Llano in the house... (as Charged :-) )

[The Stilt]

AHCI failing at ~ 140MHz BCLK has nothing to do with the board itself, just a feature of Hudson FCHs.

[S1nn3r]

AHCI failing at ~ 140MHz BCLK has nothing to do with the board itself, just a feature of Hudson FCHs.

I see, though some reviews of various boards suggest AHCI failing sooner then that depending on board. The Asus here for example only gets to 106mhz before pooping itself - http://www.anandtech.com/show/5052/a...llano-at-120/2

[Miwo]

There was a price drop today on the F1A75-V Pro, so I ordered. $88 after $10 rebate.
http://www.amazon.com/ASUS-F1A75-V-P...3664428&sr=8-1

Strong VRM (6+2), good cooling and board layout, and Stilt bios support... don't think you can go wrong

[The Stilt]

New "major" bios releases for F1A75 series inbound...
Changes: Support for A6-3670 and A8-3870 (GPU Boost)

[S1nn3r]

Stilt:

Does your custom BIOS help with the AHCI issues at all ? .. because judging from that Anand review i posted the Pro seems like a total waste of time as far as OCing Llano goes.. and the review mentions similar problems with other Asus A75 boards to. Then again the Gigabyte gets "marked down" even more for having memory compatibility issues to so I dont know.

[Miwo]

To avoid AHCI issues altogether (in theory), why not just get yourself an A6-3670k instead of X4 631/651? 651s are nowhere to be found, and 631s are about $90. Its not much more to spend $30-40 to get that unlocked multiplier and avoid BLCK issues altogether. i think most AHCI issues come from everything getting out of sync once BLCK changes from 100MHz. Inventory shows that the Black Editions may be in stock this week

Also Anand probably did not try booting above 133MHz on the Asus. At 133MHz, an internal divider kicks in (like PCI dividers back in the day to keep it running at 33MHz) to make sure things aren't too far out of sync. He probably hit 130FSB and called it a day. Llano has lots of little strange quirks that not all reviewers may know about

[S1nn3r]

To avoid AHCI issues altogether (in theory), why not just get yourself an A6-3670k instead of X4 631/651? 651s are nowhere to be found, and 631s are about $90. Its not much more to spend $30-40 to get that unlocked multiplier and avoid BLCK issues altogether. i think most AHCI issues come from everything getting out of sync once BLCK changes from 100MHz. Inventory shows that the Black Editions may be in stock this week

Also Anand probably did not try booting above 133MHz on the Asus. At 133MHz, an internal divider kicks in (like PCI dividers back in the day to keep it running at 33MHz) to make sure things aren't too far out of sync. He probably hit 130FSB and called it a day. Llano has lots of little strange quirks that not all reviewers may know about

So assuming I get BCLK above 133 its all good ?

Yes, Llano is a strange beast indeed, i guess thats why im so curious about it. Its ether Llano or a 960T and cheap 990FX/970 mobo by the way ..

Re: the 3670K, none of my usual retailers I use even have them listed as pre order yet(Am in the UK) so its unlikely that they will show up before new year here.. thats to much of a wait for me.

[Miwo]

So assuming I get BCLK above 133 its all good ?

Yes, Llano is a strange beast indeed, i guess thats why im so curious about it. Its ether Llano or a 960T and cheap 990FX/970 mobo by the way ..

Re: the 3670K, none of my usual retailers I use even have them listed as pre order yet(Am in the UK) so its unlikely that they will show up before new year here.. thats to much of a wait for me.

Ahh gotcha. I am in a similar boat as well, I'm upgrading from a gd70 790fx / 720BE. I was considering the same exact setup as you (replace 720BE with 960T), or go with 970A mobo + 960T and wait for PD. I'm fascinated with Llano even though its end of life, and its something different... so I've settled on this.

As far as the 133MHz divider, it may be something strange like 125-132MHz , no boot, 133MHz+ boot. New BIOS may certainly help, but there just isnt a whole lot of info out there. Not many people into LLano because its not really any better than Phenom II, and plus you have to deal these quirky issues after you change the BCLK. Check out some of these articles:

133MHz Dividers, tips, etc. http://www.overclockers.com/overcloc...mds-llano-apu/
Stilts own findings: http://hwbot.org/forum/showthread.php?t=29770

[S1nn3r]

Ahh gotcha. I am in a similar boat as well, I'm upgrading from a gd70 790fx / 720BE. I was considering the same exact setup as you (replace 720BE with 960T), or go with 970A mobo + 960T and wait for PD. I'm fascinated with Llano even though its end of life, and its something different... so I've settled on this.

As far as the 133MHz divider, it may be something strange like 125-132MHz , no boot, 133MHz+ boot. New BIOS may certainly help, but there just isnt a whole lot of info out there. Not many people into LLano because its not really any better than Phenom II, and plus you have to deal these quirky issues after you change the BCLK. Check out some of these articles:

133MHz Dividers, tips, etc. http://www.overclockers.com/overcloc...mds-llano-apu/
Stilts own findings: http://hwbot.org/forum/showthread.php?t=29770

That overclockers.com link seems to suggest using AHCI at all when OCing Llano is a bad idea. Though this is the first ive read that says don't bother using it at all. Having an SSD working properly is important to me.. hwbot post seems to suggest that Asus boards are the best at dealing with the various BCLK oddity's so there is that ..

Also while i think of it. Will I have an issue with the Athlon 631 whereby on a A75 board that needs a bios update to support it it just will not work, or will it at least allow me to boot for such an update with an unsupported processor ?

[Andi64]

SSD will work perfectly as IDE. The performance will be the same as AHCI, and there is TRIM support, using the native Windows driver. So, for overclocking a FM1 board, I'll suggest setting the controller as IDE. There is nothing but placebo effects to lose.

On the other hand, I wouldn't go for the 631. The only use for FM1 is the integrated GPU. If you are going to buy a discrete GPU, you'll be better with a 960T and try to unlock the cores, even 1 would be great. And it could hit 4.0Ghz easily.

My 2 cents.

[The Stilt]

Stilt:

Does your custom BIOS help with the AHCI issues at all ? .. because judging from that Anand review i posted the Pro seems like a total waste of time as far as OCing Llano goes.. and the review mentions similar problems with other Asus A75 boards to. Then again the Gigabyte gets "marked down" even more for having memory compatibility issues to so I dont know.

Nope.
But like I said, up to 140MHz BCLK atleast AHCI should not be a problem.
I don´t know what and how Anand tested, but I can do around 144MHz before AHCI fails.

[S1nn3r]

Nope.
But like I said, up to 140MHz BCLK atleast AHCI should not be a problem.
I don´t know what and how Anand tested, but I can do around 144MHz before AHCI fails.

Gotten some good feedback on here so getting to the time i need to have a good idea of what id be actually buying if I was to go Llano.How does this look for a off the top of my head "balanced" Llano based core for a build ?

Athlon II X4 631
Asus F1A75-V EVO
8GB Corsair DDR3 Vengeance LP 1600

Asus GTX 560 DirectCU TOP or ATI 6870 ?.. my usual retailer doesn't have much selection of these though, and this particular 560 is almost a 560 Ti with the factory OC so is good value. Would a 6950 be overkill with such a build ?

And again since none has answered, with the FM1 Athlon and the board above, will it at least boot for me to update bios if an old bios is on it ? dont want to end up if i was to do this having to buy a second CPU to get the first to work.. I nearly had to do this the last time i built AMD.

[The Stilt]

Personally I see no point in purchasing a FM1 CPU without the integrated GPU in it.

Anyway FM1 Athlons are Llanos with the GPU disabled so they will work just like a normal APU would.
IIRC Asus sets primary graphics to "NB PCI-E" by default so posting with a separate GFX will not be a problem.

[S1nn3r]

Personally I see no point in purchasing a FM1 CPU without the integrated GPU in it.

Anyway FM1 Athlons are Llanos with the GPU disabled so they will work just like a normal APU would.
IIRC Asus sets primary graphics to "NB PCI-E" by default so posting with a separate GFX will not be a problem.

On the other hand why pay the extra for a FM1 CPU with a GPU if you are not using it ?

I have a very unusual situation with the planning of this new computer that has meant I am having to have backup plans for even my backup plans, and the FM1 build is basicly one of the backup plans.
Trying to keep things on topic to just asking in this thread about the FM1 stuff, hence not realy going into to much detail about those issues though as this is not the forum topic for such things.

[Miwo]

631 will probably have no issues booting. Support has been available for some time for this chip. I will probably encounter the same potential problem with the a6-3670k or x4 651. Don't know if it will boot up from the getgo since technically they aren't even out yet.

IMO, theres no point going with the EVO unless you plan on running Crossfire. The Pro is pretty much the same, with the exception of dual x16 PCIe on the EVO. I didn't see SLI support mentioned on any A75 chipset boards, so i am assuming its not supported. Being "balanced" is really subjective and depends what your needs are. Care less whether or not people think your system is 'balanced' or not

[S1nn3r]

Even OCed and a 560/560Ti or 6870/6890 im not going to need much in the way of wattage on a PSU right for a Llano build ?

Was thinking 500 - 600W should more then cover it.

[tbone8ty]

cant wait for 3870k and 3670k unlocked parts! ( i saw a pre-order rumor floating around today)...wanna get one for testing...been holding off on a 3850 for one...hopefully they updated stepping and they clock well.

want to pair it with a ASUS F1A75-M PRO

which are the best FM1 micro atx boards?

i wanna go with the ASUS F1A75-M PRO but they are usually the most expensive ones....

how is the GIGABYTE GA-A75M-UD2H?
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813128511

how is the BIOSTAR TA75M?
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813138333


are the Asus boards worth the extra cash?

do u think the new K series llanos will fix AHCI issues when changing BCLK?

[S1nn3r]

which are the best FM1 micro atx boards?

i wanna go with the ASUS F1A75-M PRO but they are usually the most expensive ones....

how is the GIGABYTE GA-A75M-UD2H?
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813128511

how is the BIOSTAR TA75M?
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813138333


are the Asus boards worth the extra cash?

do u think the new K series llanos will fix AHCI issues when changing BCLK?

UD2H seems to get good reviews in terms of raw overclocking capability bit basic of a board for me though and i prefer ATX to MATX. The Biostar boards have very little in the way of in depth reviews or feedback same realy goes for any A75 boards other then the Gigabyte or Asus ones it seems. If i do the Llano thing at this stage id be most likely going Asus EVO, althogh Asrocks Extreme 6 does look rather nice for a premium A75 board, but not much in the way of reviews and such for it.

[The Stilt]

do u think the new K series llanos will fix AHCI issues when changing BCLK?

Well kind of... Since you are able to keep the BCLK at 100MHz

[Miwo]

looks like we have to wait until after Christmas for unlocked
http://www.techpowerup.com/156834/26...cked-APUs.html

On a side note, the price of the F1A75-V Pro has dropped a lot in the past week. $80 after 10 rebate on Amazon now
http://www.amazon.com/ASUS-F1A75-V-P...3963484&sr=8-2

[FlanK3r]

The Stilt, where I can find your last BIOS for F1A75 boards? Thx (need one for 3870k )

[S1nn3r]

Any recommendations for an quiet, easy to install(using stock AMD retention ideally) air cooler for a lil Llano ?

Been looking at the Corsair A50, seems about as simple as it can be although the retention looks like it leaves the cooler able to wriggle a little on top of the CPU with the cooler fixed in place, same with the Coolermaster 212 EVO, and the EVO looks more fiddly to install.

Very difficult with Intel's domination as it were to find cooler reviews going in detail on the AMD side of things fitting wise.

[The Stilt]

The unlocked GPU clock is the thing that makes A8-3870 so great.
I´ve been using 900MHz SCLK in 24/7 use for months without any problems on air cooling.
Most of the games are fully playable even at stock clocks, let alone at 900MHz.

The only downside on Llano is the limited memory bandwidth.
To get the every last bit of performance out of the APU your MEMCLK needs to be roughly 200MHz higher than the GPU (SCLK) clock (in games). In benchmarks the optimal MEMCLK-SCLK ratio is even higher, 250-300MHz+.

While SCLK operating at 900MHz the optimal MEMCLK is already around 1100MHz.

Here is the best run I could do on air (in 25c ambient):

http://3dmark.com/3dm11/2223751

SCLK at 970MHz the DRAM is a bottle neck even at 1250MHz...

Obviously I was just testing the GPU part as CPU clocks do not matter in 3DMark11.

Unfortunately the GPU part in my chip has a severe cold bug so no gains at sub zero.
I have not seen or heard about a cold bugged Llano before so I need to try with another chip.

[S1nn3r]

The unlocked GPU clock is the thing that makes A8-3870 so great.
I´ve been using 900MHz SCLK in 24/7 use for months without any problems on air cooling.
Most of the games are fully playable even at stock clocks, let alone at 900MHz.

The only downside on Llano is the limited memory bandwidth.
To get the every last bit of performance out of the APU your MEMCLK needs to be roughly 200MHz higher than the GPU (SCLK) clock (in games). In benchmarks the optimal MEMCLK-SCLK ratio is even higher, 250-300MHz+.

While SCLK operating at 900MHz the optimal MEMCLK is already around 1100MHz.

Here is the best run I could do on air (in 25c ambient):

http://3dmark.com/3dm11/2223751

SCLK at 970MHz the DRAM is a bottle neck even at 1250MHz...

Obviously I was just testing the GPU part as CPU clocks do not matter in 3DMark11.

Unfortunately the GPU part in my chip has a severe cold bug so no gains at sub zero.
I have not seen or heard about a cold bugged Llano before so I need to try with another chip.

These unlocked Llano's are so tempting to wait for,however id be worried about being able do a first boot with them on a box fresh board with an older bios, which if it did fail would would mean getting an older Llano to get the thing to boot for a BIOS update so i figure with the very low CPU costs involved I may as well build with non unlocked CPU and pick up a unlocked in a few months..

Also been looking at a 960T setup again, Llano appeals to me because its kinda weird and interesting though.. ideally id wait for Trinity as that does look awesome indeed from what ive seen but I cant wait that long, my current system barely plays the likes of BF3 and SW:TOR on lowest settings and there is no way I can put this build off for another few months as a result.

[Miwo]

The unlocked GPU clock is the thing that makes A8-3870 so great.

Here is the best run I could do on air (in 25c ambient):

http://3dmark.com/3dm11/2223751

SCLK at 970MHz the DRAM is a bottle neck even at 1250MHz...

Obviously I was just testing the GPU part as CPU clocks do not matter in 3DMark11.

Unfortunately the GPU part in my chip has a severe cold bug so no gains at sub zero.
I have not seen or heard about a cold bugged Llano before so I need to try with another chip.

Have you been able to test the Max CPU overclock on your 3870k? Interested to see how high this can go without worrying about the GPU component.