac/512-...rive/IF107-125
*EDIT* 2
Actually it's 6G, so it must be for the newer Mini's, & may be wasted on my Mac's 3G interface?
*EDIT* 3
Nope, it's actually available for my model Mac Mini too, so I guess it must be fine to use it.

[zanzabar]

1) any sandforce drive with standard firmware will work, you can get a corsair force, kingston v300, sandisk, pny, patriot, just about all of them that are not crucial or samsung. i replace drives all the time in them and always get the v300 when i do a mac since it is cheap and you can get them local (any staples or best buy will have them so in a pinch they are easy to get.)

2) all of them are sandforce, the sata II or III will work, it is not the controller that is the problem apple has a broken EUFI that they wont fix as they only support 1st party parts and they only sell sandforce stuff.

3) it does not matter they are all about the same

[jalyst]

1)
So Sandforce controllers dominate most SSD's nowadays, & Crucial/Samsung are the only SSD's that don't use their controller?
I'm not in North America, I'm in Australasia...

2)
All of the Kingston SSD's are Sandforce?

3)
Can you be more specific about how/why Apple has a "broken" UEFI, that only supports 1st party parts, which are only Sandforce?
You say this means that only SSD's using standard Sandforce fw work, what is "standard", & why only standard Sandforce?

3)
Even between just Sandforce-based drives, surely there can be big differences in performance (& other metrics)?
(e.g. one may use an older controller, or less opitmised fw, or different NAND etc)

4)
One of my main concerns is whether or not it'd be silly to get a 6G SSD, given that my Mac's interface is 3G (YTBFD)?
In many scenarios even a 6G drive wouldn't saturate it's interface (at least not in a noticeable way), but there'd be specific ones where it could easily.

[zanzabar]

1) sandforce is the cheapest controller, and is in most drives

2) no, all of their current line up is and they tell you in the spec sheet

3) they are apple so they only support 1st party and no mods. there was a bug in the EUFI (it is like a bios) and they wont fix it since they dont support anything but sandforce ATM. OCZ had purchased them (sandforce), and started selling drives with custom firmware that performed better and licensed that to other companies as well (like the corsair force GT and GS)

4) the burst speed is the only thing capped by the interface, and it does not matter. the small and mid IO can only push about 200MB/s in a high end drive, and you cannot run a high end drive so it will not matter at all. with what you can use they are essentially all the same performance. i know that the v300 works so that is what i am going to recommend but the sandisk drive is the same.

[jalyst]

1)
What are the other major controllers in the consumer/enthusiast space?
(performance & budget oriented, leave out the real "enterprisey" stuff if you want)

2)
Okay, just their current line-up, understood...

3)
The bug's related to better support for non-standard Sandforce fw, & non-Sandforce controllers?
Any communities trying to add/improve/hack support into UEFI Macs? (unofficially & unsupported by Apple of course)
Come to think of it, my rMBP's Samsung*, so they must support more than Sandforce, at least for models other than the Mini.
Yeah what happened there, OCZ is dead right? Doesn't Toshiba own them now, was all the Sandforce IP included in that deal?
Any companies still selling more "performance oriented" (i.e. custom) Sandforce controllers/fw?

4)

the burst speed is the only thing capped by the interface, and it does not matter.

Why is that? Only used heavily in server environments etc?

the small and mid IO can only push about 200MB/s in a high end drive, and you cannot run a high end drive

200MB/s, that's still within the limits of SATA II which is 300MB/s.
So all the drives that are currently the best performers, don't use Sandforce standard/custom? What's their main components?

with what you can use they are essentially all the same performance

So, capacity being equal, all Sandforce SSD's with standard fw (which are the only ones usable by Macs) are exactly the same?
Are there not some that use different NAND or controller revs, & hence perform differently or have different reliability?

Sorry for the million & one Qns, I'll tone it right down once all the points above are addressed by your next response.
Thanks again for your time, it's very much appreciated...

Cheers!
*840/840_Pro OTTOMH

[zanzabar]

EUFI are encrypted and do not work like a bios, you cannot just mess with them as there are no public tools to do anything but change the add on roms (apple does not use those ether so nothing you can do.)

in the end just dont buy an OCZ, and get whatever is cheap with a sandfornce. there are some faster models around from when sandforce was high end, but you are not going to get much of any change. OSX really likes to cashe things, so just get a kingston or sandisk then spend what you would have to get a higher end drive that might not work on more ram.

[jalyst]

I don't suppose you can directly address each point & it's sub-points, that'd make things much clearer.
Hopefully that's cool with you, no rush as-to-when exactly you respond...
If it's done within the next 24hrs that'd be hugely appreciated, but that's entirely up to you.

I'm not just researching SSD's for my Mini, I'm due for SSD upgrades elsewhere soon.
I can formulate a new post which clearly highlights the points you missed if that helps?
N.B. I have the max. ram that this Mini supports, 2x 4GB PC8500, got it ~2yrs ago (only recently put it in!)

Thank-you.

[jalyst]

I've highlighted the remaining points below:

1)
What are the other major controllers in the consumer/enthusiast space?
(performance & budget oriented, leave out the real "enterprisey" stuff if you want)

2)
Okay, just their current line-up, understood...

3)
The bug's related to better support for non-standard Sandforce fw, & non-Sandforce controllers?
Any communities trying to add/improve/hack support into UEFI Macs? (unofficially & unsupported by Apple of course)
Come to think of it, my rMBP's Samsung*, so they must support more than Sandforce, at least for models other than the Mini.
Yeah what happened there, OCZ is dead right? Doesn't Toshiba own them now, was all the Sandforce IP included in that deal?
Any companies still selling more "performance oriented" (i.e. custom) Sandforce controllers/fw?

4)

the burst speed is the only thing capped by the interface, and it does not matter.

Why is that? Only used heavily in server environments etc?

the small and mid IO can only push about 200MB/s in a high end drive, and you cannot run a high end drive

200MB/s, that's still within the limits of SATA II which is 300MB/s.
So all the drives that are currently the best performers, don't use Sandforce standard/custom? What's their main components?

with what you can use they are essentially all the same performance

So, capacity being equal, all Sandforce SSD's with standard fw (which are the only ones usable by Macs) are exactly the same?
Are there not some that use different NAND or controller revs, & hence perform differently or have different reliability?

Sorry for the million & one Qns, I'll tone it right down once all the points above are addressed by your next response.
Thanks again for your time, it's very much appreciated...

Cheers!
*840/840_Pro OTTOMH

[jalyst]

Weird, this site seems to contradict much of what you've claimed.*
Then again, it seems to be mostly an advertising site for Amazon.

*only SSD's usable by Macs are Sandforce-based, & not just any Sandforce SSD, only Sandforce drives that use standard fw

[zanzabar]

Weird, this site seems to contradict much of what you've claimed.*
Then again, it seems to be mostly an advertising site for Amazon.

do what you want, not all drives work in all macs, and the thing is so slow and the drives are so close you would never notice. it is not hard just buy the ing snadforce drive that is the cheapest from a name brand.

[jalyst]

I've already taken your points specific to deciding on a SSD for my Mac on-board (gratefully I might add), & placed an order for a cheap-ish Sandforce SSD.
You seem to be under the misconception that I'm trying to get the most optimal, "uber l337", SSD for my late 09" Mac Mini...
The points I highlighted don't relate to my considerations for a Mac SSD, they're more general or for upgrades coming later, which is why I highlighted them.

[jalyst]

Notes:

My Mac knowledge is sorely limited, i'll have to take on face value that only standard firmware sandforce drives will work. I always use Crucial, Toshiba or Samsung SSDs and do not like the sandforce controllers (a bias leftover from the very early models that suffered data loss and other issues).
Don't get carried away looking at SSD performance figures. My first SSD was a G.Skill Falcon 64gb, the very first generation of desktop SSD's. I still cannot tell the difference between performance on this drive and my 128gb Crucial C300 which benchmarks at over 5 times the speed. Its like comparing going 300kph to going 310kph - you just cant tell.
With that in mind get the largest capacity cheapest drive you can find that supports the TRIM function (nearly everything does these days). I would have thought you could choose any drive, sata 2 or 3, but cant promise that as again I don't know much about Macs at all.
If you can find new but old stock of the corsair or ocz second generation sandforce drives that could be a cheap option. Failing that just stick with the Kingston V300 , its among the cheapest of SSDs anyway and has a good warranty (if you buy retail) and TRIM support.
I have a colleague here at work who is handy with Macs so will ask him today and let him know what he gets back to me with.

Well that was fast, my mate got back to me already .
He said (and take this at face value as im only passing on info) that any SSD will work, but only Sandforce SSD's with stock firmware will enable TRIM on the drive without a hack. That's where this whole only Sandforce drives are compatible thing comes from. He said he has personally used a Samsung 840 pro in his MacBook air and a Crucial in his recently sold mac mini ('11 model).
Here's a link for enabling TRIM on any SSD/Mac combination : http://www.markc.me.uk/MarkC/Blog/En...r_any_SSD.html
As regards which SSD to choose - the 100% safe bet is still to get a Kingston V300. Otherwise Intel 520, Samsung 840 series, anything by Crucial or Toshiba are all solid reliable performers on Mac's according to what google and my mate tells me.

[Utnorris]

I can tell you if Zanzabar says to use a Sandforce based drive, then that's what I would go with. I don't know jack about Macs, but if you want to play it safe, then buy one from the Apple store. Personally, I would do just like he said and buy the cheapest SSD based on Sandforce since that is what appears to work in Macs. One thing I have learned about SSD's, unless you are benching, you can't tell the difference between 200Mbs versus 500Mbs. I still have a 80Gb Intel first gen in my laptop that is 5+ years old and it still seems snappy. I have tried Uber fast SSD's in RAID configs and unless I did a benchmark, couldn't tell the difference between them and my first gen drives. But that's just me.

[jalyst]

Thanks UtNorris for your thoughts,
I've since posted/read much more widely & there's many who've had completely different assertions to the ones made here.
As one brief e.g: many suggested staying well away from Sandforce-based, especially for Macs/Macbooks of my gen.

Placed an order on Amazon for the Extreme II, be mighty annoyed if it doesn't work but there's a dearth of info anywhere.
Called Sandisk & they can't help as their SSD experts are only available from 8am-2pm AEST, supposedly they'll call tomorrow or maybe later today.
At least Amazon usually has a pretty generous return policy, even for us Aussies...
When it comes to SATA III, the Extreme II's at (or very near) the top overall performance-wise, despite that price is still very decent.
It's overkill for ~90% of usage on that machine, but that machine will be sold this year & the drive salvaged.
The other thing that worries me is that it uses an odd form-factor, it's quite a bit smaller than standard 2.5" & even with the spacer it's loose in some Macs/MacBooks.
But my machine's not a MacBook so it's not like it's being moved around much, if at all...

[jalyst]

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthre...3#post18807763
And...
http://www.anandtech.com/show/7763/a...er-micron-nand

Also...

I installed an Extreme II & despite my fears* the SATA II controller hasn't handshaked to 1.5G, it's connected @3G & I'm noticing a BIG difference.

Can anyone recommend some excellent SSD analysis/diag. & benchmark sw for OS X & Windows? (I'll be installing the latter on the same machine soon)
Once Windows is installed, I'll install the drive's management software, which looks quite interesting...

Cheers!
*& contrary to Sandisk's claims

[Vinas]

Hi,

The easiest SSD bench IMHO is AS SSD. http://alex-is.de/PHP/fusion/downloa...?download_id=9

You could get more in depth with IOmeter but AS SSD is generally accepted as a universal SSD bench with a wide array of results out there to compare against...

[jalyst]

Hi,

The easiest SSD bench IMHO is AS SSD. http://alex-is.de/PHP/fusion/downloa...?download_id=9

You could get more in depth with IOmeter but AS SSD is generally accepted as a universal SSD bench with a wide array of results out there to compare against...

Windows only? Regardless, thank-you kind sir!
I've found some decent options for OSX, but always figured there'd be more good options for Windows.

[felix_w]

For mac i know AJA System Test link and Blackmagic Design's Disk Test link

Although not so detailed as AS-SSD, you can have a clue of your ssd's performance


EDIT: I believe i have also seen somewhere a bench called quickbench or something, it was like HDTune if i recall correctly...

[jalyst]

For mac i know AJA System Test link and Blackmagic Design's Disk Test link
Although not so detailed as AS-SSD, you can have a clue of your ssd's performance
EDIT: I believe i have also seen somewhere a bench called quickbench or something, it was like HDTune if i recall correctly...

Thanks buddy, I wasn't aware of "System Test", but I'd already found "Disk Test".
Regarding "QuickBench", yes I believe this is what you meant: http://www.speedtools.com/QuickBench.html
It actually looks pretty decent too...

Thanks again!