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Thread: 3770k IHS Removals - CPU temp dropped from 79C to 71C

  1. #276
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    Introduction
    Feeling somewhat curious about the reports that inferior TIM ships from the factory inside IB chips, I found myself taking my new 3770K out of the safety of its socket this afternoon and on to my desk where it went under the knife. About 15 min later, I finalized the divorce of its IHS and its PCB. It was surprisingly simple to do; a standard razor blade (0.009") and a little bit of patience was all that was required. After cleanup and application of fresh TIM, I sought to put a nice story together for you readers covering how to do procedure yourself and sharing my results and the methods used to arrive at them.

    Removing the IHS from an i7-3770K
    Maintain a level blade and gently insert it between the green part of the chip (PCB), and the silver part (IHS). I found it best to start on a corner. From what I've read, care needs to be taken not to scrap the PCB, as key parts of the chip reside very close to the surface. Slowly and gently, rock the blade between the two until it penetrates. Then slide it around the perimeter. See the pics to visualize the die so you don't push the blade in too far. The IHS will come off easily once you have completed severing the glue which is removed with gentle scraping with credit card or finger nails; isopropyl alcohol doesn't help much. When finished cleaning up both pieces, apply TIM to the die, place it back in the MB, and gently place the IHS on it. Lock it into place in the MB with the mounting bracket that will hold the IHS to the chip securely thus keeping you from having to glue down the IHS.





    I'm a pretty big fan of Arctic Silver 5 (AS5) and used it both on the die, and on the outside of the IHS. My "factory" configuration had a good 120 h of load/idle cycles on it. As you probably know, AS5 has a breakin period associated with it...200 h according to Arctic Silver Incorporated. You will see this reflected in the data.

    Data Collection and Analysis
    I wanted to generate robust and statically valid conclusions about the efficiency of entire process; results are drawn from a fairly large data set looking at the populations of temperatures and VID values.

    Temps and vcore values were collected via lm-sensors driven by a simple shell script which queried it every 2 sec logging the results to a file.

    Example:
    Code:
    dts,vcc,temp,core0,core1,core2,core3,120mm_rpm,120mm_pwm,140mm_rpm,140mm_pwm
    07-28-12 09:19:31 AM,1.280,66.0,58.0,63.0,65.0,60.0,1285,255,1225,255
    07-28-12 09:19:34 AM,1.272,65.0,57.0,62.0,65.0,61.0,1300,255,1216,255
    07-28-12 09:19:36 AM,1.272,64.0,59.0,63.0,66.0,59.0,1294,255,1226,255
    ...
    These data were annotated and distributions were analyzed with some basic statics to see if the different TIMs under the IHS really makes a difference. Note that there are too many variable to control for this sort of analysis to be iron clad. For example, TIM spreading variations, mounting techniques, variations in hardware, etc. Even room temp can't be rigorously controlled. My office is air conditioned and ranged from 75-77 F when I ran the stress tests.

    Methods of Stressing
    I use linux, but fortunately, key stress testers are cross platform. Intel BurnTest for windows is based on linpack from Intel which is available for many platforms. The settings I used were 25k problem sizes and 25k leading dimensions with 4 KB alignment.

    On top of linpack, I ran a compile job looped in the background (nice=19) set to use 8 threads to further scarfs-up any unused CPU cycles.

    System Specs and Settings
    Asus P8Z77-V Pro
    Intel 3770K @ 45x100
    Cooling is an NH-D14 with both fans; my system manages their speed but they are both running on max for the stress tests (1,200 RPM for the 140mm and 1,300 RPM for the 120mm).

    The BIOS is running using a vcore in offset mode so the vcore is automatically controlled by the BIOS and is dependent on load. Mine is stable with a setting of +0.0200 and here are the other key voltages and settings in case you're wondering:
    Code:
    VCCSA Voltage = 0.92500
    CPU PLL Voltage = 1.5500
    PCH Voltage = 1.06000
    CPU Load-Line Calibration = Ultra High
    CPU Current Capability = 140 %
    CPU Power Response = Medium
    Results
    I ran the stress test described above for ~2 h period and used the geometric mean of the temps per core as the "average" temperature over that time period. I repeated this for a total of 4 nights, but lost the data on day 1 due to an overwrite on my part! Here are the average corresponding temps per day; there is a nice decrease out to day 3 where it more or less plateaus off. Perhaps that is the AS5 "breaking-in." Also note the error bars correspond to the measured ambient temp which ranged between 75-77 F or 1.1 C. You can see that some values at day 3 and 4 are not different when accounting for this:


    As well, here is a plot of the delta temp, that is, the values subtracted from the stock results indicating the magnitude of temperature decrease:


    And to be sure this horse has been beaten well after it died, here are the results compiled in a table:


    Conclusion
    For this example, a decrease in load temps was observed after delidding an Intel 3770K and replacing the factory TIM with AS5. The magnitude of the temperature reduction was not even across all cores, and ranged for -2C to -12C. The data are consistent with Arctic Silver Inc.'s claim that the TIM requires a break in period. This has to be one of the cheapest modifications to gain lower operating temperatures which can be converted into higher voltage and likely higher clock rates. The unevenness of the decrease is puzzling. Since the overall rank order of temps was retained after the TIM replacement, perhaps it has to do with some physical unevenness in the IHS, in the base of the HS, or on the CPU die itself. Investigating this is beyond the scope of this exercise.

    Supporting Data
    Link to my shell used to log the data.
    Link to my shell script used to run gcc in the background.
    Link to the entire data file (tab separated) should you wish to dig into it.
    Last edited by graysky; 08-02-2012 at 05:13 PM.

  2. #277
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    It could also be unevenness of stock TIM application - thus different improvements with even application of replacement TIM

  3. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by churchy View Post
    It could also be unevenness of stock TIM application - thus different improvements with even application of replacement TIM
    If that were the case, I would expect the rank order of hottest to lowest cores to shift, but it doesn't. What I didn't put in the post was that I have reseated/reTIM'ed the setup 3 times before leaving it alone for the experiment I wrote-up. Since then, I have reseated/re-TIM'ed again and in all 4 cases, the same rank order!

  4. #279
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    Must be the sensors on the CPU itself
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  5. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by madmaxx View Post
    Must be the sensors on the CPU itself
    Maybe but my money is on an uneven surface. Either,
    1) inside of the IHS
    2) outside of the IHS
    3) base of my heatsink

  6. #281
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    great effort by graysky. either he's written a report before, or is pretending well enough!

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  8. #283
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    Update for my results



    results from VDO on before and after, system setting 3570K@4.5GHz, 1.3Vidle), 1.296Vload | RAM 2666C11, 1.65V | Room temp ~37ºC

    Before remove the IHS or intel stock TIM


    about Subzero sense #1 measure at heatpipe and #2 measure at base, this can help to checking for about heat transfer from Die to IHS
    if it heating up that mean heat from CPU die can more transfer to IHS



    from above seem average different about 10ºC for before and after

    more testing with different clock and lower Vcore

    3.8GHz


    4.0GHz


    4.5GHz


    4.7GHz - this is max MHz of this chip can do before remove IHS with this cooler


    finally after replacing TIM to Gelid GC-Extreme temperature lessen ~10ºC and it can get more MHz ~200MHz from 4.7GHz to 4.9GHz
    now it can stress at 4.9GHz but before can't do over 1 minute and temp will jump to 100ºC in 10sec !


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  9. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZoLKoRn View Post
    Update for my results
    results from VDO on before and after, system setting 3570K@4.5GHz, 1.3Vidle), 1.296Vload | RAM 2666C11, 1.65V | Room temp ~37ºC

    Before remove the IHS or intel stock TIM
    about Subzero sense #1 measure at heatpipe and #2 measure at base, this can help to checking for about heat transfer from Die to IHS
    if it heating up that mean heat from CPU die can more transfer to IHS

    from above seem average different about 10ºC for before and after

    more testing with different clock and lower Vcore

    3.8GHz

    4.0GHz

    4.5GHz

    4.7GHz - this is max MHz of this chip can do before remove IHS with this cooler

    finally after replacing TIM to Gelid GC-Extreme temperature lessen ~10ºC and it can get more MHz ~200MHz from 4.7GHz to 4.9GHz
    now it can stress at 4.9GHz but before can't do over 1 minute and temp will jump to 100ºC in 10sec !

    Sorry for my English
    Nice results mate.
    Your GFlops is so low. so i guess it will fail faster with the latest LinX w/ AVX + win7 SP1
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  10. #285
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    3770k getting ready to go under.

    Wish me luck, she's only 2.5 days old.


    I just saw my sig, man I have not been here for a while.
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  11. #286
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    @broken pixel - wait.. be sure you do some before control testing so you have something to compare back to afterwards!

  12. #287
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    Broken Pixel, it will be much easier/safer to use a thinner razor. Go to a drug store and get a double edged razor blade from the shaving section.
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    Quote Originally Posted by owikh84 View Post
    Nice results mate.
    Your GFlops is so low. so i guess it will fail faster with the latest LinX w/ AVX + win7 SP1
    Yah.. GFlops is very low because it still run with SP0
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  14. #289
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    A quick question. Shall i go with Coollaboratory Liquid Pro or Ultra. Will it make any difference at all? Is the one safer than the other?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosAD View Post
    A quick question. Shall i go with Coollaboratory Liquid Pro or Ultra. Will it make any difference at all? Is the one safer than the other?
    i used MX2 dropped the same as others...
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  16. #291
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    I mean between the die and the IHS, it is said that its the best tim you can use.
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    I used AS5 to start with & at 4.5GHz it made a small difference about 6oC & at 4.8GHz my CPU would hit 100oC running IBT. I then used some liquid Ultra & although my 4.5GHz temps have not moved much (another 4oC / 60~65oC IBT in 22 ambient) I can now run IBT 5GHz in the early 90'S. For me the Liquid Ultra made all the difference to the very top end of what my chip can do.

    Edit: I have PK1 between IHS & Block atm & find it is as good as the GC Extreme I had been using.
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    Last edited by C-N; 07-30-2012 at 11:10 PM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosAD View Post
    A quick question. Shall i go with Coollaboratory Liquid Pro or Ultra. Will it make any difference at all? Is the one safer than the other?
    I would like to see a comparison between Coollaboratory and for example AS5 or MX2. I used Liquid Pro, but observed a much larger difference than most people here that are using MX2 and AS5. I went from 85C average to 62C average, but I expect that my chip was exceptionally bad as it was even very hot at stock, although I see some other people reporting such drops with Coollaboratory too.

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  19. #294
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    I also used liquid ultra between the die and the IHS and experienced ~17C improvement across the board at 4.8ghz which seems higher than the average. You can't beat it for the interface between the IHS and the chip.
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    How does the Coollaboratory products interact with the silicon? I thought they used to damage certain HSF and even some CPU iHS'? I wouldn't want that on bare silicon...
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  21. #296
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    Quote Originally Posted by madmaxx View Post
    How does the Coollaboratory products interact with the silicon? I thought they used to damage certain HSF and even some CPU iHS'? I wouldn't want that on bare silicon...
    Gallium (which is a large part of the liquid metal products) reacts with aluminum which is why it damages certain HSFs. Gallium does not react with silicon or copper. Liquid metal products are perfectly safe to use on bare silicon and the IHS (which is copper currently).
    Last edited by babalouj; 07-31-2012 at 08:04 AM.
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    Got a good improve with AS5, 9ºC ish but not enough, waiting liquid ultra for more testings.
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  23. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosAD View Post
    A quick question. Shall i go with Coollaboratory Liquid Pro or Ultra. Will it make any difference at all? Is the one safer than the other?
    I saw a 42 minute Spanish? Portugese? youtube vid where the guy delided his 3770K and tried mx-4, pro, and ultra. In his test, the MX-4 and ultra came out about the same but the pro was 4 degrees cooler. That tracks with the thermal conductivity info that I have seen so far:

    LM Pro = 82w/mK (according to a HWBOT 2008 TIM roundup)
    LM Ultra = 32 or 38w/mK (several web sources and post #216 in this thread)
    IX = 20w/mK (IX literature)
    PK-1 = 10.2w/m -c (frozencpu)
    everything else is less

    So, on pure thermal conductivity, pro performs best and would be my suggestion between die and IHS. But for it to be effective, both surfaces have to be flat (not bowed) and you want just a very, very thin layer between the two. Also, both surfaces have to be "tinned or wetted" for it to adhere and function properly. If you only wet/tin one surface, there is a good chance the other surface won't adhere properly upon mating. You can get pro to adhere to silicon but you have to "scrub" it with a q-tip (cotton bud), a paint brush may not work.

    To check tolerances between die and IHS, I would use a small piece of carbon paper or just ink the die, place the IHS on and clamp down. Remove and check underside of IHS for a nice, even, rectangular ink/carbon transfer. If you don't see it, then there is too much of a gap and the IHS bottom outside perimeter needs to be lapped on something flat to lower the IHS down closer to the die (don't lap the underside middle of the IHS). Remember, in stock form, the IHS was sitting on a layer of black adhesive and had thick, pasty TIM to make up the gap. Since this has been removed and not replaced, the IHS will be lower to the die and may not require lapping; just do the test above to check. Once you get a nice transfer, you are at the point where pro will be effective. I have read several reports of people using pro and it didn't work because there was too big a gap. If you don't want to go to the effort to get a good contact, then ultra would probably be a better choice, since it uses a graphite copper matrix and fills in gaps better than pro, but it isn't as thermally conductive as pro (at least from the intel that I have seen). If someone has a definitive source on the thermal conductivity of the two, please share.
    Last edited by dr_dx; 08-01-2012 at 03:26 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dr_dx View Post
    To check tolerances between die and IHS, I would use a small piece of carbon paper or just ink the die, place the IHS on and clamp down. Remove and check underside of IHS for a nice, even, rectangular ink/carbon transfer. If you don't see it, then there is too much of a gap and the IHS bottom outside perimeter needs to be lapped on something flat to lower the IHS down closer to the die (don't lap the underside middle of the IHS).

    Remember, in stock form, the IHS was sitting on a layer of black adhesive and had thick, pasty TIM to make up the gap. Since this has been removed and not replaced, the IHS needs to be lowered to be in better contact with the die.
    Is that right? Draw a pic of the thing... Seems like if you remove some buffer material, the die is a fixed distance off the PCB and the inside of the IHS is also a fixed distance, so by removing the intel black sealant of height x we are effectively lowering the internal clearance between the die and the IHS by that same distance. Am I thinking about this right?

    Link to full size:


    EDIT: http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost...1&postcount=31
    Last edited by graysky; 08-01-2012 at 01:11 AM.

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    Jun 2008
    Posts
    107
    Found this review. Just translate to your language.
    PC1: i5 3570K @ 4.7 / Asus P8Z77-V 1406 / 2x2Gb Ripjaws X 2133 CL9 / EVGA GTX 480 830 Accelero / Dell U2412M / Crucial M4 128 / Corsair TX850 / Antec 1200
    PC2: Q6600@3600 / P5Q Deluxe / 8800GT(GTX260 RIP) / Mushkin @ 1000 / OCZ Vertex 2 60Gb / WD 1Tb Green+Black / Viewsonic VX2025WM
    PC3: Phenom x2@x4@3800 / GAMA785GTUD3H / 2x2Gb Kingston 1600 CL8 / Samsung UE46C6500 / Crucial M4 128 / 8800GT / WD Greens 2*3Tb+2Tb+1Tb / HiperM880 / HAF 912 Plus

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