ati cheating in crysis benchmark?

**ElSel10** · 04-05-2010, 06:50 PM

Originally Posted by zanzabar

that line shouldn't be straight its a jagged line of bricks with offsets, like hand made walkway. if u look one has integrity and one is a blurred straight line that looks out of place. in both the mortar line is close to content width but on the NV its missing curves that classic hand made and laid masonry would have. but its subjective, to really compare u need something with clean straight lines like a flight sim

No... come on. It's a low resolution repeating texture, not a high resolution photo of an antique cobbled road from old england.

If you look at the mortar line in the front where it is the clearest, you can clearly see the small curve that does exist is toward the right. In the image rendered on the RV870, you can clearly see that area meandering to the left.

And that is totally disregarding the shot of the ground in Crysis where you can very clearly see when you put the images on top of each other that the texture rendered on GF100 is sharper and more uniform than it is on RV870, where you can see the different zones, one of which is more blurry than the other.

**Cybercat** · 04-05-2010, 07:01 PM

Originally Posted by SKYMTL

One question: why is an optimization being called a "cheat"?

As long as the effect is invisible to the end user and has a positive impact on performance, I personally don't give two hoots if it increases framerates by two percent or two hundred percent. I tried to allude to the same thing when talking about the substitution of FP16 render targets since while it has a positive impact upon performance, a person actually PLAYING a game (instead of staring at comparison screens) will likely NEVER see the difference. Me, I see a slight difference in some isolated cases but that's just because I play some games like DoW 2 ALOT so I can see the minor differences with ATI's implementation in that game.

The same thing goes (IMO) for anything above 8xMSAA. Other than old Myst-style point and move style games, 99% of todays apps involve paying attention to a moving picture; not glorified screenshots. So, why would someone even stop to care about a few jagged lines on a fence 200 feet away? On the other hand, if higher IQ modes can be enabled through the use of higher end hardware, I'm all for that as well.

Naturally, decreasing overall image quality for higher scores in reviews isn't "ethical" but I booted Crysis on both ATI and NVIDIA hardware over the weekend and couldn't see any difference. Yes, the ATI cards do have an odd issue where some edges shimmer a bit but between the 9.12 drivers and the newest 10.3a, I saw no differences in either performance or overall IQ.

Besides, is this not a Catalyst AI feature that can be disabled? Amazing the commotion people are making out of this. It's like they have nothing else exciting going on in their lives.

**Chickenfeed** · 04-05-2010, 07:15 PM

Originally Posted by Cybercat

Besides, is this not a Catalyst AI feature that can be disabled? Amazing the commotion people are making out of this. It's like they have nothing else exciting going on in their lives.

As far as I can tell turning off AI didn't effect the filtering quality... so based on a quick subjective test, I'd say no it isn't something that can be disabled. Even if it was people still would be complaining.

**zanzabar** · 04-05-2010, 07:28 PM

i can see what u are talking about zoomed in but from that pic in the link by quick changing on the same position, but considering that thats a crop (or it seams like a crop) and im using a 21" viewable crt with 1280x1024 and cant see the difference without zooming in on the original pics from the link, and nothing looks wrong by them selves, i dont see a problem.

for the others the tree looks to have AA problems since alpha textures dont get proper AA in cysis so its not a good AF comparison, for the ground its not a good comparison its dirt on the ground with no defiant lines.

this is supposed to be crysis right some1 should get an air drop in map with a distinct linear design, and if its cheating and not a glitch why hasnt any1 from a review site just changed the name or tried a game that nativity supports AF. to me it looks like bickering since the gf100 isnt living up to what it was supposed to be, like the love of 3d mark on the r600 were it destroyed the g80 (also due to xfire working on intel chipsets and sli not at the time) but then it was not so good for most games, so if u liked ati or did not like NV thats what u clung to.

**cowie** · 04-06-2010, 02:53 AM

i thuoght it was more then just crysis that this is done?
looks like ati does af as well as 2d
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/...-gdi,2539.html

not that it is important like crappy looking af IQ

**Dami3n** · 04-06-2010, 03:59 AM

If Ati is cheating in Crysis, is nvidia doing the same in metro 2033?
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/vid..._11.html#sect0

**annihilat0r** · 04-06-2010, 04:03 AM

^^ wtf indeed, it's like the whole scene is gaussian blur'red in the GF100 shot

**gamervivek** · 04-06-2010, 04:19 AM

Originally Posted by Dami3n

If Ati is cheating in Crysis, is nvidia doing the same in metro 2033?
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/vid..._11.html#sect0

damn, beat me to it.

Originally Posted by saaya

ati notably reduced the filtering quality in crysis?
that alone is annoying, the fact that you cant change it back to normal and disable the optimizations is very lame and for the first time in a while im actually glad to be on an nvidia card opposed to feeling bad about it for indirectly supporting physix

They should give more controls in CCC, I agree, shimmering does take the sheen off having sharper textures.

lol, you got me, im paid nvidia pr staff

I knew it !!!

**ajaidev** · 04-06-2010, 04:29 AM

Originally Posted by Dami3n

If Ati is cheating in Crysis, is nvidia doing the same in metro 2033?
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/vid..._11.html#sect0

The cheat used by ATi in Crysis dont change the IQ as much as this....

If this is a cheat by Nvidia its a very visible one and can be noticed fairly easily....

**Carfax** · 04-06-2010, 04:43 AM

Originally Posted by Dami3n

If Ati is cheating in Crysis, is nvidia doing the same in metro 2033?
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/vid..._11.html#sect0

Try reading the rest of the page:

Perhaps this reduction of quality is the trick the GeForce GTX 480 resorts to in order to deliver a higher speed in Metro 2033? The game developer answered to our question promptly. Here is what Oles Shishkovtsov, 4A Games Chief Technical Officer said:

No, the observed difference in quality is not due to the performance of the graphics cards. Indeed, graphics cards from Nvidia and ATI render the scene differently in some antialiasing modes. We are trying to find a way to correct this issue. Again, this has nothing to do with speed.

So it's a bug of some sort.

**Manicdan** · 04-06-2010, 04:51 AM

Originally Posted by Carfax

Try reading the rest of the page:

So it's a bug of some sort.

seems valid, i know with WoW if i use any AA besides box, it makes everything, even text blurry as hell.

**eric66** · 04-06-2010, 04:52 AM

Originally Posted by Carfax

So it's a bug of some sort.

yeah and ati cheats

guys i say enough lets move on this crappy thread needs to die

**gamervivek** · 04-06-2010, 05:04 AM

http://www.pcgameshardware.com/aid,6...eviews/?page=4

The last pic, was that a bug? was that a cheat?

Originally Posted by Coldon

There is a standard, its called the API specs and drivers are supposed to follow them. Now lets say developer A creates custom mipmaps and writes the rendering engine assuming no LOD bias as per the SPECS, and the guys at ATI obviously know better and introduce a driver level LOD bias after the game has shipped, now who's responsibility is it to fix the problem? The developer that followed the API specs or the driver team that knew better.

3D rendering is not the wild west! The whole graphical pipeline is very simple, the developer has control over most key stages in the pipeline except for the finer points of triangle setup/traversal/texture filtering/clipping and to an extent blending. The driver team just needs to ensure that the driver behaves according to the API specs.

From your post, I'm assuming you don't really know what LOD bias does and from where the supposed sharpness comes from.

But the algorithms that ati and nvidia use differ and there is no standard for that.It's wholly possible that one looks better on simple 3D tests, while other looks better in a game or both look better or worse in a game depending on what scenario you are using.Similarly for AA comparisons.
The texture/mipmap pop-in you referred to are a game problem, I had them more in warhead than in crysis, tweaked the settings a bit or used CCC v2 and they decreased.

**insurgent** · 04-06-2010, 05:58 AM

Originally Posted by eric66

yeah and ati cheats

guys i say enough lets move on this crappy thread needs to die

LOL indeed, these guys will probably go back to ATI-drivers-suck mode

**Vinas** · 04-06-2010, 07:07 AM

This doesn't appear to be the case with the 10.5 drivers. Can anyone else confirm?

PS: what's with the old guy near the XS logo... ? someone have a birthday or something???

**ElSel10** · 04-06-2010, 07:07 AM

Originally Posted by Dami3n

If Ati is cheating in Crysis, is nvidia doing the same in metro 2033?
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/vid..._11.html#sect0

Did you miss the part where the developer was quoted saying it's a problem with anti aliasing and they are working on fixing it?

**Manicdan** · 04-06-2010, 07:12 AM

Originally Posted by Vinas

This doesn't appear to be the case with the 10.5 drivers. Can anyone else confirm?

PS: what's with the old guy near the XS logo... ? someone have a birthday or something???

wheres 10.5? is it May 15th already?

**eric66** · 04-06-2010, 07:44 AM

Originally Posted by ElSel10

Did you miss the part where the developer was quoted saying it's a problem with anti aliasing and they are working on fixing it?

if you accept it as innocent bug then you must do same thing for ati imho

**Dami3n** · 04-06-2010, 07:46 AM

Originally Posted by ElSel10

Did you miss the part where the developer was quoted saying it's a problem with anti aliasing and they are working on fixing it?

No, I read the entire review.
I posted only the link to see the reactions of the people who are blaming Ati for cheating instead thinking that is only a bug. Very funny.

**Eastcoasthandle** · 04-06-2010, 07:49 AM

The answer as to why the IQ in Metro 2033 is blurry is invalid. We must wait and see once fixed if there is an reduction in performance. For me, I take what they said with a grain of salt. They made this game specifically for the 400 series, even naming it as part of system requirements before the 400 series was ever reviewed (to this date not available to buy). And looking at the images gives me the impression that 400 isn't using any AF. Then we definitely need to see before and after results. And, this is pure example of reduction in IQ.

Also take note of the results between the 480 vs 5870. Unlike other reviews Xbit actually removed all control panel optimizations by use High Quality instead of just Quality.

**Chumbucket843** · 04-06-2010, 07:49 AM

Originally Posted by gamervivek

http://www.pcgameshardware.com/aid,6...eviews/?page=4

The last pic, was that a bug? was that a cheat?

its a cheat just like the one in this thread. cutting corners and using optimizations is rampant from pretty much any 3d hardware vendor. all you have to do is look a little closer. we should get rid of direct3d altogether so no one can cheat anymore.

**eric66** · 04-06-2010, 07:52 AM

Originally Posted by Eastcoasthandle

The answer as to why the IQ in Metro 2033 is blurry is invalid. We must wait and see once fixed if there is an reduction in performance. For me, I take what they said with a grain of salt. They made this game specifically for the 400 series, even naming it as part of system requirements before the 400 series was ever reviewed (to this date not available to buy). Then we definitely need to see before and after results. And, this is pure example of reduction in IQ.

Also take note of the results between the 480 vs 5870. Unlike other reviews Xbit actually removed all control panel optimizations by use High Quality instead of just Quality.

to tell the truth developer is twimtbp b_tch so i am not gonna believe em unless they actually provide fix that they promised and that iq difference is actually more serious than crysis one

**Eastcoasthandle** · 04-06-2010, 07:54 AM

Originally Posted by eric66

to tell the truth developer is twimtbp b_tch so i am not gonna believe em unless they actually provide fix that they promised and that iq difference is actually more serious than crysis one

Yeah, I looked at the pics and it appears to be an AF issue unless something else is going on. If it turns out that it is indeed an AF issue there should be a reduction in frame rate albeit a small one once fixed. I'll also be looking to see if there is a driver update, game patch, etc.