The Ethics of Overclocking

[Sil3ntSnip3a]

End the arguments. Get together, unite. Set some new rules.

I will use an example from the country I live in. Did the US constitution settle itself in the first set of rules it came up with... No, rather those rules led into the discovery of other needed rules.

So like I said,

End the arguments. Get together, unite. And set some new rules to get the sport back into what it used to be!

I am no pro-clocker but I know that arguments aren't going to settle anything at anytime!

[Buckeye]

I totally agree with Mike, Dave, Computard and others here.

There is a huge reform that needs to take place, including everything from ES CPU's, to whats allowed in OS and Software tweeks etc.

Fact is in live comps much of this stuff will get caught, but online comps and HWBOT, FM so much can get by its not funny. Example... nothing stops a person form photoshoping a screen and uploading it to the bot and getting points. Hardware sharing, shared scores etc can all get by.

Much of this will pass even human eyes and checking as long the person doing the cheat is careful.

It is also becoming more and more clear that a lot of funny stuff has been going on in the past and cleaning all that up is a huge task, if not impossible.

But I kid you not, all this stuff is spreading around and effecting what a lot think of this sport.

My feeling and that of others I talk with is this whole thing is a stacked deck with everything from special binned CPU's used in online comps, to achiving top ranks on the bot. The advantages became very clear to those who had these nice toys, and how they were being used.

Its just me but I feel the whole way we enter scores, how they are valadiated and the rules need a complete revamp, to make it very clear what is allowed and what isn't.

Valid's also need a huge rework, it needs to be tied to the machine the bench was run on and perhaps with a built in screen that the Valid program takes and includes in a file. Name of the machine it was registered with, the OS files used. Lets use that information that we allready have available on each machine and make that stand out clear as a bell so its clear as day if the same score was used on different machines.

All this can all that be faked, I am sure, but lets make it hard to do.
It should be clear as day if LOD or other such things are used, and that should be dectected by the validating program and displayed as such.

Bringing up all these past examples of what so and so did is not helpping this thread at all, unless its used as an example on how to fix a problem. Show a way that all these past problems can be fixed so that something good can come out of this, instead of rehashing the same o'l stuff over and over again.

All this is just imo and I am just saying is all, take it for what its worth and no harm ment against anyone. But its some of the many reasons I do not play this game anymore.

[Hyperhorn]

Ok, I´m quoting massman here, but it´s rather a general statement and not a direct answer in the first place.

In general about software tweaking.

The key element of overclocking is, obviously, tuning hardware systems to get more performance. I see where people want to innovate by finding new tweaks and software enhancements, but I honestly don't see why this should be made a part of competitive overclocking. I mentioned this in another thread before: when it becomes okay to optimise all software endlessly, where does it end? I mean, if there's no problem with mipmap, then why would there be a problem with wireframe? Why not just remove parts of the DX10 library so the VGA can render the scene even faster? I cannot see myself in an overclocking competition having to rely on a software engineer to hack the benchmark and remove as much as possible just to get a higher score. In fact, this defeats the whole purpose of overclocking and the hobby should then be called 'software hacking'.

As long as we (= "the community") are focused on the results (points/calculation time) and not on the clock frequencies you finished a benchmark with, the term overclocking seems to be wrong from the very beginning - it´s benchmarking actually. Overclocking is just a powerful tool and important task you have to do to be good at benchmarking. Therefore it should not be overrated. Tweaking just refers to the part you´re focusing on : What do you need to be able to overclock something? Yes, it`s hardware and you try to get it working the way you like it. ...and what do you need to be able to bench? Yes, it´s software and you try to get it working the way you like it.

The uncertainty about software tweaking is, that it seems to be invisible. There´s no program called Tweaking-Z, but people check CPU-Z and GPU-Z on the screenshots and if the benchmark results seems to be out of the line for the shown clock frequencies, you will see them questioning the software optimization most of the time. If the clock frequencies don´t seem match to the result, the extra performance seems to come from nowhere, but of course it isn´t. I think this is one of main reasons why software tweaking gets often pushed into a shady, voodoo-like corner. But chew* demonstrated here, that also hardware optimizations are often not recognised correctly (and there are many more of them).

Software optimizations ends there where you can literally get any score you want (e.g. speedhack [or photoshop omptimization ]), as long as you have some kind of score scaling (in sense of applying the same tweak on the identical higher overclocked system will lead to a better score) it should be considered as a tweak. THEN we can start to differ about the legitimateness of certain tweaks or tweaking methods. And if someone (this is the crux) decides a tweak is not legitimate to use for benchmarking, then it´s a non-legitimate tweak and should not be used where someone´s rules are binding. It´s the same on the hardware level: Manipulating the quartz is one thing, using LHe/LN2 is another thing (As some of you remember extreme cooling methods were also called "cheats" once...) and so on.

[knopflerbruce]

If a dude is photoshopping alot, he WILL get caught -you jsut can't do that alot without mistakes. And if you get caught, it doesn't help if you have alot of clean (or maybe clean looking) screenshots.

HW sharing is a different story, though.

[mike]

Get your facts straight and then start to write this type of BS comments

....
....
If I am totally wrong on some part, I can then read the whole thread.

I didn't get a chance to read all the comments, but I just want to say this quickly:

I am sorry to have brought this up - I DO NOT THINK YOU HAVE CHEATED!
A million sorrys for having used gooc2008 as an example.

My interpretation of LOD and MIPMAP:

LOD adjust the complexity of the MIPMAPs to be calculated. "MIPMAP" tweak/cheat just says Don't calculate ANY complexity of the MIPMAPs.

Not sure what the real impact is, but eg LOD 10 = render 25% of the mipmap complexity. "MIPMAP Tweak/cheat" = 0% rendering of the MIPMAPs.

SO let's hash this out. Not my rules, but the rules of the community.


And this is just the perfect example where the ethics will fall short of making a ruling of right or wrong. Why is it OK to reduce the MIPMAP complexity to a certain point, but not all the way?

[cadaveca]

Ethical?


If you join a team, your team is the only body that receives points. No scoring for individuals within that team. Team want to run in competition, they choose driver for that event. The team is considered an individual entity, like your hands ahve many fingers. And like a hand, fingers are joined to it, and cannot work without it.

Want to share hardware? Go ahead! Your team only receives points for best score in each "bench", so hardware sharing is encouraged! It's no different than is someone with a big wallet did lots of binning.

Teams run events to qualify thier driver. If the chosen driver cannot make an event, the secondary steps in.

More ethics?

You work in the industry, you don't compete. The past 10 years have earned those interested in clocking earn you the highest spot...Overclocking God. You set the rules, judge the competitions, and play amongst yourselves, and leave the lesser man to do his thing. If the gods want to compete up in Olympus, well, no lesser man can stop them...nor can he think of competing either.


Want to compete? Well guess what? These events cost money. Hardware isn't cheap. Guess who's gonna pay for it? The organizer? Why?

You compete, you pay to enter. Proceeds go to prizes and event costs. Guys with big wallets can enter on thier own, and teams can pool funds to get thier driver in the race. If an OEM would like to sponsor a team...fine...but only with cash...


Nobody is gonna pony up large fees to compete, and then cheat. Especially as a team...if the entry fee is prohibitive enough. But who knows..maybe I'm wrong, and "cheating" would be far more rampant.

[Charles Wirth]

Petri and Elmor used LOD in 2008.

Eric and I used LOD in 2009 because we lost to LOD in 2008.

We had SF3D and Elmor killed on clocks were we should have won on Mhz alone but we lost to a LOD registry tweak only known by Elmor.

So Massman when you say my name, dont forget to include Elmor and Petri.

[Computurd]

I like that point of view. alot. ^^(post 131)
and also buckeyes idea of a verification tool of some sort. kinda like punkbuster, but applied to systems. interesting.
FM should really look into a sort of system like that to eliminate aot of BS.

[Buckeye]

buckeyes idea of a verification tool of some sort. kinda like punkbuster, but applied to systems. interesting.
FM should really look into a sort of system like that to eliminate aot of BS.

I was not thinking of a verification tool per say, but rather have it built into the benching program itself.

Many things about a system can be checked, just like how MS does a verification check on a Windows setup and combines that data with a OS Key for a valid install. This is how MS knows when you have changed hardware and forces you to do a new validation.

Information such as each hardware ID, the name used to install the OS on a machine, plus a list of drivers used and even further getting a list of services that were run.

All that information is not hard to get, but you end up with a system spec used to run a bench.

Now we have to run a bench and layout a whole assortment of other programs screens to be included in the final screen that is submitted. Why cant the bench program itself show all this in one nice and easy to read screen that is included in the bench dump file that would be used to submit a score.

What ever website people upload to could run a scan on the uploaded file before its allowed to be posted, if a cheat is found they could do what ever they wish with that information.


On to LOD, its just me but I think a benching program was made to be run a what ever settings the bench uses, and adjusting those to reduce detail or other aspects should not be allowed. To me that is far from a tweak but altering how a bench gets its score.

Stripped down OS's is also another gray line to me as it becomes very difficult to compare results. vs a stock OS install that has a known checksum.

If this is done we now have the ability to search all scores and compare results, showing perhaps hardware sharing, multiple scores submited on same machines.

And if you enclude in the GPU driver/settings you will be able to see LOD and other tweaks used.

The picture I have in my mind is like a NASCAR race, where all cars are equal, or as close as the rules allow, with some areas that can be changed on the setup. This makes for a good race and a winner who has done a good job vs people with equipment like ES cpus and cherry binned stuff who dominate.

The main thing is we all want to win a comp, #1 spot, etc. but why bother racing or even showing up if you will have no chance because the playing field is not level.

I am also concerned that in certian corners of this sport, be it people who run websites we all use, or contacts from manufactures have a different agenda than this, its to cover up and protect the terf they have. From back door ES sales to bot positions and how some of those positions are gotten.

[hipro5]

Petri and Elmor used LOD in 2008.

Eric and I used LOD in 2009 because we lost to LOD in 2008.

We had SF3D and Elmor killed on clocks were we should have won on Mhz alone but we lost to a LOD registry tweak only known by Elmor.

So Massman when you say my name, dont forget to include Elmor and Petri.

LOD and 2k1 "fits"
LOD and Vantage, simply "doesn't fit"......

[BenchZowner]

Some of you shouldn't play the ethical type of guy roles...
The curtain will fall soon, and then everyone will see who are the ethical guys, who lied and keep telling lies, and who knew stuff they should've reported, yet they decided to close their eyes and shut their mouth.

[trans am]

Some of you shouldn't play the ethical type of guy roles...
The curtain will fall soon, and then everyone will see who are the ethical guys, who lied and keep telling lies, and who knew stuff they should've reported, yet they decided to close their eyes and shut their mouth.

theres a hollywood rumor that Bob Seger used to overclock back in the day with Xtremesystems Veteran, Oppainter. Apparently Oppainter wrote the lyrics on an overclocked commodore 64. then bob seger performed it. it became such a big hit that Martin Brest the director wanted to use the same song for an upcoming sequel to the box office smash hit starring eddie murphy known as "beverly hills cop 2"

Benchzoner's post made me think of it.

it goes like this:

Bob Seger Shakedown Lyrics:
No matter what you
think you pull
you'll find it's not enough

No matter who you
think you know
you won't get through.
It's a given L.A. law
someone's faster on the draw

No matter where you hide
I'm comin' after you.

No matter how the race is run
it always ends the same

Another room
without a view
awaits downtown.
You can shake me for a while
live it up in style

No matter what you do
I'm going to take you down.

Shake down
break-down
take down

everybody wants into
the crowded light

Break-down
take down
you're busted.
let down your guard
honey

just about the
time you think
that it's alright

Break-down
take down
you're busted.

This is a town
where everyone
is reachin' for
the top

This is a place
where second best
will never do.
It's O.K. you want to shine

but once you step
across that line

No matter where you hide
I'm comin' after you.

Shake down
break-down
take down

everybody wants into
the crowded light

Break-down
take down
you're busted.
Shake down
break-down
honey

just about the time
you think that it's
alright

Break-down
take down
you're busted.

Shake down
break-down
take down

everybody wants into
the crowded light
. . .
Shake down
break-down
take down

everybody wants into
the crowded light
. . .
Shake down
break-down
take down

everybody wants into
the crowded light
. . .
Shakedown
Break-down
you're busted



I also heard a rumor that former cheater onepagebook is actually Andre Yang. can anyone verify this one?

[SF3D]

LOD and 2k1 "fits"
LOD and Vantage, simply "doesn't fits"......

In 2008 benchmark was 3DM06 where LOD is usable. In 2009, when we lost, it was Vantage and I have no idea how someone could use LOD with it.

I think this part of the discussion already died yesterday, so do not continue.

The topic is about ethics in overclocking, whatever it means.

Petri and Elmor used LOD in 2008.
Eric and I used LOD in 2009 because we lost to LOD in 2008.
We had SF3D and Elmor killed on clocks were we should have won on Mhz alone but we lost to a LOD registry tweak only known by Elmor.

Yes, we used LOD in 2008 with 3DM06= correct
No, you did not have higher clocks on 3DM06. Our CPU was clocked highest of them all. VGA's were 25MHz less than your setup= so this in not correct
No, you did not use LOD with DX10 test Vantage in 2009= not correct

I am happy that you said the first part, so now I have got what I wanted. Thanks!
Case cleared from our part, so I will forget it for good.

[Movieman]

I've been reading and following this and I swear to God I wish I could reach out and shake some sense into all of you and I mean almost all.
Keep rehashing back and forth who did what when and you will get nowhere.

Tell me,do you want the hobby to thrive or do you want to sit here and politely and not so politely piss at one another?
Is everyone so set on "having the last word" that this will go on forever.
Let's see some of the big names in our hobby suck it up and be the first to back off on the you did this I did thatcrapand lets move forward shall we?

I'll be blunt,lets stop the BS and try and come up with a set of rules that will work and keep the competitions fair and even for all.
Othewrwise I'm going to polish my hammer and start being Dave the Admin and I don't like playing the heavy..
Work as friends huh?
I'm politely asking you all to start acting like the friends you used to be.
Thank you.

[Shahryar_NEO]

very nice to see topics like this in OC community . thanks mike for the idea .

What is the philosophy of overclocking in your point of view ?

It's a hobby ? It's a serious work ? Why do you overclock for the most ?

we've to show our REAL purposes from overclocking first and after that discussing about how we could agree with new rules , how to compete and etc .

the bot is a for profit organization

Yes ! It is for profit .

I thought like you before but after a deeper thinking my idea changed .

Do you think that a good website runs with donating or their wallet paying ? If you want to see a good website , good coding , nice designing , fast server , ... It NEEDs MONEY ! see my friend just for a normal server on a big forums you need at least 200$ with server managing , etc . Admins should pay it from their wallets ?

It's not ashaming that working for getting money . If you enjoyed to use facebook , google , youtube and etc I've to say most of them is alive for money and working for it . what's the problem ? they're helping you and gets the money .

I want to separate these two : 1) works hard and fair and get money 2) getting money via every way it's possible ! ( like telling lie to the others ) .

If we just attack HWBOT for they're working for money maybe the only thing will change is we'll not see their effort anymore from them . I want to say if we w

we've to discussing about how we could work together . WE i mean companies and ociers . that pro leage and amateur suggestion in hwbot forums was one thing I was looking about . Company pros has to be excluded from normal ranking ( ES too . )

the reality is manufacturers could easily cheat and at the most times they'll cheat because we're talking about a VERY VERY VERY HUGE money . But how they could cheat easily ? So Easy ! with changing retail code to ES or more simple makes some special retail chips for ociers . ( I think AMD did this before ) .

We cannot tell me to stop your profit because of ethics . we've to find a way to persuade their marketing and also don't play unfair like that pro league in hwbot and normal ones and etc .

Another think I want to tell is about software tweaking that some one tells it has to be NO OS and Software tweaking .

what is the overclock ? how much knowledge is playing role in our overclocking ? we need to just change some settings to find the best one and a very little electronic skills . So what will makes the differences of a good overclocker and the normal one in a live event for example ?

specially when CPUs and other components are not similar and luck rules .

[trans am]

I've been reading and following this and I swear to God I wish I could reach out and shake some sense into all of you and I mean almost all.
Keep rehashing back and forth who did what when and you will get nowhere.

Tell me,do you want the hobby to thrive or do you want to sit here and politely and not so politely piss at one another?
Is everyone so set on "having the last word" that this will go on forever.
Let's see some of the big names in our hobby suck it up and be the first to back off on the you did this I did thatcrapand lets move forward shall we?

I'll be blunt,lets stop the BS and try and come up with a set of rules that will work and keep the competitions fair and even for all.
Othewrwise I'm going to polish my hammer and start being Dave the Admin and I don't like playing the heavy..
Work as friends huh?
I'm politely asking you all to start acting like the friends you used to be.
Thank you.

Movieman, I just spent the entire day with my friend dr kim all day inside at his apt in midtown helping him setup his new overpriced watercooling crap for his 24/7 rig. I was there from 3pm till almost 1am doing this. We had his main rig pulled apart and I started telling him about this particular thread and the andre yang story and all this drama. He hasnt really focused on overclocking seriously since the neo2/dfi ut-nf4 ultra-d 939 bh5-ut/tccd days but I keep him informed from time to time. He showed me his new ipad and i was fooling around with it and the 1st thing I did was log into this thread so he could read it. (take note this guy hasnt been active in here since 2005 or so. ) He read the whole thing and he says, "alvin, Andre Yang is One page book..he just changed his name on the forums.." I laughed so hard I pissed my pants. one page book was the guy we used to sorta wonder about even though we would share settings on certain boards (particularly the neo2 msi and gskill ram that had samsung tccd ics) then we were always like "this dude has all this new computer crap and we assumed his mom paid for everything." all I remember was hipro5 kinc shimino, oppainter were the serious rippers that stood out back then. this newer guy, OPB had all this new computer crap all the time and dr kim and I were like how the hell does this guy get all this rad computer sht? whatever. it didnt last long. I sorta got further away from overclocking after that for about 2 years. I had a new lady and she took up all my energy. then I came back into focus again when the core2 duo came out. I dr kim bought a e8400 and a evga board and a decent kit of D9 ddr2 and a pair of 8800gt's and he was overclocking again. then he got a girlfriend and she took over. so I was on my own again. and it went back and forth like that for a while until I bought this copper pot on ebay and got into the heavy-duty .

dr kim calls me last night and He just bought a $1000 cpu and probably the most extravagant computer hardware arsenal ive ever seen. So he's back in here again so thats rad. and he's a doctor and he's an old member and you guys would like him. Anyways my point is Dr. kim said after the andre yang / OPB joke he read this thread some more and started pointing out old guys he remembered from the forums back in the day. Movieman was the 1st one he remembered and he goes " movieman is still here? man everyone is getting in this thread." he says damn, boblemagnifique too? thats the french guy with the water chiller who was always nice to us and he changed my view of french people. then he sees hipro5 in here and was all "wow hes still ripping? I bought that ram voltage ddr1 booster from him for the bh5 kits. *btw I saw it today while i was helping him organize his old hardware...
I bought the ocz ddr booster. remember this? i still have it. the other day I was like god..I wish I had all that old hardware back again to bench on ln2. I was just a kid and and didnt have money or balls an was scared. how fun would it be to go back and take all that old hardware and see what its real potential was? maybe I had a golden chip the whole time but all I had was watercooling because I was too scared...

1st subzero experience:
I contacted this guy named Reginald Wing Jr. (chilly1) he was a hvac specialist in nevada originally from the east coast who was dealt some of the worst possible hands in the card game of life, he basically lost everything he had. when most people wouldve commited suicide, it made him a stronger man and he kept going and eventually moved to nevada to start a new life. I'm not sure how he got involved with charles (Fugger ) but everytime I spoke with him he was so stoked about Fugger (charles) "charles got this new prescott and he got it to 5.6ghz!" i'm doing your rig and its awesome and almost ready!

here: http://hwbot.org/community/submissio...60_25sec_990ms

that was a seriously rad overclock then and everyone was all "prescott overheats and amd is better.. fugger ripped that chip up and I remember like it was yesterday on that phone conversation with reggie (chilly1). He was so stoked about it. charles got it that day and was one of the 1st to get one and just overclocked the crap out of it.. ( it was like the equivalent of getting 7ghz on a i3 at that time.. ) I think he got it even higher.

back to the story...


Next: I tell reggie about this idea i had to use a coolermaster stacker case with a small single stage unit in the bottom of the case. hes makes it for me.. its the raddest thing ive ever seen and im so stoked to get it. he puts this lcd thermometer in and sent me all this insulation and a heating element w molex off one one charles's old vapochills. its a fricken masterpiece! then I set it up and end up bending one of the capillary tubes and all the gas leakes out. I felt so bad cause he really put his heart into this thing. I finally told him what happened and he was so cool about it. "just send it back, by that time reggie had all these guys calling him to make single stage units and cascades. I think OPB even bought one?
He had so many orders and got in over his head and couldnt meet the demand and everyone was pissed and didnt get their units and he probably already used the money to buy parts, pay the mortgage etc. and then they all want their money back. So in return for trying to be totally legitimate he gets a bad rep on the forums and there are all these mean threads about him..

I felt so bad cause I knew he was a truly good person and he was just doing all he could handle. I never asked for that unit back or when are you gonna fix it? It didnt matter. I didnt care. I just wanted to him to get through that whole mess. I hope he's okay and made it out of that. we havent been in touch but I wonder at times how hes doing. and some of the other guys like Eric (Oppainter), and Tom Holck? fricken legends when I started overclocking!
dr kim asked me hows opp doing? I didnt know what to say..
we got into this conversation about how eric used to have that avatar of him with the sunglasses on and just looked so rad and cool...

like tom cruise in risky business but he overclocked so he was actually way cooler than tom cruise could ever be. ...basically was the Vince (kingpin) of that era.



then I stop clocking for a year and he's like old news. these guys were what pushed me to overclock and made it exciting. what the hell? are numbers that important? they are just numbers? these are real people with real feelings and they spent countless hours pushing the limits and helping others. and they are just gone all of a sudden??

it made me appreciate who is still in here and after all the crap and so many have pulled the plug you are loyal and you're still overclocking.


I know at this point this thread has gone so many ways.
I just want to say this thread pulled so many familiar faces together who have been around since I started overclocking. its just good to see you all in here. I joked around earlier to lighten up the thread but today when dr kim mentioned all these old members and I saw the nostalgia on his face. this thread opened my eyes and made me think of the old times and see you guys are still around.
@
movieman
mike
boblemagnifique
hipro5
dumo
ghz
charlie
charles

I dont know why i wrote this but I just started typing and I've had a few beers and the old memories started pouring out. I hope you guys can feel the good times we've all had overclocking together and makes you remember why you overclock in the 1st place. Its not the clocks guys.. it can all get wiped out in a second. I havent never seen all of you together in a single thread in the history of xs. just the fact that you are in here says a lot that you are serious about overclocking and its important to you and you dont want to see it go to hell. this thread was long overdue. it had to happen.
@movieman please dont say its all nonsense you are not seeing the big picture. yeah it might be off topic half the time but Ive ive never seen anything close to this sheer emotion. Its ironic that a thread about dishonesty can bring out the the truth about everyone.

[chew*]

I have a simple interjection here.

If LOD = FM valid rejected then LOD = cheat......If LOD needs renamed.exe then LOD = cheat.

So i guess if the bench wasn't 01/03/05 then I see not how you can justify it over mipmap.....

It's a simple philosophy......and petri being that you are part of HWbot staff you should know this.

Please feel free to deny this or shall I point you to deleted MOAA qualifying results due to those renaming EXE to use LOD.

[Monstru]

So, I'm off. Gonna weep a bit on my Yacht. Maybe I'll even take my personal jet to Sin City and gamble my tears away.

profit ...

Don't waste your breath Pieter, some folks just have too look in every direction just because they do not want to see the problem that is standing right under their nose

If LOD = FM valid rejected then LOD = cheat.

Results with LOD are valid on FM, in the benchmarks where you can use it

[SF3D]

I have a simple interjection here.

If LOD = FM valid rejected then LOD = cheat......If LOD needs renamed.exe then LOD = cheat.

So i guess if the bench wasn't 01/03/05 then I see not how you can justify it over mipmap.....

It's a simple philosophy......and petri being that you are part of HWbot staff you should know this.

Please feel free to deny this or shall I point you to deleted MOAA qualifying results due to those renaming EXE to use LOD.

So, there is always some new person who will continue to talk about old stuff

Well, your post is wrong in most parts. FM does not reject LOD and the scores done on LOD are not banned from the database because of that. The issue is ATI Drivers, which does not allow LOD to be adjusted over some very small value, 0,5 or so. If you like to use LOD with ATI you need to use registry values, so you really have to know what you are doing. LOD just does not work correctly, if driver see 3DM06.exe to be used. It is propably because 3DM06 use different rendering method, where LOD is not possible to apply.

Renaming exe does not alter the original benchmark anyway, but it affect the way, that graphics driver behave with some certain benchmark. Renaming of the executable is not allowed in to FM database for really obvious reasons.

We still need to use renaming with some games etc, to make drivers work properly. Like the latest Final Fantasy benchmark needs to be renamed to Crysis.exe so the SLI will work like it should. Sometimes Nvidia drivers does not work, even you change rendering method from the control panel.

Sum up: Renaming .exe does not alter data or benchmark. Using LOD with ATI graphics card is no way cheating. If ATI does not directly support LOD adjusting, it does not make it a cheat.

E: LOD is not the same as MIPMAP, so using argument about ATI disallowing LOD and that meaning a cheat, does not work.

[chew*]

Don't waste your breath Pieter, some folks just have too look in every direction just because they do not want to see the problem that is standing right under their nose





Results with LOD are valid on FM

really.....explain MOAA qualifications than. Also explain there rule of benchmarks must not be altered. Also explain rule on hwbot where benchmarks must not be altered.

Very simple question.......can you run LOD without renaming exe

Ahhh I know a tweak petri i can do via registry and it passes validation. Guess it's ok to use than and i don't have to alter bench.

http://service.futuremark.com/compare?3dm06=9428501

http://service.futuremark.com/compare?3dm06=9750765

My take on 06 and LOD.......locks are in place for honest people......people who want to steal/cheat will not be deterred by locks. It was a feeble attempt for them to stop LOD, they finally got it right in vantage.

[Movieman]

You try and try and try but sometimes you need to hammer the point home.

[SoF]

I bought the ocz ddr booster. remember this? i still have it.

I have mine laying around somewhere here - maaaan back in the days OCZ used to be a great company for Overclockers (which changed dramatically imo...)

Well guys just some thoughts here:
When hwbot was introduced it became THE place for collecting OC-results and gave us some new rules. They invented a system for an OC-league, hardwaremasters and many things. Beginning of this year they released a new revision to meet the requirements of the growing hwbot (and therewith) oc-community - I was complaining a lot about the new rules (and still could do so when I would like to express my own POV all the time) as for me they didn't do what they were intended to do - everybody just got used to the "old" rules and then they changed...now we have 2 people at hwbot top spots in oc-league "close" together and the rest of the mob with not even half of the points behind...well ok let's leave it for hwbot to decide whether this is what they wanted or not...

...so getting back to XS as "the international oc-plattform" - when I started here there were people benching all kinds of cpus (3000+, 3200+ back in the days) and you could search for one and try to hunt him down. Then you went posting in his topics or posting your own thread with the results - everybody talked and discussed "what cb u have on your 3200+" or simply said "dääng you got me, need to push it more"...there was no real "topspot-competition"' no money involved, no prices - just somebody to hunt and that was how it started...can't we just get back to that point? Today we have dominating GT all the way and very few people bringing up real good things like this. Due to all this pushing for the top, people are afraid showing nice low-end cpus on dice or compressorcooled?
I remember me and miahallen benching 670's beginning of this year - we were booth half a second away from top but had fun pushing ourselves over and over again - that was overclocking like it should be, that's were it is fun, and only FUN!

I am staying away from EVERY manufacturer contest as there are always rules, circumstances, timeframes I don't like, I don't want to support

MSI, ASUS, Gigabyte they are all big enough to set up something like AOCM everybody can go there and bench side by side...this is the only way overclocking will stay overclocking in the "original kind"...I would have no problem paying the flight ticket on my own then!
If even a forum like AwardFabrik can set up a session like this (even we have no $$$$$$ laying under our beds) why it is so hard for mfc's to do also???
Turning off a monitor during AOCM-contest will lead you getting thrown out by 100 Overclockers right away...just that simple!

The problem is: they don't want to spend "real money" on such "marketing" they just make it as cheap as possible in the first place. Then a handfull choosen ones get to fly to some "exclusive" events in Taiwan or where ever...only a handfull people have a real good competition...

For me the current problems are NOT primary caused by the community but by the MFC's themselves...if they would make proper competitions together with some of the community who have experience in setting up great overclocking events (a big RESPECT at no_name at this point for all the great AOCM sessions!!!!) we wouldn't write pages by pages of "what is good and what is bad" ...

I mainly call for m.beier, massman, leeghoodf (albrecht the real belgian oc-king ) and neoforce - what do you think - AOCM / GOCM / MOCM (AsusOverclockingChampionchip, MSIOverclockingChampionchip, GigabyteOverclockingChampionchip) wouldn't that be the right approach to get everything back into the right way?

@dave while you are here: I'll have holidays in a week and my GF told me to leave computers behind in holidays - I need a one week ban 09.08.-15.08. please!!!

[mike]

@ Massman. Thank you for your reply. The point I have been trying to make is that if we want to play ethics, we can make everybody look bad if we want to. Let's not play ethics, but set down precise rules. ANd start playing again.

@ Movieman - thanks for trying to get on track.

@ Fugger -


@ everyone:

How about not talking about past mistakes, but making suggestions on how to fix the situation.


Everything has been a steady decline. Like Massman said, one of the biggest problem is nobody trust anyone anymore at this point. And I belive this distrust is also the cause that some people throw ethics aside and do what it takes to get even, and make things worse.

Let's take result sharing on the Hwbot for example. For years we have been hearing that team "A" has been doing this. Team "B" goes on a rampage about Team "A" but can't prove anything ( maybe because there never was anything ). Team "C" hears about the accusations of Team "B" and decides to get even with Team "A"...in the end everyone shares results. Eventually everyone gets immune to this behavior and everyone looses.

I have been bringing up examples of myself, were I threw away my own ethics, to get even, with situations where I thought injustice was done. In the US it's called Southern Justice. As the result of "he did this - Now I will do that " we are all going down. Let's not blame us, but again - let's try to fix things and move ahead.

[Movieman]

Thanks Mike, I'm trying..

Guys:
Lets steer this to making some good rules that all of you are comfortable with and although I'm clueless on the specifics I learn fast.

Lets start with Vantage:
What should and shouldn't be allowed?

[SoF]

Guys:
Lets steer this to making some good rules that all of you are comfortable with and although I'm clueless on the specifics I learn fast.

Lets start with Vantage:
What should and shouldn't be allowed?

Well I thought about that before but now that you bring it up:

- all optimizations based on driver level are allowed (meaning CCC or nvidia system control)
- LOD until +/- 15 allowed (talking about general not vantage specific)

everything else should just be pure clocks...