Feser's New Lineup

[iandh]

Why being so defensive? For example I value EK products as subjectively the best (except rads). I value your StealthRes even more. I think that you
have more than enough approval and gratitude from the community here. Prolly it's hard to make a living out of that, but if you are intrinsic motivated person
you should feel great for the joy you induced in the community with your great products. Just because I stated I can't afford $40 of coolant every now and
then when I get merely the same with your $6 chunk of silver, doesn't mean your products aren't worth the price asked. StealthRes is imho.

Erm, I wasn't being defensive at all...

The comment I was responding to wasn't attacking me, so there wasn't anything for me to defend against.

I believe you missed the point I was trying to make, which had nothing to do with me other than giving an example... and you'll notice I gave the same example using a different company, HK, as well.


The point was that many times when people think a product is overpriced, it could in fact be underpriced.

My point also was that we have no idea what Feser's costs are, and until we do, we can't say they're trying to rip people off. We can say that their price is too high for the market, but there is a HUGE difference between the two.

[anzial]

We can say that their price is too high for the market, but there is a HUGE difference between the two.

From business point of view, there's very little point in releasing evolutionary product if the production cost it very high - it reduces the potential numbers of customers and therefore reduces the profit margins because of competition with less advanced substitute products which provide similar effect for much lesser price. Frequently, company hold off releasing a product for that reason - they wait until a cheaper way to produce the product to be able to compete and make money.

Now, there's is of course niche products that carry a hefty price tag because there's very few people interested and prices are high due to lower production volume. However, watercooling is already a niche market and creating a niche market within a niche market, shall we say, pointless? Again, from a business point of view, because aiming a select group of individuals within select group of individuals reduces the profits even further, leading to even higher prices.

So I'm guessing: prices will be VERY high, partly because it's expensive produce, and partly because it's aimed at a tiny narrow group of people within another small group of people, so profit markup on each will be higher than usual. Feser WILL rip people off, but then watercoolers are used to it, because every watercooling manufacturer does it. The only difference is proportion - some do more and some less, but all are a rip off compared to what's happening in a mass produced air cooling market

[gmat]

What I think is funny is that even when the research money is available for advanced concepts for heat rejection for things like advanced fuel cells and space applications, heat pipes, louvered fins, and microchannels are what they use. Of course, there are expensive tweaks which increase efficiency like advanced materials or extensive optimizaation but essentially that is state of the art I think. This is part of the reason why I'm really curious about this launch and especially with the claims above.

That was the meaning of my post too. Cray dont mind one second about costs. They are providing the most powerful computing solutions on earth (along with NEC and IBM), i dont think they would cut corners on anything. The cooling system used for the Jaguar for instance is a very interesting design, but again i see fins and microchannels... I know the army use watercooling on some equipments, they have specialist engineers who develop full board WB's for their rackable computer boards, those look a lot like what EK does.
I have seen that kind of tube rad (from what i guess on limited photos we have for now) but it was for liquid-to-liquid heat exchangers, not liquid-to-air. As air has a very very low density and heat capacity (well, compared to water), the heat transfer coefficient has to be improved by huge surface area, and that where fins come in. I'm curious to see a proper closeup of their tubes, what counts is the total surface area exposed to airflow, and of course the air flow itself.
(edit) and what kind of exchangers are there on the Bugatti Veyron for example ? We know they spared no expense on R&D on that project and selling the cars almost at cost, just for them being technological demonstrators.

[Aedubber]

Interesting.

[iandh]

From business point of view, there's very little point in releasing evolutionary product if the production cost it very high - it reduces the potential numbers of customers and therefore reduces the profit margins because of competition with less advanced substitute products which provide similar effect for much lesser price. Frequently, company hold off releasing a product for that reason - they wait until a cheaper way to produce the product to be able to compete and make money.

Now, there's is of course niche products that carry a hefty price tag because there's very few people interested and prices are high due to lower production volume. However, watercooling is already a niche market and creating a niche market within a niche market, shall we say, pointless? Again, from a business point of view, because aiming a select group of individuals within select group of individuals reduces the profits even further, leading to even higher prices.

So I'm guessing: prices will be VERY high, partly because it's expensive produce, and partly because it's aimed at a tiny narrow group of people within another small group of people, so profit markup on each will be higher than usual. Feser WILL rip people off, but then watercoolers are used to it, because every watercooling manufacturer does it. The only difference is proportion - some do more and some less, but all are a rip off compared to what's happening in a mass produced air cooling market

You don't seem to have gotten my point... you can not say a company is ripping someone off unless you know their exact production cost and profit margin. There is just no way to know.

They could barely be breaking even with a product that costs twice the market average. If a company is barely breaking even, how are they ripping people off?

It appears that you are using the term ripoff to refer to when a product costs more than other products that perform the same function... that is a common misnomer, but it is not the case. A ripoff is a form of fraud, intentionally overpricing a product to "steal" money from your customers.

Since we do not know Feser's production cost, we can not determine whether they are ripping people off.

[Aedubber]

I agree with IandH , I own my own place and when you use quality goods you can not price it at a lower cost , there is too many variables that come into play .. Ex: a supermarket can sell snapples for cheap due to such bulk but a small pizzeria like in my case I can not sell as low as a supermarket , some people say we cost too much but then some people buy it anyways If you don't own your own company then you never really will know what it'd like plain and simple . Now let's move on and wait for results please ..

[NKrader]

If you don't own your own company then you never really will know what its like plain and simple

really? sounds a little black and white.

[Aedubber]

Ya really , no offense but that's how it is .. I'm not trying to defend anyones case here but you don't know what it's like unless you are the man writing out the checks for your company and for your own personal life as well .

[rocket733]

The whole things pretty simple, if you don't want to pay the price then don't. I personally think Rolexs are overpriced and a rip off however I don't go spamming the forums about it, I just don't buy one.

Value is always subjective and what is a fair price to one person is completely outrageous to another. Fesser is free to run their business how they like and you as a customer are free to not buy their products. However, I don't understand the benefit in complaining about them over and over again, values vary from individual to individual so who am I to say what is a good value for everyone?

Back on topic: It'll be interesting to see if they can improve on the current radiator design. Personally I don't see it but I'm not a thermal engineer so I'll wait and see.

[penguins]

BTW, lately all we see in LC - fine tuning / slow evolution. Imho it's worth to start some new thread with brainstorming of what can be made to radically change some component to enhance it's performance (or radically slash price for same level of performance). Some ideas outside simple ideas like silver instead of copper, even smaller micropins/microchannels, more powerful pumps, more rads and such. I don't like current stagnating state in this hobby and i'm doubtful in these rads breaking the ice of status quo. What can be improved with waterblocks? What with pumps? What with rads? Eg. it was interesting to read one recent thread about non centrifugal pumps (i forgot the term how they were called though), that could do way more pressure then most common LC centrifugal pumps. Or thinking about basics for waterblocks - what are theoretically best in taking heat, and how one can make one more close to that theoretical (eg. thickness of base) without compromising other things (eg. mechanical rigidity), or what else except micropins or microchannels can be used to enhance turbulence or enlarge heat exchange area and still is technologically simple enough to make. How about old idea of TEC + waterblock? Anything but to get out of current swamp of microgains by slowed down evolution.

if you asked someone 7 years ago if they went watercooling so it would
A. Have bling factor
B. put a 480 rad in their case
C. not use worm clamps

they would think you were craaaaaaazy! watercooling used to be Uggggly, with Heatercores, 80mm fans, worm clams ftw!!! i think in 7 years the technology has gotten there, but the looks omg. the facelift that's gone on for watercooled rigs is AMAZING!! it went from 12ft pole to the hottest dame on the street. so i don't really think of anything happening now as stagnating or w/e but that's just my opinion : ) i rarely make new loops or rigs i wait till they self destruct or i get a new computer.. which has been over 4 years . i personally think the companies are doing quite a good job.. but i don't look at it as a Quarterly Thing.

[turtletrax]

The whole things pretty simple, if you don't want to pay the price then don't. I personally think Rolexs are overpriced and a rip off however I don't go spamming the forums about it, I just don't buy one.

Value is always subjective and what is a fair price to one person is completely outrageous to another. Fesser is free to run their business how they like and you as a customer are free to not buy their products. However, I don't understand the benefit in complaining about them over and over again, values vary from individual to individual so who am I to say what is a good value for everyone?

Back on topic: It'll be interesting to see if they can improve on the current radiator design. Personally I don't see it but I'm not a thermal engineer so I'll wait and see.

Now that is how it is done.

I have seen Mobo threads where a someone gets a lemon and whines about it for over a year

[iandh]

Now that is how it is done.

I have seen Mobo threads where a someone gets a lemon and whines about it for over a year

If I get a lemon mobo, that sucker goes in the trash and I go to Fry's or Microcenter and move on with my life.

[Dazmode]

The whole things pretty simple, if you don't want to pay the price then don't. I personally think Rolexs are overpriced and a rip off however I don't go spamming the forums about it, I just don't buy one.

Great post!

[Aedubber]

^^^ OHHHH dazmodEEE !!! Hey i ordered 2 EK gtx460 Waterblocks from you guys, DAMN that was some fast shipping! Thank you!

[Dazmode]

Thanks Aedubber! Come back again.

On topic: ... nothing comes in mind...

[meanmoe]

If I get a lemon mobo, that sucker goes in the trash and I go to Fry's or Microcenter and move on with my life.

That's quality control or variations in production. That's not lying to your customers or falsely hyping a product.

Take the T3 for example - should we really not have screamed? Or that monstrosity from Asus a few years ago. Or the koolance plugs that rust or mixed metals in other gear. I gotta give waterlogged credit for pointing things like this out. Sometimes it's over done, but it's done. Regardless, this is completely different than a lemon motherboard or hot cpu, IMO anyway.

Also, your res's are not overpriced - they are quality! Rolexes are watches... seriously a $10k watch... but they don't make false claims that I know of. Could you imagine getting a lemon Rolex?

That was the meaning of my post too. Cray dont mind one second about costs. They are providing the most powerful computing solutions on earth (along with NEC and IBM), i dont think they would cut corners on anything. The cooling system used for the Jaguar for instance is a very interesting design, but again i see fins and microchannels... I know the army use watercooling on some equipments, they have specialist engineers who develop full board WB's for their rackable computer boards, those look a lot like what EK does.
I have seen that kind of tube rad (from what i guess on limited photos we have for now) but it was for liquid-to-liquid heat exchangers, not liquid-to-air. As air has a very very low density and heat capacity (well, compared to water), the heat transfer coefficient has to be improved by huge surface area, and that where fins come in. I'm curious to see a proper closeup of their tubes, what counts is the total surface area exposed to airflow, and of course the air flow itself.
(edit) and what kind of exchangers are there on the Bugatti Veyron for example ? We know they spared no expense on R&D on that project and selling the cars almost at cost, just for them being technological demonstrators.

For avionics testing, we use simple cold plates. Ducted air is also used - very simple solutions but the purpose is just to keep the hardware within spec. I've also seen full board blocks on boards that consisted of a coldplate plus gap filler (looks like a really big thermal pad). Server rooms have large dedicated AC units.

[sabe]

You don't seem to have gotten my point... you can not say a company is ripping someone off unless you know their exact production cost and profit margin. There is just no way to know.

They could barely be breaking even with a product that costs twice the market average. If a company is barely breaking even, how are they ripping people off?

It appears that you are using the term ripoff to refer to when a product costs more than other products that perform the same function... that is a common misnomer, but it is not the case. A ripoff is a form of fraud, intentionally overpricing a product to "steal" money from your customers.

Since we do not know Feser's production cost, we can not determine whether they are ripping people off.

Not to mention time spent researching & developing a product. Pricey yes, ripoff no. And even if they chose to sell a product for twice of what it cost to produce it, I really don't see that as a ripoff either.

[gmat]

Also, your res's are not overpriced - they are quality! Rolexes are watches... seriously a $10k watch... but they don't make false claims that I know of. Could you imagine getting a lemon Rolex?

I work in Switzerland and if i ask the local watches amateurs what they think about Rolex i can learn swiss "coloured language" I'm no watch amateur myself but from what i hear they are nowhere near the quality chronograph watches made by local manufacturers, which are themselves expensive but not as much as Rolex.. The difference lies in marketing and "image de marque".

For avionics testing, we use simple cold plates. Ducted air is also used - very simple solutions but the purpose is just to keep the hardware within spec. I've also seen full board blocks on boards that consisted of a coldplate plus gap filler (looks like a really big thermal pad).

Interesting. But in avionics dont you profit from a great natural airflow by chance ? This would compensate the lesser surface area of exchange.

Server rooms have large dedicated AC units.

I know right, but that's a generality. IBM does watercooled server rooms where the whole room heat is transferred to water then carried out, and even watercooled servers. The Cray Jaguar uses a phase change system for each rack. I know they dont have the same considerations as us (dissipation in a smaller surface area with less noise) although car manufacturers have similar concerns, they have to transfer a lot of heat in a limited volume with limited airflow conditions. That's why i mentioned the Veyron (or other supercars would fit) as it has like 11 radiators, i guess if they could save weight or amount of radiators by increasing efficiency they would have done it.

[StAndrew]

Its very easy for us to pass judgment on a company we dont run... Waterlooged, yes Feser may have used some questionable tactics in their marketing, however it may have been the product of an over zealous owner rather than a crooked minded thief. Thanks for pointing out the facts and insuring new users are made aware of the dangers in blindly following marketing hype, however there is a fine line between "informing the ignorant" and "beating a dead horse." The fact that you are bashing a company on a product not yet released leads me to believe you are just being a hater, which unfortunately discredits your credibility. Let the radiator get released and reviewed and let the facts speak for themselves. We might just be pleasantly surprised.

Looking at the design, I doubt round tubes will ever outperform flat tubes in terms of surface area. However, after looking over this great link/PDF: http://www.wieland-thermalsolutions....ohrewat_08.pdf, I saw some round tubes with fins INSIDE. Im not sure how much this cost, however, this design could certainly rival flat tubes. However again, I dont think this alone will be able to surpass flat tubing to the point of obsolescence. Unless Feser is able to really really REALLY come out on top in terms of performance, or keep production cost down, I dont see this as becoming a new fad. I think it would have been better for Feser to keep the Xchanger and release this rad in conjunction, phasing out the Xchanger as the Admiral series becomes popular.

[NKrader]

Looking at the design, I doubt round tubes will ever outperform flat tubes in terms of surface area. However, after looking over this great link/PDF: http://www.wieland-thermalsolutions....ohrewat_08.pdf, I saw some round tubes with fins INSIDE. Im not sure how much this cost, however, this design could certainly rival flat tubes. However again, I dont think this alone will be able to surpass flat tubing to the point of obsolescence.

if you look at the pictures you can see that it is a hybrid of both flat tubes and round tubes.

you can see "normal" finned rad behind the tubes.

[Martinm210]

However, after looking over this great link/PDF: http://www.wieland-thermalsolutions....ohrewat_08.pdf, I saw some round tubes with fins INSIDE.

Thanks for the link, I had no idea there were soo many tube/fin options out there...I wouldn't mind having a roll of that to plumb my whole system in..

[turtletrax]

Dazmode has a Canadian watercooling store and he has some pics of the retail box allong with a guestimate on price. I PMed him and he said he cant see the single being more than $99 CAD and also said he doesnt see them being more than the X-Changers on release.

http://www.dazmode.com/store/index.p...roducts_id=871

On the box you can see "nano" something in the print. I wonder what that is? I hope it is not marketing hype (please wait until Skinnee reviews).

[anzial]

You don't seem to have gotten my point...

And you've missed mine. I'm just thinking from business point of view - there's no point in releasing product and pricing it at cost, i.e. not earning anything on it. There's such practice as dumping but it's really not an option in such a small market as watercooling. I mean, unless its priced below competition (which it won't) with the goal of kicking everyone else out of radiator manufacturing business, I bet you a $100 against $1 they are getting a profit, and it will be a nice profit (of course, it's a safe bet as we'll never know what are the profit margins/production costs). Admiral line is clearly aimed at very small group of people who either fall for bling-bling or value performance advantage above everything else (at this point its not clear, which one it is).

Again, this is just down-to-earth, common business sense, not some abstract scenario like you are proposing. I've got nothing against Feser but based on its past behavior, they are clearly profit-oriented and not enthusiasts like you, who go into business to produce high-quality products and sell them at near cost without earning much profit (which is not to say you don't want to make money but you don't seem to possess corporate american mentality where profit margins reign supreme).

[Waterlogged]

Its very easy for us to pass judgment on a company we dont run... Waterlooged, yes Feser may have used some questionable tactics in their marketing, however it may have been the product of an over zealous owner rather than a crooked minded thief. Thanks for pointing out the facts and insuring new users are made aware of the dangers in blindly following marketing hype, however there is a fine line between "informing the ignorant" and "beating a dead horse." The fact that you are bashing a company on a product not yet released leads me to believe you are just being a hater, which unfortunately discredits your credibility. Let the radiator get released and reviewed and let the facts speak for themselves. We might just be pleasantly surprised.

Looking at the design, I doubt round tubes will ever outperform flat tubes in terms of surface area. However, after looking over this great link/PDF: http://www.wieland-thermalsolutions....ohrewat_08.pdf, I saw some round tubes with fins INSIDE. Im not sure how much this cost, however, this design could certainly rival flat tubes. However again, I dont think this alone will be able to surpass flat tubing to the point of obsolescence. Unless Feser is able to really really REALLY come out on top in terms of performance, or keep production cost down, I dont see this as becoming a new fad. I think it would have been better for Feser to keep the Xchanger and release this rad in conjunction, phasing out the Xchanger as the Admiral series becomes popular.

Not sure what happened to the first time I posted this but here goes again.

*sigh* Mind enlightening me as to what you read as "bashing"? I've said absolutely nothing negative about this product so far but, I will if it'll make all of you feel better.

As for the PDF, yes, there are some interesting things in it and those "internal fins" is actually rifling that supposedly promotes turbulence within the tube.

[iandh]

And you've missed mine. I'm just thinking from business point of view - there's no point in releasing product and pricing it at cost, i.e. not earning anything on it. There's such practice as dumping but it's really not an option in such a small market as watercooling. I mean, unless its priced below competition (which it won't) with the goal of kicking everyone else out of radiator manufacturing business, I bet you a $100 against $1 they are getting a profit, and it will be a nice profit (of course, it's a safe bet as we'll never know what are the profit margins/production costs). Admiral line is clearly aimed at very small group of people who either fall for bling-bling or value performance advantage above everything else (at this point its not clear, which one it is).

And I'm not? I've run a successful watercooling business for nearly four years.

My original point still stands... we can not tell if a company is ripping anyone off, unless we know their production cost.

If one company's retail price is higher than another company's retail price for a given product, it does not mean they have a higher profit margin.

I didn't imply anywhere in any of my posts that Feser wasn't profiting... all I said was we have no way of knowing how much they're profiting.

Again, this is just down-to-earth, common business sense, not some abstract scenario like you are proposing. I've got nothing against Feser but based on its past behavior, they are clearly profit-oriented and not enthusiasts like you, who go into business to produce high-quality products and sell them at near cost without earning much profit (which is not to say you don't want to make money but you don't seem to possess corporate american mentality where profit margins reign supreme).

What part of my scenario is abstract?

Also, any business is profit oriented... some more than others. I probably fall towards the lesser end of the scale. Feser may fall towards the greater end of the scale, but none of us have any way to tell unless the owner chose to open his books for all to see.

edit: I'm not saying you're wrong, just that I have no way of telling who is right or wrong, and neither does anyone else, besides an educated guess. I know for a fact that some products in this industry have HORRIBLE margins, and I've heard it straight from the horse's mouth. I also know that some products have AMAZING margins... and it's almost impossible to guess sometimes which is which.