Feser's New Lineup

[Martinm210]

[Quagmire LXIX]

lol, if you posted that for me, you're cheating Martin , thanks, I stashed the url I guess Fugger doesn't want one here.


if you posted it because you are grabbing a box yourself, then I'm officially embarrassed.

[Martinm210]

No I just posted it for all the drama(elsewhere) entertainment..

[the finisher]

Not much drama here...yet Be nice to see a actual product to get excited about, or not.

[phantomferrari]

the performance of these things better be amazing or else feser will have wasted a lot of frozens money and patience for nothing. i wouldnt be suprised if this brought about the death of the feser company

[Waterlogged]

/

[Elmy]

They have had working models for quite some time now. How long does it take for them to hook them up to a loop and test them. What maybe 6 hours for a good test ? Truth is that they probably don't perform any better than current rads on the market otherwise with initial test they would of expedited the production and had them on the market a long time ago.

I will be surprised if they perform better than the current design.

[zalbard]

They have had working models for quite some time now. How long does it take for them to hook them up to a loop and test them. What maybe 6 hours for a good test ? Truth is that they probably don't perform any better than current rads on the market otherwise with initial test they would of expedited the production and had them on the market a long time ago.

I will be surprised if they perform better than the current design.

Or they do, but the production prices make them not worth it.

[skinnee]

How long does it take for them to hook them up to a loop and test them. What maybe 96 hours for a good test ?

Fixed.

[DexNfX]

...

[Elmy]

Fixed.

The master has spoken .. I apologize if I was incorrect .... LoL

But really they should have internal numbers already.

[skinnee]

LOL! Glad you took it as me having some fun.

Yes, internal performance should have been done in oh, maybe September to hit that original October release date.

[Waterlogged]

LOL! Glad you took it as me having some fun.

Yes, internal performance should have been done in oh, maybe August to hit that original September release date.

Fixed

[skinnee]

Fixed

I had that and then did a ninja edit... should've left a post it note on my monitor.

[bundymania]

Here´s a translation of what the guy from Lötters wrote @HW Lab Comments Section:

Many of you might be familiar with the history of these radiators, so I'll skip this "dark chapter of a cooperation".
It's true that the radiators look a lot alike as they are part of the same "family".
The entire production is designed for high quality...starting at the used materials (I know...stainless steel), over the way surface treatment, to the service. Why stainless steel out of all the possibilities?
When taking a look at the prices of copper, one can see that they are skyrocketing. Stainless steel can't transfer heat as good as copper, but, and this is the most important part, if I cover a 0.2mm thick pipe out of stainless steel with an aluminum pipe, the material of the inner pipe gets less and less important... (Did anyone ever touch a knife out of stainless steel, that just came out of the dishwasher? It's damn hot!)...a thermal breakthrough occurs, the thermal conductivity of the aluminum is all that counts, so everything works out just fine. So much for the stainless steel issue.
Also, there's no soldering involved in the production. Everything is welded together by lasers, resulting in no deformation at all. It also doesn't require any additives, so the radiators are fully RoHS-compilant.

I hope I was able to explain a few things...
Regards,
Tom / thermalfins

[SpuTnicK]

Great.I hope this works as good as it sounds.
BTW should there be a new thread for these rads?

[bundymania]

Yes that would be better. Here´s a new thread for those thermafin rads, i can ask the user if he´s willing to start and organize it here too:

http://www.hardwareluxx.de/community...en-790262.html

[iandh]

Here´s a translation of what the guy from Lötters wrote @HW Lab Comments Section:

Many of you might be familiar with the history of these radiators, so I'll skip this "dark chapter of a cooperation".
It's true that the radiators look a lot alike as they are part of the same "family".
The entire production is designed for high quality...starting at the used materials (I know...stainless steel), over the way surface treatment, to the service. Why stainless steel out of all the possibilities?
When taking a look at the prices of copper, one can see that they are skyrocketing. Stainless steel can't transfer heat as good as copper, but, and this is the most important part, if I cover a 0.2mm thick pipe out of stainless steel with an aluminum pipe, the material of the inner pipe gets less and less important... (Did anyone ever touch a knife out of stainless steel, that just came out of the dishwasher? It's damn hot!)...a thermal breakthrough occurs, the thermal conductivity of the aluminum is all that counts, so everything works out just fine. So much for the stainless steel issue.
Also, there's no soldering involved in the production. Everything is welded together by lasers, resulting in no deformation at all. It also doesn't require any additives, so the radiators are fully RoHS-compilant.

I hope I was able to explain a few things...
Regards,
Tom / thermalfins

Thermodynamics wise, this is correct... thermal transfer is dependent on the thermal conductivity of the material, and the distance that the heat has to travel through the material.

It's the same reason that waterblock bases keep getting thinner and thinner, to the point where they are no longer mechanically feasible. If we were able to make a microchannel waterblock with a .010" thick base, and it was still mechanically stable enough to attain appropriate pressure across the thermal interface, it would outperform any block on the market.

A shorter distance for heat to travel will trump a material with improved thermal conductivity, and with equal distance to travel, thermal conductivity is king.

Stainless steel is more mechanically stable than copper, so thinner tubes can be used whilst still maintaining mechanical stability, and the reduced thermal conductivity vs. copper becomes a non-issue.

People in this hobby are so focused on materials, that they sometimes forget to worry about design... good engineering can easily make up for lower performance materials.

Think of it this way... place your hand on a piece of stainless steel foil, and pour icewater on the other side. Then do the same with a thick copper sheet. Which would feel cold first?

[meanmoe]

Think of it this way... place your hand on a piece of stainless steel foil, and pour icewater on the other side. Then do the same with a thick copper sheet. Which would feel cold first?

Hey iandh, that's not a very fair analogy because it only deals with the transient. The foil simply reaches steady state in less time. It doesn't address the steady-state heat transfer though which is all we really care about. At steady state, distance is less important.

On another note - I can't believe this thread still doesn't have retail product pics in it yet. I'm so not excited anymore .

[iandh]

Hey iandh, that's not a very fair analogy because it only deals with the transient. The foil simply reaches steady state in less time. It doesn't address the steady-state heat transfer though which is all we really care about. At steady state, distance is less important.

On another note - I can't believe this thread still doesn't have retail product pics in it yet. I'm so not excited anymore .

It's just an analogy to help people that are having trouble imagining that thin stainless tubes could outperform thick copper ones.

Regardless of what the analogy shows in relation, the science still says that the water/air delta at equilibrium will be lower on the stainless foil, than it will on the copper sheet.

Distance determines the minimum theoretical water to air delta... material does matter, but it doesn't necessary hold you back as long as you can compensate with less thickness.

[meanmoe]

It's just an analogy to help people that are having trouble imagining that thin stainless tubes could outperform thick copper ones.

Regardless of what the analogy shows in relation, the science still says that the water/air delta at equilibrium will be lower on the stainless foil, than it will on the copper sheet.

Sure, if the copper sheet is at least 8 to 40 times the thickness of the stainless steel foil.

The science, in form of a simplified differential equation for 1-d heat flux, says:
q = -k * dT/dx
where k is conductivity and dx is the differential for distance through the material right.

You probably know more about material dimensions than I do. Is SS foil 1/8-1/40 times the thickness of a copper sheet that would be used for a radiator channel?

Distance determines the minimum theoretical water to air delta... material does matter, but it doesn't necessary hold you back as long as you can compensate with less thickness.

Thickness (for 1-d) and conductivity have almost equal weight. I actually didn't believe the statement above about the SS being negligible so I had to figure it out myself with the following simplifying assumptions.

The conductivity of aluminum is like 2-4 times worse than copper (IIRC 100-200 W/mK) and stainless steel is like 4-10 times worse than aluminum. What should make it worse, is that you now have an additional medium to go through by combining the SS and Al. q = dT/(1/sum(dx/k_i)).

Assuming 0.2mm stainless wrapped with aluminium, the stainless term all but falls out for aluminium thicknesses of 0.2mm to 5mm. The required ratio of copper to aluminum thickness for equivalent heat flux is 1/2 - 1/4 to 2 significant digits. That's kind of cool.

The laser welding vs. soldering also probably gives them another heads up. I'm going to go back to my original statement (and yours) that things can always be optimized through good engineering. I'm looking forward to this again.

EDIT: sorry for the equation blah blah, but like I said I had to figure it out myself and this way someone can tell me how wrong I am (paging mpg ).

[Aedubber]

damn this thread is still going on? lol

[meanmoe]

damn this thread is still going on? lol

that's what I said. note what's not in it.

[gmat]

I doubt the copper channels used in regular heater cores that we are using are any thicker than 1mm ? 0.5mm would sound more realistic... ? Anyone has figures about this ?

[SpuTnicK]

damn this thread is still going on? lol

that's what I said. note what's not in it.

A separate thread has been started. Come join the discussion here