New rumor about ATI Southern Islands

[tajoh111]

LOL, Bart will be a great x7xx chip if 32 nm process wasn't canned, but happens, and there's just so much you can do on the same process. Increasing absolute performance while increasing performance/$, performance/die area, and performance/watt aka overall efficiency at the same time, increasing product value for costumer somewhat (a US$ 229 HD 6870 Bart that's faster than 299 US$ HD 5850 of today is indeed giving more value for costumers, right ?) while making good progress for the company's bottomline altogether, all achieved using the same TSMC's troubled 40 nm process, and you guys already shooting so much flak to AMD ??

No way will it be 229 for a 6870. The cheapest x870 series was the $219(it's price had to drop after) 3870 which is 50 percent smaller and was facing much stiffer competition. and AMD/ATi had completely lost the momentum.

If rumors are true, 68xx is rather close to 270mm in size and it will be priced closer to 300 than 200 because of that. In addition, there is no real competition for it(a full gf104 will probably be pretty close or faster but it is not a confirmed product at this point) AMD knows that it has the momentum right now. Nv has only been able to pick up 15% market share since fermi's introduction. AMD is entirely going to try to take advantage of this situation. The stigma associated with the gtx 470 heat and power use has really stopped it from picking up marketshare, even though its a better value than the 5870 and 5850. AMD is not going to be generous to the consumer this generation and if it renaming is true, that is proof of that. The efficiency AMD seems to be stressing this part generation is power and chip size, not pricing.

[LordEC911]

No way will it be 229 for a 6870. The cheapest x870 series was the $219(it's price had to drop after) 3870 which is 50 percent smaller and was facing much stiffer competition. and AMD/ATi had completely lost the momentum.

If rumors are true, 68xx is rather close to 270mm in size and it will be priced closer to 300 than 200 because of that.

So if RV670 was 192mm2 and Barts is ~270mm2... where does the 50% smaller come into play?

The efficiency AMD seems to be stressing this part generation is power and chip size, not pricing.

Really?

[tajoh111]

So if RV670 was 192mm2 and Barts is ~270mm2... where does the 50% smaller come into play?


Really?

I meant 50 percent larger or close to it, which is substantially bigger. But either way the chip is larger. You can't deny why AMD is renaming which I have seen from your post, agree why they are doing. Its all to justify a higher price. It actually one of the reason why I am taking this rumor rather seriously. When someone very pro AMD/ATI is believing this rumor, it is likely true.

[LordEC911]

I meant 50 percent larger or close to it, which is substantially bigger. But either way the chip is larger. You can't deny why AMD is renaming which I have seen from your post, agree why they are doing. Its all to justify a higher price. It actually one of the reason why I am taking this rumor rather seriously. When someone very pro AMD/ATI is believing this rumor, it is likely true.

Well... I expect people to get numbers right.

I never said it had anything to do with pricing... I am actually somewhat optimistic about Barts pricing, I was merely confirming the rumor was indeed true a few weeks ago, no more/no less.

Edit- To try and clarify, I am more inclined to think this is due to the product placement/naming of their entire lineup than a slightly higher margin to pocket mindset.

[marten_larsson]

I meant 50 percent larger or close to it. Which is substantially bigger. But you can tell the chip is alot larger.

If Barts is 270mm² it has to have at least 1280 shaders. Juniper is what, 150? With 800... If AMD has gone 4-way on this architecture as most seem to believe and that this move would increase their shader density even further it would be practically impossible for a chip to be that size without a quite big increase in shaders (compared to Juniper) or just a slight decrease compared to Cypress.

If Barts XT has 1280 shaders we could expect it to perform in line with 5850 or better. This because of increased shader efficiency, higher clocks and higher memory bandwidth.

Dave Baumann has several times in the Beyond3d-thread stated that the 5800-series is the anomaly regarding price. This leads me to believe Barts is truly 6800-series, will be cheaper than current x8xx cards, will probably be a good purchase. I don't think AMD wants to get hundreds of reviews saying they've got worse performance/$ than their last generation.

[hurleybird]

If Barts is 270mm² it has to have at least 1280 shaders. Juniper is what, 150? With 800... If AMD has gone 4-way on this architecture as most seem to believe and that this move would increase their shader density even further

It's actually the exact opposite. The more narrow the shader the lower the density as there are more duplicated structures taking up space.

[Daveburt714]

I meant 50 percent larger or close to it, which is substantially bigger. But either way the chip is larger. You can't deny why AMD is renaming which I have seen from your post, agree why they are doing. Its all to justify a higher price. It actually one of the reason why I am taking this rumor rather seriously. When someone very pro AMD/ATI is believing this rumor, it is likely true.

tajoh111: It seems obvious to me that you have a bias against AMD in general... I'm actually kind of suprised you have an ATI VC in your rig...

We only have a week or so to go before the release...
If the rebranding thing is accurate, I agree with you.
Changing the Model#'s we're all used to is a little awkward, but they're changing the brand from ATI to AMD as well, so it really might not be that far out of line...

Pricing is going to be the key thing...
If I can pick up a 6850 (6770) for ~ $200, and it performs as well as a 5850 while using less power I'll be a happy camper.

I need a new VC anyway, and I have the cash on hand so as soon as a 6xxx pops up for sale I'll order one and let ya know how it does...

Dave

[tajoh111]

tajoh111: It seems obvious to me that you have a bias against AMD in general... I'm actually kind of suprised you have an ATI VC in your rig...

We only have a week or so to go before the release...
If the rebranding thing is accurate, I agree with you.
Changing the Model#'s we're all used to is a little awkward, but they're changing the brand from ATI to AMD as well, so it really might not be that far out of line...

Pricing is going to be the key thing...
If I can pick up a 6850 (6770) for ~ $200, and it performs as well as a 5850 while using less power I'll be a happy camper.

I need a new VC anyway, and I have the cash on hand so as soon as a 6xxx pops up for sale I'll order one and let ya know how it does...

Dave

No real bias. I might even buy a 6990 if they can keep the price around 650. I even posted pics a while back that I owned both those cards. I have been disappointed in the cards from both company this generation and have not upgraded. I am not letting this name branding slide because no one did when NV did it and alot of people are posting a stance they won't buy NV card because of the renaming antics, which is ridiculous.

The change from AMD to ATI does not justify the name series change because most people are not going to notice that. People are not going base its performance based on naming because they have been the same company for a while. The fact that some people are giving them a ticket out is ridiculous when NV got so much heat for it(which shows tremendous bias).

AMD/ATI started as a pretty nice company, but they have really took some turn for worse for their goodwill lately. Bad graphs, bad commercials and this new naming scheme is not doing favors for their credibility.

This might not get people who have 5xxx series people to upgrade(since it was so recent), but people who held back on the 5870 generation and still have 4xxx might upgrade thinking they are getting a better card than they really are. That is something substantially faster than a 5870 for a much lower price, which honestly would be something that sounds appetizing if it were the case; I think AMD is trying to do this partially as well as increase the margins for their cards. The reality if the renaming is true is that your getting something with very similar speed to a 5850 for just a tiny bit cheaper than its original MSRP. There are alot of rumors that suggest barts xt performs around this level.

What scares me this generation is pricing. The 6970 or single cayman has to be pricier than the last generation(the name suggest so and barts is obviously not going to be priced like older x7xx series) cypress which was already 400 dollars. I can easily see cayman being 500 dollars with no real competition and because AMD has the momentum right now(the stronger brand). Since cayman is bigger and the 5970 was already 700 dollars. Are we going to start seeing 800+ dollar cards. That really scares me is fermi started out so weak. Unless their is a miracle turn around(like the 4870) I can see getting raped by AMD.

I am just getting scared to see a possible monopoly like situation, which could happen, with certain people like charlie wanting to happen and this is spreading to the fanboys which don't realize the longterm consequences. I am not happy when either companies fail because it decreases competition and sometimes forces a company to sell below cost which I dislike because it really does no longterm good. FFS, what is wrong with these people. I didn't like when NV got so strong and I don't like AMD getting so strong.

[marten_larsson]

No real bias. I might even buy a 6990 if they can keep the price around 650. I even posted pics a while back that I owned both those cards. I have been disappointed in the cards from both company this generation and have not upgraded. I am not letting this name branding slide because no one did when NV did it and alot of people are posting a stance they won't buy NV card because of the renaming antics, which is ridiculous.

The change from AMD to ATI does not justify the name series change because most people are not going to notice that. People are not going base its performance based on naming because they have been the same company for a while. The fact that some people are giving them a ticket out is ridiculous when NV got so much heat for it(which shows tremendous bias).

AMD/ATI started as a pretty nice company, but they have really took some turn for worse for their goodwill lately. Bad graphs, bad commercials and this new naming scheme is not doing favors for their credibility.

This might not get people who have 5xxx series people to upgrade(since it was so recent), but people who held back on the 5870 generation and still have 4xxx might upgrade thinking they are getting a better card than they really are. That is something substantially faster than a 5870 for a much lower price, which honestly would be something that sounds appetizing if it were the case; I think AMD is trying to do this partially as well as increase the margins for their cards. The reality if the renaming is true is that your getting something with very similar speed to a 5850 for just a tiny bit cheaper than its original MSRP. There are alot of rumors that suggest barts xt performs around this level.

What scares me this generation is pricing. The 6970 or single cayman has to be pricier than the last generation(the name suggest so and barts is obviously not going to be priced like older x7xx series) cypress which was already 400 dollars. I can easily see cayman being 500 dollars with no real competition and because AMD has the momentum right now(the stronger brand). Since cayman is bigger and the 5970 was already 700 dollars. Are we going to start seeing 800+ dollar cards. That really scares me is fermi started out so weak. Unless their is a miracle turn around(like the 4870) I can see getting raped by AMD.

I am just getting scared to see a possible monopoly like situation, which could happen, with certain people like charlie wanting to happen and this is spreading to the fanboys which don't realize the longterm consequences. I am not happy when either companies fail because it decreases competition and sometimes forces a company to sell below cost which I dislike because it really does no longterm good. FFS, what is wrong with these people. I didn't like when NV got so strong and I don't like AMD getting so strong.

A lot of what you're saying is in line with my views but some are not:

-Barts at x7xx price point is really asking a lot IMO, the chip is 270mm² and you want it competing price wise with a 170mm² chip? It's not reasonable. More reasonable would be to see Barts priced as the 4850/4870/4890.

-Nvidia is finally stepping up to the plate and we will probably see somewhat more competition from them which hopefully will lead to price cuts.

-TSMC is increasing capacity which will give AMD a chance to produce as many cards they can sell, not limited by production. This will also lead to lower prices.

[blindbox]

-Barts at x7xx price point is really asking a lot IMO, the chip is 270mm² and you want it competing price wise with a 170mm² chip? It's not reasonable. More reasonable would be to see Barts priced as the 4850/4870/4890.

Wait a minute, where did you get the info that the chip would be 270 mm^2? 270 mm^2 means that Cayman would be ridiculously big. Highly unlikely.

Pricing differs from generation to generation. Chip size doesn't matter to us consumers when it comes to pricing; it's all about the competition. So it's not really asking a lot. I agree pretty much with all of tajoh111 's post. Having Barts be named as the 6800 series would be pretty disappointing as we are already used to seeing the performance leaps each generation gives. What gives, AMD?

All you can hope for is that the rumours are untrue. I doubt they are false though, seeing as how many of these rumours has cropped up, except for the first Cayman GPU-Z shot which still implied Cayman as the 6800 series.