Laing DDC pump repair PCB mod

[Martinm210]

One more question, I found this:


Rotation speed output pin (open-drain)
This output is held low at startup and when an abnormality is detected. In sensorless mode,
pulses are generated at 3 ppr according to the back-EMF.
Note: 3 ppr = 3 pulses per electrical degree (With a four-pole motor, six pulses are generated
per revolution.)

The DDC is a 6 pole motor.

Electrical degrees is something completely new to me, but it appears that Hz x 10= RPM...is that right?

[DumpALump]

Electrical degrees is something completely new to me

You and me both I'm an econ major. Has jack all to do with electrical or physics lol.

I never bothered figuring out how rpms are actually read other than something like there are a certain amount of pulses per rotation. According to what it says I'd figure it's just 3ppr per 2 poles (6ppr for 4 poles) and so it'd end up being 9ppr for the DDC 6 pole motor.

It's something like
RPM / 60 = Rotations Per Second
Rotations per second * 9 ppr = Hz

So I'd figure RPM = (HZ / 9ppr) * 60


Note: Its just a guess

[m0r7if3r]

You and me both I'm an econ major. Has jack all to do with electrical or physics lol.

I never bothered figuring out how rpms are actually read other than something like there are a certain amount of pulses per rotation. According to what it says I'd figure it's just 3ppr per 2 poles (6ppr for 4 poles) and so it'd end up being 9ppr for the DDC 6 pole motor.

It's something like
RPM / 60 = Rotations Per Second
Rotations per second * 9 ppr = Hz

So I'd figure RPM = (HZ / 9ppr) * 60


Note: Its just a guess

If there's an interest I can take a fan down into the lab and hook the tach up to a scope and the source up to a lab PSU and see what comes out for a fan at a known RPM (cool gear is just one of the many perks of being an EE major )

[Martinm210]

You and me both I'm an econ major. Has jack all to do with electrical or physics lol.

I never bothered figuring out how rpms are actually read other than something like there are a certain amount of pulses per rotation. According to what it says I'd figure it's just 3ppr per 2 poles (6ppr for 4 poles) and so it'd end up being 9ppr for the DDC 6 pole motor.

It's something like
RPM / 60 = Rotations Per Second
Rotations per second * 9 ppr = Hz

So I'd figure RPM = (HZ / 9ppr) * 60


Note: Its just a guess

Thanks!
That's sort of where I was too, but it seems too low. I'll just have to finally test the DC3.2 with RPM sensor then I can match them up exactly. When comparing to the DDC3.25 it seemed like Hzx10 was close, but the 3.25 has a slightly different impeller.

I never recorded RPM on a DDC3.2 test before, so I'll have to do that to be sure. Either way this will not follow the normal PC fan multiplier of Hzx30, so you'll see really high readings.

Maybe 9 is right though.

[Martinm210]

If there's an interest I can take a fan down into the lab and hook the tach up to a scope and the source up to a lab PSU and see what comes out for a fan at a known RPM (cool gear is just one of the many perks of being an EE major )

I noticed my Crystalfontz has a setting for PPR, normally 2 PPR is where it's set. Never knew what PPR meant before..

But it must already have a factor of 15 built in per PPR.

I've just been using my multimeter to record Hz because it seems more accurate.


The DDC has 6 windings, does that mean 6 poles?

Us CE's shouldn't be tinkering with EE stuff....we're bound to pop a cap now and then...

[DumpALump]

From what I could find out, regular fans have a 2 ppr tach wire, which is what the motherboard reads. I tried looking up the voltage used, but couldn't find it

Using the calculations and a 1800rpm fan.
1800rpm / 60 = 30 rotations per second
30 rotations per second * 2 ppr = 60hz
60hz * 30 = 1800

Makes sense. Would figure if your meter is set to 2 ppr that it should correctly read fan speeds. It should be the same for the DDC pumps too since they can be read by the motherboard header.

1800rpm / 60 * 9 = 270hz
1800rpm / 270hz = 6.67 multiplier
Testing 6.67 multiplier:
4500rpm / 60 * 9 = 675hz
675hz * 6.67 multiplier = 4502rpm

So that what you are looking for?

I'm currently looking for a circuit that could convert the 9ppr to 2ppr so that it could be read by the motherboard header. I'd figure it'd be a fairly simple circuit. If it's easy enough, might be mod the diyinhk pcb for it as there is some unused space just for ground.

[mochti01]

Here a picture with the poti at his final place. Only the rpm gives me headache.

[Martinm210]

Nice!

FYI,
I've completed a draft of my blog for the Toshiba controller version, the Sanyo is next. Since they are two different controllers, I chose to keep them separate blogs.

This is just the Toshiba:
http://martinsliquidlab.org/2011/04/...ddc-pump-mods/






http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRoBN...layer_embedded


Cheers!
Martin

[lowfat]

very nice. It does sound quite a bit louder but in my opinion a good trade off for the extra performance.

[wizard1238]

Use motherboard PWM to control the Toshiba PCB modded DDC pump speed seems very simple
Only one resistor and capactior can do the trick!

anybody have time can test and let us know if it work
Reference: http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/e...tes/00538c.pdf

[mochti01]

A simple RC Filter

Do you have an idea how to get the rpm read by the motherboard?

[Martinm210]

Use motherboard PWM to control the Toshiba PCB modded DDC pump speed seems very simple
Only one resistor and capactior can do the trick!

anybody have time can test and let us know if it work
Reference: http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/e...tes/00538c.pdf

Interesting, we would just need to target the 2.5 to 5.0V range, so you'd probably have to tweak the values to get it just right. One of the electrical guys on the board probably can figure it out..

A simple RC Filter

Do you have an idea how to get the rpm read by the motherboard?

Mine works on the crystalfontz, but RPM readout can be hit and miss on motherboards unless you also provide the ground. Try running both the signal and ground wire to a motherboard header and see if that works. That's what I have to do. It will read high if you get it to work, but it should work if you have the Tach wire soldered up.

I also can't get Hz to read via multimeter until I connect both signal and ground to a fan connector as well. Probably something about a need to drain the pulses being sent or something like that..for whatever reason it won't read unless both are connected...same for fans..

[Sparky]

Simple electronics - you have to have a complete circuit or you get nothing

[wizard1238]

Interesting, we would just need to target the 2.5 to 5.0V range, so you'd probably have to tweak the values to get it just right.

PWM from all motherboard is 5V ~25kHz,
50%-100% PWM = 2.5V-5V after the RC filter
R=4k and C= 0.01uF is for ~20kHz (and it should work for ~25kHz) according to AN538

the next project is PWM control the sanyo board, but it's already very silent at 12V, is it need to speed down

[bmaverick]

This has been a great thread to keep tabs on.

[Martinm210]

Simple electronics - you have to have a complete circuit or you get nothing

I'll pour a little water on it next time, that always seems to complete my circuits..

PWM from all motherboard is 5V ~25kHz,
50%-100% PWM = 2.5V-5V after the RC filter
R=4k and C= 0.01uF is for ~20kHz (and it should work for ~25kHz) according to AN538

the next project is PWM control the sanyo board, but it's already very silent at 12V, is it need to speed down

Nice! Yes, PWM would be a nice addition

This has been a great thread to keep tabs on.

FYI, the Sanyo motor is nice and quiet, it sounds much more like a DDC3.1.

Doing a quick and dirty test, not even apples to oranges. The DDC1 had an old PTS acetal top, the Sanyo had and acrylic top.

Ambient = 35.5 dbA
Ambient + DDC1 = 41.7dbA (+6.2dbA)
Ambient + DDC1 with DIYINHK Sanyo PCB = 38.1 (+2.6dbA)

I'll have to do a more apples to apples (Same Top) video recording type of test in an actual loop, but the Sanyo controller is nice and quiet.

[Church]

There are silent/passive builds, and there are moders which are very anal about loudness, where even silent fans @500rpm are marginally tolerable. And i recall some complaining that even DDC3.1 is too loud for them. So pwm imho won't hurt, especially as it gives easy way to regulate pump by software without purchase of expensive smart controllers.

[Martinm210]

Yeah, after running the MCP35X on PWM, I'm completely sold on throttling pump speed dynamically...definitely the way to go for silence and it's good for heat and saving pump life as well.

FYI, I found this on the Sanyo controller:
http://semicon.sanyo.com/en/search/p...11683V&clcd=34

I'm testing the premodded Sany DDC1 now and going to try to solder up one of Bmaverick's pumps he sent over next.

Not sure which DDCs this one is compatible with, but obviously the DDC1s work.

[Martinm210]

Sanyo curve on a DDC-1, Laing original controller vs with the DIYINHK Sanyo board.

Small bump in performance which is nice to see considering it's also an improvement in noise. Power consumption does go up a couple of watts, but nothing significant. RPM also seems to read like any normal fan.

So no huge gains on this one, but a good quiet DDC3.1 like experience with a touch higher performance. It will also dial down to 7V if ultra silence is needed.

[Church]

Even 1:1 performance would be good, as after all, reviving of otherwise unusable dead pump.
But nevertheless, this forum is called XtremeSystems not for nothing, so "overclocked" Toshiba's DDC"4.5" (or mini-iwaki) rises greater interest of mine

[smanet]

Just revived my old DDC with red rotor... Well, not only I can reuse it, but I got a better pump for the main loop.
I'm amazed! I'm controlling it with a Lamptron FC5.
Just a question: if I hook up a poti, will I have still 12V @ full?


PS: in our country we started talking about DIYINHK here, just as a repair... now it's modding excitement!

[chorner]

I wonder if you plotted a graph with the Toshiba controller versus something like the MCP35x comparing noise output at similar/identical performance settings (whatever voltage that may be for each pump to perform the same)?

That would definitely interest me

[Martinm210]

Just revived my old DDC with red rotor... Well, not only I can reuse it, but I got a better pump for the main loop.
I'm amazed! I'm controlling it with a Lamptron FC5.
Just a question: if I hook up a poti, will I have still 12V @ full?


PS: in our country we started talking about DIYINHK here, just as a repair... now it's modding excitement!

Yes, the poti will not degrade full speed performance like most fan controllers do. When VSP hits around 4.5V it's 100%...no loss by adding the controller

I wonder if you plotted a graph with the Toshiba controller versus something like the MCP35x comparing noise output at similar/identical performance settings (whatever voltage that may be for each pump to perform the same)?

That would definitely interest me

Yeah, I'm going to have to make another pump noise round, it's too hard to tell with the informal tests. The Sanyo is better than the DDC-1, but I'm not sure about the DDC 3.1 or MCP35X, etc.


FYI, I published my blog on the Sanyo along with an installation video of the process.

I worked through installing both the Sanyo and the Toshiba into DDC-1 pumps thanks to Bmaverick and both operate just fine.

I did notice that the DDC-1 is not nearly as power hungry with the Toshiba as the DDC3 series pump tested, so I'll have to run some more tests on the Toshiba to see what DDC-1 performance. The different windings between DDC1 and DDC3 makes the controllers behave differently.

SANYO blog:
http://martinsliquidlab.org/2011/04/...placement-mod/

INSTALL video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5E5kP...layer_embedded

[glide 1]

martin - i watched your video and noticed that the coil assembly came off while you were desoldering the wires. I'm thinking that the 10W pump has more winds on each of the 6 coils compared to the newer DDC3.1's giving the DDC3.1 higher RPM output and amp draw.

My question is, if anyone has tried re-winding the 10W pumps with lesser winds to bring it up to DDC3.1 specs and using the Toshiba pcb. If i had spare pumps to try out, i would do this. Count the number of winds/coil of the 18W version and wind the exact amount on the 10W version.

[smanet]

I've notice that your are installing an heatsink on the SANYO PCB.
Is it usefull for the Toshiba too? It came just as showed before, w/o heatsink I mean. I'm using my revived pump @10V, it's a bit hot.

The pump on the left is the dead one. It has this coil :

This is the back of the revived one (sorry for no preview and bad soldering):

Swapping the red rotor with the blue one will make the pump operate better? I still have some probs understanding the color revisions of Laing impellers...