HD5970 Microstuttering tests

[demonkevy666]

I'm not sure I understand your question. If you're asking if there are more modes than just AFR and supertiling, yes, there are. Supertiling is pretty much the end-game as far as getting rid of visual problems though, so I recommend it.

yes exactly, but you need more then 2 card to get those options to show up.

[Stukov]

I'm still baffled that 95% of people claim "microstutter" when, it is just stutter. "Microstutter" was an effect where variations in frame rendering time would become even more fubar when using different refresh rates than what the monitor would support...or something to that affect.

Sutter != microstutter

I should also add that you should be testing with either Core i7 or Phenom II, as even noticed by Anandtech gameplay actually seemed smoother in many games, even when the FPS didn't show it.

[naokaji]

The human eye can't see more than 60FPS anyway

Regardless if it can or not, think about the max number the majority of TFTs on the market today actually displays (and you can definitly not see more than the monitor displays).

Anyway, there are three problems that lead to the user experiencing stuttering, crappy min fps, input lag and micro stuttering, only one of them is exclusive to multi gpu setups and can be reduced by not using AFR, so why is everyone bashing on multi gpu setups like they would be the spawn of evil?

[STaRGaZeR]

Regardless if it can or not, think about the max number the majority of TFTs on the market today actually displays (and you can definitly not see more than the monitor displays).

I know that, that's why some of us have one of those 120Hz monitors and are enjoying them like if it were no tomorrow. Too bad they're only TN at the moment.

[Sgt.McRuff]

However even as simple as AFR is, it isn’t foolproof and it isn’t flawless. Making it work at its peak level of performance requires some understanding of the game being run, which is why for even such a “dumb” method we still have game profiles. Furthermore it comes with a few inherent drawbacks

1. Each GPU needs to get a frame done in the same amount of time as the other GPUs.
2. Because of the timing requirement, the GPUs can’t differ in processing capabilities. AFR works best when they are perfectly alike.
3. Dealing with games where the next frame is dependent on the previous one is hard.
4. Even with matching GPUs, if your driver gets the timing wrong, it can render frames at an uneven pace. Frames need to be spaced apart equally – when this fails to happen you get microstuttering.
5. AFR has multiple GPUs working on different frames, not the same frame. This means that frame throughput increases, but not the latency for any individual frame. So if a single card gets 30fps and takes 16.6ms to render a frame, a pair of cards in AFR get 60fps but still take 16.6ms to render a frame.
http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3713&p=2

Good explanation of what happens. And like many things, multi-gpu setups are user preference.

I never was happy with my 4870 xfire, it felt sluggish to me.

[annihilat0r]

The people who don't notice microstuttering are playing games in which the minimum momentary FPS doesn't go below 50 or 60 something. When your momentary FPS is 50-100-50-100-50-100 you don't see a 75 FPS level fluidity, you see 50 FPS level fluidity. But when your FPS's are so high that you don't see microstuttering, then your second GPU doesn't add anything, does it? All you have done is to pay huge amounts of extra money just to see that 75 FPS indicator whereas you are getting a mere 50 FPS.

I am not sure that this is a "feeling" issue that varies from person to person. Sure, min acceptable / perceived FPS varies from person to person but that's it. For everyone, the perceived FPS has to be the low momentary FPS. Just think this way - every even frame is rendered at 10ms (100 FPS) and every odd frame at 1000ms (1 FPS). So the frame times go 10-1010-1020-2020 etc. Would you perceive 50 FPS (the average) here, or 1 FPS?

[TJ TRICHEESE]

i have to disagree with the general direction of this argument as i have had much better performance with my gtx285 tri-sli, less MS than with one 9800gx2 or two gtx 280's, im not saying that our current method of multi-gpu rendering is perfect, im just saying that not all setups with multiple cards are useless, some setups actually work as average fps (including MS) is increased with more cards

[Final8ty]

i have to disagree with the general direction of this argument as i have had much better performance with my gtx285 tri-sli, less MS than with one 9800gx2 or two gtx 280's, im not saying that our current method of multi-gpu rendering is perfect, im just saying that not all setups with multiple cards are useless, some setups actually work as average fps (including MS) is increased with more cards

Indeed the same multi gfx cards in another setup will most likely give different MS results.

[Kai Robinson]

I've got two HD4850 cards in crossfire. In 99.9% of games, i don't notice any 'microstuttering' with my Q9650 @ 4Ghz (P5Q Deluxe Board), except Crysis - but then, ATi + Crysis + Crossfire = Fail combination, thanks to Cryteks sloppy coding.

However, when i had an E7200 @ 4Ghz, it was more noticeable in Crysis - personally, i think it's probably more a case of the CPU not having enough grunt to farm out data fast enough.

Fallout 3 @ High details, 1680x1050 with one 4850 is damn near unplayable. Only by adding a 2nd card, do i see more than 30fps (max of about 70fps). Performance dips in texture heavy outdoors scenes in either case, but no stuttering occurs.

Maybe i'm just old and my eyes are slow...?

[AliG]

Honestly why don't we just let those who don't experience ms enjoy their gift? Think about it, that's one of the few times it actually improves your experience to not be able to detect the effects of your hardware and can be seen as a blessing considering how much money they're spending.

I just don't see any point to arguing over something as mundane as that; if anything keep it strictly between people who do experience ms as those who don't can't comment from experience anyways.

[Manicdan]

Honestly why don't we just let those who don't experience ms enjoy their gift? Think about it, that's one of the few times it actually improves your experience to not be able to detect the effects of your hardware and can be seen as a blessing considering how much money they're spending.

I just don't see any point to arguing over something as mundane as that; if anything keep it strictly between people who do experience ms as those who don't can't comment from experience anyways.

simple, those who dont notice it dont have to worry about their 600$ card feeling like crap. the rest of the world probably wants to see what causes it and if there are ways around it (platform, resolution, AA, etc)

[Kallenator]

I also thought this was a thing of the past, however I have noticed exactly this in Fallout 3 and it bugs me.
Other games I can't say I remember, but that's probably because my mind is completely elsewhere.
One thing is sure though, until they fix this I am not buying another dual GPU card.

[Marios]

In my case I think SLI works without MS in case I enable Vertical sync and triple buffering.

[vlaszlo]

I always play with VSYNC enabled, and frame rates locked to 60Hz. If you worked with interlaced movies, bad field order, converting material from NTSC to PAL, then you know what stuttering is. Monitors cant delay pictures 1 or 2 msec, they work with 20 ms or 16,666 msec timebase. The only way to see 1-2 msec stutter is, if the game engine is crap, and cant properly track its internal timer to render the frames properly, or uses RDTSC instructions for timing from 2-3-4 different cores. So, i think the SLI/CF technology is satisfactory so far, only the GAMES are very poorly ported/written.

[JAG87]

Microstutter is solved simply by using vsync. I don't understand why anybody in 2010 is playing games without vsync, putting up with horrible image tearing and uneven frame times.

The number of FPS on your screen means NOTHING, it's the time between frames that matters, period.

It's like me saying I give you 7 chickens to eat in a week, would you rather have a fresh hot chicken everyday, or 3 chickens monday and 4 chickens sunday?

Vsync is the rationing agent, one frame every 16.6 ms, it should be mandatory, it should be enabled by default in the driver and never allowed to be disabled.

What's sad is that we're in 2010, and we still don't have a system built-in the drivers to remove input lag that comes with vsync. The good old 59 fps cap works in most cases though.

[Blacky]

Microstutter is solved simply by using vsync. I don't understand why anybody in 2010 is playing games without vsync, putting up with horrible image tearing and uneven frame times.

The number of FPS on your screen means NOTHING, it's the time between frames that matters, period.

It's like me saying I give you 7 chickens to eat in a week, would you rather have a fresh hot chicken everyday, or 3 chickens monday and 4 chickens sunday?

Vsync is the rationing agent, one frame every 16.6 ms, it should be mandatory, it should be enabled by default in the driver and never allowed to be disabled.

What's sad is that we're in 2010, and we still don't have a system built-in the drivers to remove input lag that comes with vsync. The good old 59 fps cap works in most cases though.

and now more than ever you can vsync + triple buffering = win with 120hz displays!

[STEvil]

oh maan...

multi GPU is around for yeeears, but it doesn't work properly yet


ok, AFR is crap, so what would be the "right way" to do multi GPU?

SLI (Scan Line Interleve - 3DFX style), SFR (Split-Frame Rendering, true split or work-load balanced) and Micro/Macro-Tiling (remember that tweak from R100 days?).


edit - Vysnc sucsk btw, adds latency to image display.

[justin.kerr]

Beer, the MS cure. Seems to work every time.

[Rock&Roll]

SLI (Scan Line Interleve - 3DFX style), SFR (Split-Frame Rendering, true split or work-load balanced) and Micro/Macro-Tiling (remember that tweak from R100 days?).


edit - Vysnc sucsk btw, adds latency to image display.

This so reminds me of the debate I was in when nvidia's SLi was announced...I didn't really like what I saw. I saw a half-assed approach to going back to nostalgic multi-card performance...only with less than nostalgic performance gains.

People told me it was because hardware and bandwidth limitations no longer allowed the old Scan-Line-Interleave way to work....

I'm not saying modern SLi doesn't have it's value. But it sure could be a lot better if it was like the original... If only they could develop an interconnect to make this happen.

[KingOfsorroW]

This so reminds me of the debate I was in when nvidia's SLi was announced...I didn't really like what I saw. I saw a half-assed approach to going back to nostalgic multi-card performance...only with less than nostalgic performance gains.

People told me it was because hardware and bandwidth limitations no longer allowed the old Scan-Line-Interleave way to work....

I'm not saying modern SLi doesn't have it's value. But it sure could be a lot better if it was like the original... If only they could develop an interconnect to make this happen.

+1
Everything that nvidia has "invented" - was actually the 3Dfx heritage(well almost everything). Now it has to do something on its own - and oops - it turns out to be so hard to do. Delays, delays - especially when you are not alone on the market and can't sell the same thing everytime but instead need to make smth actually new...

[saaya]

I disagree saaya, some titles are more prone to this effect then others.

That way you CAN NOT make it a general rule for all titles and just support it by a fraps graph.

true... it seems it depends on the games and the framerate (the lower the worse it gets)

ok, AFR is crap, so what would be the "right way" to do multi GPU?

not really... if you do afr in a smart way it should work flawlessly... you just need to align the 2 or more gpus properly so they steadily fire fps.

Folks, just don't read the OP but click on the link and read all the graphs. There you will find a trend where fluctuates are more pronounced at 1920 then at 1680. Thus it's easy to see that there is some sort of frame rate induced problem more so then anything else.

well yeah, but who will play at 1680 with a 5970?

The worst games for microstuttering in my personal experience have been MMOs and games that have large open worlds that have to access heavy amounts of CPU/Mem/HDD loads.

well are you sure its microstuttering and not the game running out of frame buffer and having to cache data from the system mem or hdd? that causes pretty bad stuttering

its possible that this then triggers microstuttering as well though, as all gpus run out of data and then start rendering again at almost the same time, causing very uneven frame times.

[saaya]

2all I don't know, I'm not blind and definitely saw no microstuttering - everything was smooth like baby's a$$ with that 3 sli setup.
Macro stuttering - constant big fluctuations (the usual stuttering in another words)
microstuttering - small and frequent fluctuations (may happend randomly).
There was a lot of talks about microstuttering on the internet at the time of gtx295 -285 launch - the microstuttering is a myth. Because it is almost impossible to catch it for a human eye. People tend to confuse it with some other troubles like latency or the margin between the min and max fps for example...
But one thing for sure - one fast card is better than 2 or 3 cards alright.

right, so if you cant see it, it doesnt exist... :P

Microstutter is solved simply by using vsync.

err no? vsync causes big problems with some cases... read the anandtech article about it, i think it was called gaming latency explored or something like that...

Beer, the MS cure. Seems to work every time.

heheh, true

[KingOfsorroW]

right, so if you cant see it, it doesnt exist... :P

With vsync on - no, it doesn't.

[Chickenfeed]

Is that MS or another phenomena altogether?

Uneven frametimes so yes. I'm much happier on a single gpu.

As far as the whole Vsync debate, personally I can put up with it in single player games but in 99% of online first person shooters, vsync = epic fail. Enough said. If you don't know what I am speaking of then clearly you don't play online heheh...

[STEvil]

This isnt true for all situations, but i've noticed a lot engines that have micro-stutter issues seem to stream a lot of data due to lack of VRAM or they just need to stream data due to sheer amount to show the entire game world.

Add in some fast paces and you can really see the macro-stutter effect (pauses)...