Vega's *Heavyweight* display and computer; edition 2012

[Callsign_Vega]

i advise against water wetter

used it before and all it did was stain tubing pink, foam up so bad i couldnt bleed the loop, and it eats through every kind of glue out there. i had epoxy in my reservoir and a week later it was like toothpaste.

Actually, I've used water wetter before to great effect. I never noticed any foaming or gunk/goop anywhere. But then again I wasn't using clear tubing, nor am I here. I am using Norprene industrial chemical type tubing. Materials that will be in my water loop: Norprene, PVC, Copper, Nickel, Brass, Galvanized Steel, and acrylic. The Galvanized Steel only touches PVC (so there is no galvanic corrosion there) and the only aluminum is touching the copper in the sub-zero chilling unit which I may remove from the copper tubes.

I plan to stay above dew point either by setting temp sufficiently high (20-25c) to avoid it or possibly using the Aquaero 5 controller with the software sensors feature to adjust the operating cycle based on dew point. Im still working out what is possible in terms of hooking up different types of physical and software sensors to the controller or possibly even an additional external environment type controller.
Last thing I want is to be dealing with condensation. If I can measure relative humidity in the case compared to air and water temp thats a big step in the right direction!

You shouldn't need to go as high as 20-25 C, 15 C can take you up to pretty high levels of humidity and still be safe. (About 20 C room temperature at 75% relative humidity). I really never let my house go above 50% relative humidity and 20 C temp, so I could run chilled water as low as 10 C. That would be my limit for the Geothermal Loop but the temperature I am expecting is 13-14 C which is well within the safety limit. Much better water temps than ambient cooling that is for sure!


On another note; I just finished my custom reinforced 7 foot stainless steel desk to hold my monster display setup. I stood on this right in the middle on one of my feet (180lb) and it didn't even flex a hair.





Welding stainless steel is harder than you think! (just kidding). Time for the old glass desk to go!

[Hondacity]

that looks like the examination table from the morgue :P

[Callsign_Vega]

that looks like the examination table from the morgue :P

Damn, you found out my real-life Dexter secret!

[stren]

So I was puzzled by you going for IB, is the nf200 latency small enough of a problem that the extra clock speed should do better than the extra native pci-e lanes? I'm assuming IB is going to clock like a beast of course based on that one leak.

[Church]

stren: IIRC nf200 extra latency wasn't that bad in old boards with pcie gen1 and compared to little count of lanes, but not so in newest ones. For example IIRC evga made design choice of not using it anymore for it's latest boards, as by them lesser count of lanes provided by chipset resulted in better performance then oldie nf200 could provide. So if you are going to use SB or IB imho it's best to get mobo without nf200 atavism, as you'll have nothing to gain (except looking good in PR BS specs more lanes) performance-wise, but rather will loose something due to hot-running nature of oldie nf200 compared to relatively very cool running intel chipsets these days.
+If you'll have ivy bridge cpu with pcie gen3 support, it's 8 newer standard lanes in sli config will have same bandwith as 16x pcie gen2.

[Utnorris]

I know Tomshardware did a review of the P67 with the NF200 versus the x58 Platform and the penalty was minor if any and in some case actually did better.

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/...fire,2910.html

I run the Maximus Extreme and my NF200 rarely gets hot to the touch.

[Callsign_Vega]

So I was puzzled by you going for IB, is the nf200 latency small enough of a problem that the extra clock speed should do better than the extra native pci-e lanes? I'm assuming IB is going to clock like a beast of course based on that one leak.

NF200 is not PCI-E 3.0 so Z77 won't have that. I think there is something out there now to do lane splitting on PCI-3.0, we just haven't heard of it yet as the IB info is still under wraps. Maybe there is some sort of NF300 or something from Hydra.

Here you can see a heat spreader over Gigabytes Z77 G1 Sniper 3 in the middle, a heat-spreader that isn't on their other Z77 boards. So something is being cooled under there (Sniper 3):




And here you can see this item which I will call a "lane splitter" is not on their other Z77 motherboards:




In this video, the guy mentions Quad-Fire and Quad-SLI. But there is a huge difference between 4x single GPU cards and 2x dual GPU cards, so not sure if he is referring to the latter or both. Traditionally nVidia has required all MB's have a NF200 for quad single GPU SLI, but that game changes with Z77 and PCI-E 3.0 so it will be interesting to see what becomes of it.

http://hexus.net/tv/show/2012/01/Gig...on_show_at_CES


Now if Z77 only supports Tri-SLI using single GPU cards, getting 2x GTX 690's or 790's or whatever they will call them might be an option for quad SLI. That is of course if nVidia fixed all of the power problems that they had on the GTX 590 that barely allowed any overclocking.

X79 isn't off the table but more money for a slower gaming CPU versus IB doesn't sit too well with me.

[kinghong1970]

Here is my proposed simple cooling system...

hate to see what you consider "complex"

wow! i am impressed1

[Callsign_Vega]

Does anyone have experience working with any of these materials: acrylic, polycarbonate, CR-39 or polyurethane? I have contacted my Fresnel lens manufacturer to see if he could tell me what material they are. I am interested in trimming them to fit my display setup perfectly. Curious if the "score and snap" method would work or is cutting involved.

[Manicdan]

they looked very thin, you can probably cut them rather easily, as long as you can cut strait.
ive tried score and snap method with acrylic (1/4" thick) but failed every time. table saw is the way to go with plastics, but a good cutting blade alone is 50$+

[MadHacker]

Does anyone have experience working with any of these materials: acrylic, polycarbonate, CR-39 or polyurethane? I have contacted my Fresnel lens manufacturer to see if he could tell me what material they are. I am interested in trimming them to fit my display setup perfectly. Curious if the "score and snap" method would work or is cutting involved.

many years ago i started making my own home projector that needed fresnel lenses.
i was able to cut them smaller pretty easily with the "score and snap" method. just have to score it well.
the edges weren't perfect but the edges were hidden by the frame.
with more time i probably could have done a better job

[stren]

Does anyone have experience working with any of these materials: acrylic, polycarbonate, CR-39 or polyurethane? I have contacted my Fresnel lens manufacturer to see if he could tell me what material they are. I am interested in trimming them to fit my display setup perfectly. Curious if the "score and snap" method would work or is cutting involved.

If you want it perfect I'd talk to one of the guys with a laser cutter for acrylic, you can just give them the cad files and they'll ship it to you - they're pretty affordable, furball zen and pedgette have them, if you're friendly with frozen-q or danger den they might hook you up too. Not sure how thick your lens will be and I'm not sure the limit on the lasers, so it may not work. Otherwise a router is generally one of the best ways to do it, you can get a flute bit to follow a piece of wood you've cut to the exact size.

[Callsign_Vega]

Thanks guys for the feedback. I bought a cheap Fresnel to practice on.

The stainless steel desk has exceeded my expectations in both looks and strength. Really high quality and USA made. This thing will last a lifetime.

[Phatboy69]

NF200 is not PCI-E 3.0 so Z77 won't have that. I think there is something out there now to do lane splitting on PCI-3.0, we just haven't heard of it yet as the IB info is still under wraps. Maybe there is some sort of NF300 or something from Hydra.

Here you can see a heat spreader over Gigabytes Z77 G1 Sniper 3 in the middle, a heat-spreader that isn't on their other Z77 boards. So something is being cooled under there (Sniper 3):




And here you can see this item which I will call a "lane splitter" is not on their other Z77 motherboards:




In this video, the guy mentions Quad-Fire and Quad-SLI. But there is a huge difference between 4x single GPU cards and 2x dual GPU cards, so not sure if he is referring to the latter or both. Traditionally nVidia has required all MB's have a NF200 for quad single GPU SLI, but that game changes with Z77 and PCI-E 3.0 so it will be interesting to see what becomes of it.

http://hexus.net/tv/show/2012/01/Gig...on_show_at_CES


Now if Z77 only supports Tri-SLI using single GPU cards, getting 2x GTX 690's or 790's or whatever they will call them might be an option for quad SLI. That is of course if nVidia fixed all of the power problems that they had on the GTX 590 that barely allowed any overclocking.

X79 isn't off the table but more money for a slower gaming CPU versus IB doesn't sit too well with me.

If I were you I'd bite the bullet and build on the X79 for now and wait for IB-E. It depends a little bit though on when your planning to get this rig operational. I doubt anyone will do a 4 slot 4way SLI/crossfire setup for Z77 anyway, its not the enthusiast platform. It's only setup with enough PCIE lanes to do 3 way so unless your using dual GPU cards you wont get 4way on Z77. You should be able to get to 5.3Ghz comfortably on X79 with what your planning here and from what I can tell you wouldnt be CPU limited even with the 4way 7970's overclocked. (even on X58 with your 990x)

[Callsign_Vega]

If I were you I'd bite the bullet and build on the X79 for now and wait for IB-E. It depends a little bit though on when your planning to get this rig operational. I doubt anyone will do a 4 slot 4way SLI/crossfire setup for Z77 anyway, its not the enthusiast platform. It's only setup with enough PCIE lanes to do 3 way so unless your using dual GPU cards you wont get 4way on Z77. You should be able to get to 5.3Ghz comfortably on X79 with what your planning here and from what I can tell you wouldnt be CPU limited even with the 4way 7970's overclocked. (even on X58 with your 990x)

Ya, I am thinking about pulling the trigger on a Rampage IV Extreme, but it's that $1000 CPU that really irks me. Especially when my current 2700K @ 5.2GHz most likely would do better in games than a 3960X overclocked to even the same speed if it's even possible. I'm in no super rush as I think Kepler will be the last thing I need that releases. In the meantime I am getting everything else set up.

[Phatboy69]

Ya, I am thinking about pulling the trigger on a Rampage IV Extreme, but it's that $1000 CPU that really irks me. Especially when my current 2700K @ 5.2GHz most likely would do better in games than a 3960X overclocked to even the same speed if it's even possible. I'm in no super rush as I think Kepler will be the last thing I need that releases. In the meantime I am getting everything else set up.

Easy fixed, just go with 3930k to play with until IB-E comes out. It OC better at half the price. I'm very happy with mine!

[Callsign_Vega]

Easy fixed, just go with 3930k to play with until IB-E comes out. It OC better at half the price. I'm very happy with mine!

Overclocks better? How so?


Just a quick look at a Fresnel lens in front of a FW900 during testing. The 22.6" view-able appears to be around a 26-27" with the lens:

http://youtu.be/rp8sIip-jdc


I've just read this new article and it appears nVidia won't let 1155 do Quad-SLI:

http://vr-zone.com/articles/detailed...3/15100-2.html

So that means I'll have to go with X79 for Quad-SLI using single GPU cards or get two dual GPU Kepler like the GTX 690/790 whatever they are going to call it. If nVidia fixed the power problem on the new dual cards, if I water cool them I might get 95% of the performance for half the cost. We shall see. So maybe my X79 water block diagram was a prophecy!

I'd be more comfortable jumping into X79 if I knew there was a guarantee and not just rumors about Ivy Bridge-E fully supporting X79.

[stren]

Overclocks better? How so?


Just a quick look at a Fresnel lens in front of a FW900 during testing. The 22.6" view-able appears to be around a 26-27" with the lens:

http://youtu.be/rp8sIip-jdc


I've just read this new article and it appears nVidia won't let 1155 do Quad-SLI:

http://vr-zone.com/articles/detailed...3/15100-2.html

So that means I'll have to go with X79 for Quad-SLI using single GPU cards or get two dual GPU Kepler like the GTX 690/790 whatever they are going to call it. If nVidia fixed the power problem on the new dual cards, if I water cool them I might get 95% of the performance for half the cost. We shall see. So maybe my X79 water block diagram was a prophecy!

I'd be more comfortable jumping into X79 if I knew there was a guarantee and not just rumors about Ivy Bridge-E fully supporting X79.

Yeah i'd be tempted to wait and see.

Also you complained about eye strain with the 60hz lcd monitors. Won't it be worse with CRT's even high refresh rates ones?

[Phatboy69]

Overclocks better? How so? .

3930k generates less heat than the 3960x and it has been proven to OC better at less volts for the same OC, which gives you more head room. The extra cache in the 3960x creates the extra heat and shows little to no performance benefit.

[l0ud_sil3nc3]

3930k generates less heat than the 3960x and it has been proven to OC better at less volts for the same OC, which gives you more head room. The extra cache in the 3960x creates the extra heat and shows little to no performance benefit.

the 3930k does not oc any better or worse than the x, there is just a bigger sample size for 3930k's vs. 3960x's, and just like sb, binning is required to get a good (high muti) chip.

as for the extra heat due to the slightly higher amount of l3 cache. . .

[Phatboy69]

the 3930k does not oc any better or worse than the x, there is just a bigger sample size for 3930k's vs. 3960x's, and just like sb, binning is required to get a good (high muti) chip.

as for the extra heat due to the slightly higher amount of l3 cache. . .

Read this review > http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu..._12.html#sect0
This is one of a few that I read that comments on the higher operating temp of the 3960X which ultimately effects your maximum headroom. Performance even at stock clocks between the CPUs is within 1-2% of each other so the 3960X just isnt worth it. If it was I would have got the 3960X in a heartbeat.

I didnt just make this stuff up you know and I do have a 3930K that does 5.1Ghz so I have some point of reference!

[Callsign_Vega]

Wow, I thought AMD was a nightmare to set up Eyefinity. I've been trying for many hours now to get my two 580's into Surround and I am about to pull my hair out. When I go to configure surround it just says "connect displays" and lists zero displays connected. So freaking frustrating.

Randomly selects resolutions etc. Hit my first major snag in this build, hope it doesn't take me out. Multi-GPU/Multi-display setups in both camps are such a HUGE pain in the ass.

[Callsign_Vega]

Success! Well, at least a majority success. My setup during portrait nVidia Surround testing:






So during testing I kept wondering why it would not go into Surround mode, even when I was getting three green check marks on the Surround config page. I had all the same FW900 .inf's loaded, everything was a go. But when it actually went to put them into Surround it would fail. It would put it back into non-SLI "activate all displays" mode, with it then showing two FW900's and a "generic non-PNP monitor". I tried like eight different drivers, moving the computer around, switching cables and stuff. Was a super frustrating 8 hours.

So I thought OK, maybe nVidia is super anal and wants actual EDID information from every display. So I disconnected all of my BNC5 cables and used regular VGA cables that could pass EDID. Sure enough, that got it working! So nVidia Surround requires EDID information. Surround is working, but I am stuck at the standard resolution and refresh rates that the monitor sends out over EDID like 2304x1440@80Hz, 1920x1200@85Hz. It won't let me adjust those at all. Not a deal breaker but not ideal either. Plus I think BNC cables have a slightly better image, so maybe in the future I will do some crazy cable hack-job monstrosity in which I can use the BNC cables and pull EDID info at the same time. Suggestions welcome here! I don't even know if the FW900 will send out EDID info if the BNC cables are plugged in. Anyone know where I can get super high quality VGA cables in 25 foot lengths? Or a way to breakout the VGA to my BNC cables yet still get the EDID signal to the GPU's?

Even with the huge bezel gaps during my testing, the FW900 portrait Surround setup is EPIC. You get super high resolution, ridiculous buttery smooth CRT motion, zero viewing angle problems, zero ghosting, zero back-light bleed or IPS glow or anti-glare coating problems that you get with LCD's. nVidia Surround/multi-GPU with the CRT's has no stuttering or any problems with any of the games I tested. FW900's work extremely well in portrait as you don't have to worry about pixel orientation, a change in viewing angles or any of that nonsense. Definitely motivated now to work on the bezel-less Fresnel lens portion of the project.

[Callsign_Vega]

http://www.connectpro.com/prod_vid_ddcDVI.html

That looks very interesting. Allows you to program and emulate EDID info and then I'd be able to pass my analog signal along over BNC.

[Callsign_Vega]

Read this review > http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu..._12.html#sect0
This is one of a few that I read that comments on the higher operating temp of the 3960X which ultimately effects your maximum headroom. Performance even at stock clocks between the CPUs is within 1-2% of each other so the 3960X just isnt worth it. If it was I would have got the 3960X in a heartbeat.

I didnt just make this stuff up you know and I do have a 3930K that does 5.1Ghz so I have some point of reference!

Interesting. What is your VCORE to get that GHz stable?



Since the FW900 was designed for normal landscape mode and the heat rising, I've modded a super quiet Noctua fan to help move air while they are in portrait mode.



(And yes for you nit-pickers I meant for it to be slightly askew to align with the grate vent holes for mounting)