The Ethics of Overclocking

[Computurd]

and to blame andre for all of this is BS honestly. he was just playing a game that has a lack of rules, or rather, a lack of enforcement of the rules. The real responsibility lies with the people who have allowed such obvious rampant cheating to go on for this period of time!

[Sn0wm@n]

so instead of blaming the cheaters we must blame massman and its team at hwbot and futuremark ??? LOL

[Sil3ntSnip3a]

I would like to say something short and sweet! To keep overclocking within the boundaries of "overclocking" everything should be hardware related! Enough of this bull software tweaking. After all it's not called "softwareclocking" right... I'm way new to the overclocking community and working with hardware overclocks are plenty for me, but shouldn't I still have a shot at a spot? I can't even compete when these programming crazed fanatics software tweak.

Keep to the extreme sub-zero stuff and hardware only!!

Nuff said

[mike]

so instead of blaming the cheaters we must blame massman and its team at hwbot and futuremark ??? LOL

I think we shouldn't be looking so much for who to blame, but rather on how to fix the situtation that we are in. Maybe I am completely seeing things wrong, but somehow I feel that after each and every single overclocking competition there are people fighting and the community is getting more and more ripped apart.
I hear from friends within the competitve OC community all the time - about how dissillusioned they feel, and how ed up everything is these days.

How legends left and right wanna quit overclocking and so on...

I feel the same way. I feel less and less the desire to bench.

It's becoming meaningless


The only one to blame this situation that I am painting here - would be us as a community.

[Computurd]

so instead of blaming the cheaters we must blame massman and its team at hwbot and futuremark ??? LOL

Not entirely of course. Just about anyone reading this is aware of some of the things that go on with benchmarking, yet people set idly by and dont say or do anything about it. Like i said, I have no solutions.

But there are a few people here and there with the balls to stand up and say things when they see benchmarks that are obviously above and beyond the achievable, outside of 'illegal' tweaks.
Maybe there needs to be a few more individuals with the nerve to say it how it is, instead of being PC or worried about getting a bad rep. Or worried that they wont be 'cool' or get too 'hot'. Lol those are actual terms I have heard to describe it.

So whos to blame then? There are many many teams out there who do file sharing and hardware sharing, but they have to do it just to compete. It is so rampant that you have to actively participate in it to be able compete on a large scale. That alone shows you an entire breakdown in the system of rules and enforcement. Period.

Its kinda the rogue area of computing, overclocking is. Maybe its asking to much to set some sort of enforceable rules to it. It's just when it starts to become more of a 'sport' with manufacturers and competitions involved, that is where it is showing up as a sham. If it isnt fixed it might not grow any more than it already has, and with the price gouging many mfc's are putting on anything with an 'overclocking' label on it, maybe thats not a bad thing. Very subjective.

Look at poker for instance, once the staple in bars and back alley rooms etc, but now televised, World Poker Series or whatever the they call it. Now, can you visualize something like that for overclocking? Jesus, they have televised events of motorized robots with cutters on them trying to kill each other, so yea, of course it is possible. wouldnt that be great to have live TELEVISED overclocking events?

But, in order for these types of things to happen, you cant have the type of stuff happening that is now. It stifles the 'sport' aspect off it. Name one sport that is televised that doesnt have some sort of sanctioned governing body, with very clear cut rules?

Just saying in order to move forward, things would have to become more reliable.

[mike]

Its kinda the rogue area of computing, overclocking is. Maybe its asking to much to set some sort of enforceable rules to it. It's just when it starts to become more of a 'sport' with manufacturers and competitions involved, that is where it is showing up as a sham. If it isnt fixed it might not grow any more than it already has,

But, in order for these types of things to happen, you cant have the type of stuff happening that is now. It stifles the 'sport' aspect off it.

Just saying in order to move forward, things would have to become more reliable.

wow - what a great post! Our behaviour is really becoming more and more of a sham!

[Sn0wm@n]

I think we shouldn't be looking so much for who to blame, but rather on how to fix the situtation that we are in. Maybe I am completely seeing things wrong, but somehow I feel that after each and every single overclocking competition there are people fighting and the community is getting more and more ripped apart.
I hear from friends within the competitve OC community all the time - about how dissillusioned they feel, and how ed up everything is these days.

How legends left and right wanna quit overclocking and so on...

I feel the same way. I feel less and less the desire to bench.

It's becoming meaningless


The only one to blame this situation that I am painting here - would be us as a community.

the how to fix the situation is kind of hard without the assurance that the big players would cooperate ... FM,hwbot, and some board partners .... setting rules that clearly states the kind of tweaks people are allowed or not would be a start ...


say gigabyte has a special worldwide event and they want to allow certain type of registry tweaks ... by making it loud and clear in the rules that they allow only that sort of tweaking would be good in sort .... it wouldnt be labeled a gray area for that event ... or if they say its ilegal and they check the participants os before and after the run to make sure nothing has been done ilegaly the winner can claim his price .... but those kind of measure would be too hard to implement on a case by case basis .... i can only dream of such an honnest competition ....


the cheating that took place and will take place is kind of abusing gray area .... we see the same thing everyday in law oriented tv shows .... we know its not technically ilegal to do but morally some of us dont care because they know its not clearly stated has being ilegal ... so we should help the organisation that create events into making sure that they have clear rules for each event .....


it would be a good start into something more fun without damaging the sponsorship deals and all .....

Look at poker for instance, once the staple in bars and back alley rooms etc, but now televised, World Poker Series or whatever the they call it. Now, can you visualize something like that for overclocking? Jesus, they have televised events of motorized robots with cutters on them trying to kill each other, so yea, of course it is possible. wouldnt that be great to have live TELEVISED overclocking events?

But, in order for these types of things to happen, you cant have the type of stuff happening that is now. It stifles the 'sport' aspect off it. Name one sport that is televised that doesnt have some sort of sanctioned governing body, with very clear cut rules?

Just saying in order to move forward, things would have to become more reliable.

just like poker we need rules specific for each events ... written clearly saying you cant do this or can do that so that the people trying out in that competition know exactly months ahead of the kind of tweaks or not that is permited ..... say my strenght would be at os registry tweak and i can still oc nicely but nothing compared to the next guy ... but they clearly say in that even they support registry tweaks clearly on paper then its good because the competitiors could practice at home on tweaking their os or not ..... leveling the playing field .....

some casino have different rules then other but the spirit of the love for poker is still enjoyed by people of all ages ... oc' ing should be like that ... clear set of rules ... so no gray area could be exploited by people who might have different morals then the rest of the competitors

[mike]

@ snowman

Yes I agree. Let's lay down the ethics of overclocking now and start dancing!

I want the fun back - I wanna try to kick Hipro's booty one day. Live - with fair rules. And a good GAME!

The entire community has to want it too. Some players might have otehr motives, but maybe we can all end up at the same table - and create a better tune!

[Sn0wm@n]

@ snowman

Yes I agree. Let's lay down the ethics of overclocking now and start dancing!

I want the fun back - I wanna try to kick Hipro's booty one day. Live - with fair rules. And a good GAME!


The entire community has to want it too. Some players might have otehr motives, but maybe we can all end up at the same table - and create a better tune!

fair play is all about everyone having the same advantage ... a leveled playing field ....



non proffit oc'ing board of conduct ????? i love the sound of it ... with people elected from the community ... how's that sound?

[Eeky NoX]

@ snowman

Yes I agree. Let's lay down the ethics of overclocking now and start dancing!

I want the fun back - I wanna try to kick Hipro's booty one day. Live - with fair rules. And a good GAME!

The entire community has to want it too. Some players might have otehr motives, but maybe we can all end up at the same table - and create a better tune!

Hehe so we do Mike and also what I would be pleased with, is to see some great names back. Lot of people from the 1st gen OCers left the game or took distance, and not only for personal reasons I know ...just sad. Hope they will come back if the atmosphear get cleaned

It's a good start to see many many ppl envolved in the community trying to sit down and talk. The table must stay open here and the debate go on, on a constructive way. Thank you to have cleared your statements with MM, I really think nothing should be taken personnaly. This is just the future of our community and all the stuffs must be taken in a common mindset ! No flaming/blaming but learn to dance together without smashing our own feet

[trans am]

I say put it all out there for everyone to see. put what os works for each bench, what reg edits, lod settings, no. of cores to disable for given bench, best drivers etc. and the obvious ones like photoshop and sharing results and stealing links and ss are strictly enforced. You get the idea. honesty has nothing to hide. just put it all on the table for everyone to see and after that it all boils down to overclocking. there is no more who used hacks and who used this tweak and why is this score better?

in the end you can only blame yourself for not using the tweaks instead of blaming the guys that used them.

[Sn0wm@n]

there are some tweaks wich the community wouldnt want to be applied to competition but registry tweaks would be the most common i think ... since alot of people trim out their os for day to day use .... anyone think that a regulatory board would be a good idea ???

in the end you can only blame yourself for not using the tweaks instead of blaming the guys that used them.

exactly the idea i had ... if people want to use tweaks we should advertise them in events where the organiser support those ... if they dont then people will be forbiden to use them .... its a matter of making tools available for everyone ....

[Monstru]

What is the difference between MIPMAP and LOD again?

One is a cheat and the other is not. Period. Mipmap has been aroung for years. Overclockers do not use it because they all know it is a cheat.

Though I appreciate the concern and the good intentions, I fail to see the point of threads like this one, where people that are not really in touch with competitional overclocking are debating over overclocking ethics. Furthermore, due to various reasons, competitive overclockers are not getting involved in this kind of debates. Then, what is the point?

[Sn0wm@n]

One is a cheat and the other is not. Period. Mipmap has been aroung for years. Overclockers do not use it because they all know it is a cheat.

Though I appreciate the concern and the good intentions, I fail to see the point of threads like this one, where people that are not really in touch with competitional overclocking are debating over overclocking ethics. Furthermore, due to various reasons, competitive overclockers are not getting involved in this kind of debates. Then, what is the point?

what's the point of such a thread??? get our opinion on one of the biggest tech forum so the big shot oc'er could read our opinion and maybe get some serious things going on that embody the vision that the community has .... all of them were at the point that we were sometime ago ... so it isnt farfetched to think that they might listen and come up with something for the greater good of all this hobby

[mike]

One is a cheat and the other is not. Period. Mipmap has been aroung for years. Overclockers do not use it because they all know it is a cheat.

Though I appreciate the concern and the good intentions, I fail to see the point of threads like this one, where people that are not really in touch with competitional overclocking are debating over overclocking ethics. Furthermore, due to various reasons, competitive overclockers are not getting involved in this kind of debates. Then, what is the point?

This was a serious question of mine. Please explain what the difference between mipmaps and LODs is? I think I have a good understanding - but maybe someone can shine 100% light onto this question.

But also to respond to your naming MIPMAP a cheat - I vote for both to be cheats. I have always felt that way. Even when I was doing LODs myself in order to be competitive - I still felt like they were cheats. I never signed on to a concensus on this subject of just one being a cheat.

At one point I decided to enhance the cheat. I realized that different LODs that different results on for example 3DMark05. Then I started changing the LODs between each test of 3DMaRK05. One test even used negative LODs....wow. I am cheater but forced to cheat. Had to cheat becuase the community didn't think it was a cheat. Was I a better cheater then some?

[Sn0wm@n]

yeah id like to know all those things also ....mipmap and what does lod stand for ???

[mike]

yeah id like to know all those things also ....mipmap and what does lod stand for ???

first thing I found on google:
http://www.beyond3d.com/content/articles/69/

didn't read it yet....but to make it simple. LOD makes things look like . MIPMAP makes it even tier by making it mostly

[Monstru]

Either you really do not understand what the difference between the two is (though I doubt this), in which case I really cannot understand why you guys are debating about things you do not know, either you are trying to change the way things have been settled for years, because that is the way you see the world and that is what your culture teaches you. No problem, you can tell yourself and all those around you what you wish, mipmap is not a cheat, lod is the same thing, etc, etc. It is your right to embrace what ever opinion you wish in your community. However, you shouldn't be amazed when the rest of us will say you are a cheater, you shouldn't be amazed when more and more frustration will appear in this game, you shouldn't be amazed when things like Andre did will happen more often and nobody will understand why. You can try and twist and turn this in any way you wish, mipmap is a cheat and whoever uses it is a cheater.

I wonder what would be your opinion on mipmaps if Andre used it to win a competition, instead of Fugger....Sadly, I think I know the answer allready... Have fun debating about....ethics....

[mike]

@ monstru.

I totally understand where you are coming from. The thing is there are so many stories going around, and it's hard to understand what is true and what isn't. The degradition of spirit of the community has been getting worse and worse. What's wrong with me wanting to spell things out???

I want rules. Fair. Play.

Why is it ok to have "extreme LOD" ( more extreme as normal max of 10 LOD ) in GOOC 2008 on ATI, but not ok in GOOC 2009 on Nvidia????

[Monstru]

There is nothing wrong in spelling things out. If you would have done this one year ago, I would have made you a statue...

[massman]

First of all. Sorry Mike that I don't start quoting and re-quoting your previous message. You know I have the utmost respect for you and I really don't want this to drift off to discussions about other topics or becomes a personal argument. There are quite a couple of things I disagree with, but me being unhappy is not important.

It seems that I forgot that it's almost impossible to discuss ethics. The discussion always lead to the quest for solutions to ethical problems using more rules and better regulations. The ethics issue will still be there, though. Always. Rules are just an easy way to silence the conscience.

To be extremely lame: Mike, when you regged at hwbot, you signed a document that says you agree with all HWBOT rules. In the rules is explicitly stated that mipmap is illegal. So, you have agreed that mipmap is illegal. And yes, it's perfectly fine with the rules that you use it outside hwbot ... there's no rule preventing that.

Maybe the biggest problem of all is that overclockers don't trust other overclockers anymore. The amounts of 'this must be a cheater' claims I receive is rediculous. Before anything else, every individual of the community had to realize that sometimes another person is just better. Or: have respect for the work of another overclocker.

Also a huge problem is that in its current form, the hwbot overclockers or teams league is not really suited for (semi-)professional overclocking. This was never announced as such league, but apparently people make it to be something like that. We can debate all we want about competitive overclocking, but as far as my opinion matters, I am convinced the only serious competitive overclocking competitions must be live events. A controlled environment with direct videorecording of what is happening on the screen of every participant.

A question. The idea of a non-profit sanctioning body is nice on paper, but how do you decide who is going to be part of this body? You've mentioned it's unethical of a person who is co-deciding the rules of a competition to also be part of the competition, wouldn't the same apply for a participant of the competition to be part of this sanctioning body? For me, it would be no problem as I prefer to have overclockers who know what they are talking about over lawyers who have no clue what overclocking is about.

Also, this will lead to more political involvement in everything that goes about overclocking. That doesn't sound so interesting to me.

Maybe I just have the wrong view on what you mean?

[Sn0wm@n]

Either you really do not understand what the difference between the two is (though I doubt this), in which case I really cannot understand why you guys are debating about things you do not know, either you are trying to change the way things have been settled for years, because that is the way you see the world and that is what your culture teaches you. No problem, you can tell yourself and all those around you what you wish, mipmap is not a cheat, lod is the same thing, etc, etc. It is your right to embrace what ever opinion you wish in your community. However, you shouldn't be amazed when the rest of us will say you are a cheater, you shouldn't be amazed when more and more frustration will appear in this game, you shouldn't be amazed when things like Andre did will happen more often and nobody will understand why. You can try and twist and turn this in any way you wish, mipmap is a cheat and whoever uses it is a cheater.

I wonder what would be your opinion on mipmaps if Andre used it to win a competition, instead of Fugger....Sadly, I think I know the answer allready... Have fun debating about....ethics....

enlighten me then mate .... tell me how the world of superstar overclocker works .... is it a bunch of glorified nerds winning cash money pushing buttons on their keyboard ???? it cannot be more complicated than that right???

[hipro5]

Ethics my arss.......!.....

We are going DOWN!....

Thank God there are some new kids out there that WILL be decent and "pure" as for O/C to give the REAL example.......

Ethics my arss.......!......

[boblemagnifique]

Get Off you cloud Guys

It's a Biz Marketing for the Brand now , not for we

Come on , just take the pleasure to overclock (extreme) or/and have a good overclocking (up frequency of your configuration 24/24H)

Like all competitions, challenges ... when there is money/invitation involved, the cheaters will always present

The Professional Sports hasn't been solved, so we ... It's so easy to overclock a child of 10 years could do what we all do for years (with time and knowledge and money, it's easy to get a make WR). Nothing is impossible ...

Your parents give a values , keep & respect you and others

Stay Humble, cool and help you with each other! don't fall in the selfishness of the competition !! stay in the community spirit please

That's all i have to say

[Computurd]

competitive overclockers are not getting involved in this kind of debates.

and why do you think that really is? I think there are lots of people laying low right now, so that their crap isnt pulled out into the light. Not saying all of them, of course, but very many. and mike is dead-on, you have to cheat to stay competitive.