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Thread: [Sub-Preview] Heatkiller 3.0 LC and LT Compared + Vapor's Testbed 2.0 First Look

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    [Sub-Preview] Heatkiller 3.0 LC and LT Compared + Vapor's Testbed 2.0 First Look

    So this is a post comparing the LC and LT Heatkillers, as well as examining horizontal vs. vertical orientation of both as well as what happens when you remove the divider from the LT (not the impingement plate, that always stays in). None of this will be posted over at Skinneelabs as, well, this is really a sub-preview....the testing I did over the past few days was more of a test run than anything else, but everything went smoothly enough that I feel I can show the results while I wait for the final parts to come in

    As such, this is also my first data-showcase of my new testbed and what it can do for testing waterblocks There are a few minor improvements to make over the next week (which I will detail), and then it'll be finalized. At which point I'll retest everything I've tested here and then continue on with my regular testing/reviewing. I'll also take pictures of Testbed 2.0 at that time and share those

    So let's get to it, shall we?

    First, let's go over what Testbed 1.1 did wrong and what Testbed 2.0 does to correct those shortcomings.

    Testbed 1.1 Shortcomings:
    1) I was stubborn with Testbed 1.1 and really wanted to stick to the H20-220 Compact roots it was born from.
    2) Going the "sandwich" route was ineffective for anything more than structural reasons....yes, having a really wide base was effective for making it very stable even with a decent amount of mass hanging off of it. But after some tests, I realized I only had ~10-15% more radiator power than using just the MCR320 with the same fannage.
    3) I should have measured water temperatures.
    4) Using a Koolance FM17 flowmeter, while it's surprisingly accurate when used with logging, I deemed as 'unprofessional' and also wanted higher confidence in my high-flow readings.
    5) When I varied flow through the waterblock, it varied through the radiator as well. (i.e., there wasn't enough variable isolation for the waterblock)
    6) Flowrates weren't high enough at the high-end of the spectrum.
    7) Flowrates weren't low enough at the low-end of the spectrum.
    8) A test of a single waterblock configuration on a single CPU took 5 days.
    9) Due to the slight break-in of MX-2, flow vs. temp curves ended up being shallower than they should have been (fortunately I always did the tests in the exact same order! [max flowrates to min]).
    10) Not every pump setting was a "hard setting." (i.e., in order to achieve 10v supply for one of the pumps, I needed to use a DMM and dial-in the pump controller; in my opinion, hard settings are always better--on/off and turning a dial all the way up or down are good examples).

    Testbed 2.0's Improvements:
    1) I actually remained stubborn to the concept of having a 2-piece cooler: one piece at the cpu area, the other being a remote portion containing "everything else." It remains portable, though has increased in weight immensely.
    2) I now use two MCR320s mounted together at the hip....they're not sandwich style any longer (unless you count open-face sandwiches I suppose).
    3) I measure a lot of water temperatures, I have 4 probes measuring water into the CPU block, 2 probes measuring water out of the CPU block, 2 probes measuring water into the radiator, and 4 probes measuring water coming out of the radiator. I also continue to use 2 probes per intake fan, so 12 for air intake measurement. Overall I have 24 Dallas One-Wire probes in use for the waterblock testbed (note, for the tests below, only 22 were used--I only used 2 coming out of the radiators).
    4) I'm still using the Koolance FM17 on the radiator subloop, just to verify that flowrates do not change noticeably (they don't). But I've gone to Dwyer RMC series flowmeters for the CPU subloop. Since I need measurement range from .25gpm to over 4gpm, no single rotameter I could find fit the bill, so I got two Dwyer RMC series flowmeters and put them in series...in all, I can (very) accurately measure flowrates between .2GPM and 7GPM
    5) I now have a setup with a shared reservoir with two 'subloops' stemming from it. This allows me to vary flowrates through the CPU block immensely (from .25GPM to 4+GPM) and have a constant flowrate through the radiators the entire time. Theoretically I didn't need to do this when I'm measuring water temperatures, but it allows me to use CPU vs. air temperatures again since radiator flow (and performance) is non-variable and disambiguated from the CPU block performance.
    6) I've made numerous improvements to the loop: I've added a D5, I've gone from a XSPC Res Top + EK Dual Turbo Top to an XSPC V3 Top and two EK V2 Tops (has better performance at high flowrates, although it's not as good as the XSPC V3 at low-to-moderate flowrates [at below 2GPM, the XSPC is the better top]). I've also reduced restriction for the CPU subloop....gone are the radiators (duh) and the 3/8" tubing and in is a combination of 1/2" and 7/16" tubing.
    7) Despite lowering restriction greatly, I'm also capable of measuring significantly lower flowrates due to the addition of the D5 and its incredibly weak Setting 1.
    8) A test of a CPU block in a single configuration on a single CPU now takes only slightly more than a day. I can get 3 blocks/configurations done in 4 days now. And my data is more consistent and accurate due to the use of water temperature probes.
    9) I get around the MX-2 break-in in two ways. First, I no longer test the entire flowrate gamut each mount (meaning intra-mount comparisons are no longer needed); and second, I do let MX-2 fully cure for 12 hours before running the flowrate gamut tests.
    10) Every pump setting is a hard setting now...D5@1, I just turn the D5's dial down all the way. DDC3.2 at 7.6V, I just turn the pump controller's dial down all the way. D5@5, I just turn the D5's dial up all the way. DDC3.2 @ 12V, I bypass the controller and just plug in the XSPC DDC3.2 (note, this test was not included in this comparison, but it will be there when I do the real testing). 2xDDC3.2 @ 12V, I just plug in both EK DDC3.2s. All pumps on = all pumps on
    11) There are a lot of little improvements here and there as well...I use BP Fatboy barbs, I use rotary extenders at the CPU block so that I don't get twisted tubing (and so that even the REALLY tightly spaced CPU blocks can be mounted with no modification to my setup), the entire front fascia of the cooler is unobstructed, the CrystalFonts and pumps and fans are on their own Zippy PSU (meaning I no longer get droop when all the pumps are going at full bore and it allows me to not have to reconfigure the CF software each time I unhibernate).

    Testbed 2.0 Specs:
    2xMCR320s + 12x YL D12SH-12s (push+pull)
    3xDDC3.2 (2x with EK V2 top, 1x with XSPC V3 top...all in the block subloop)
    1xD5 (stock top....in the block subloop)
    1xD-Tek DB-1 (pump for the radiator subloop)
    1xBitspower 5-port Res with a Swiftech MicroRes attached to the top to help with bleeding (still sucks with bleeding)--getting switched out to an 8-port PrimoChill Typhoon in the next few days
    24xDallas One-Wire DS18B20 temp probes (12 in the air, 12 in the water)
    1xDwyer RMC-142 (.2GPM to 2.2GPM)
    1xDwyer RMC-144 (.8GPM to 7GPM)
    1xWhatever waterblock I'm testing

    Changes being made to Testbed 2.0 between the tests below and next week:
    1) Switching to an 8-port Typhoon reservoir, should help me with bleeding (which is very slow right now due to a design flaw in the BP res I currently use), as well as a few minor improvements.
    2) Going from serial to parallel flow through the radiators via the use of a BP Y-split coming out of the pump and using the extra ports on the Typhoon res. I really have no rationale for doing it other than I want to try it
    3) Adding in some Tygon Silver tubing.
    4) Adding two more temp probes at the water-out portion of the radiator (increases precision and maintains balance in restriction between the two subsubloops of the radiator subloop).
    5) Removing a Killcoil that got jammed against some temp probes (damn you high flowrates!)
    6) Switching to the Zippy PSU for the WC components (already done and tested--works great and boosts flow noticeably at the high-end due to a lack of droop--but was not used for the tests below).


    Alright, some tests!


    This isn't a formal preview or review, just a testlog as much as anything, but my procedure is my normal one (which I don't think any of you read anyway, lol)....it can be found in any of my other waterblock test threads. Any differences in procedure are due to new equipment, which is detailed above....fill in the blanks

    CPU vs. Water Temps:


    CPU vs. Air Temps:


    CPU vs. Air Temps (with 1/3rd the radiator power of my setup):

    (this data was calculated by taking water to air deltas and adding it three times to the water temps...it shows what someone with a single 3x120 radiator with ~1600RPM fans can expect in terms of block performance vs. flow)


    Each of the 5 datapoints for each curve was at the same pumping power setting....from left to right:
    Very Low: D5@1
    Low: DDC3.2 + XSPC V3 top @ 7.65V
    Medium: D5@5
    Medium-High: DDC3.2 + XSPC V3 top @ 12V (***not used in these tests***)
    High: 2xDDC3.2 + EK V2 tops
    Very High: All 4 pumps on at max--D5@5 + all three DDC3.2s at 12V


    Recap
    This really is a quick and dirty preview of what's to come from my upcoming testing....I expect with a super-low restriction block like the Sapphire Rev. A, I should hit nearly 4GPM (I'm at 3.8-3.85ish with the Heatkiller LC with the Zippy PSU).

    I think overall this testbed is a significant step forward for my testing and should be able to really hammer out some useful results quickly and accurately.

    In addition to the Heatkiller LC and LT, I have a Swiftech GTZ, Koolance CPU-350, EK Supreme, EK Surprme LT, and a D-Tek Fuzion V2 (though I'm thinking of retiring the FV2, it's seen better days). I'm always on the look out to test more blocks, so if you know of an opportunity, drop me a note

    Of course this sub-preview has none of the fit and finish of my regular reviews, but it's still fun/usable data, IMO. Seems to me the Heatkillers enjoy vertical and for an LT+i7 system, pulling out the little plastic divider at the inlet is a good idea Their flow dependence is really similar, with the LC not doing as well with low flow (likely due to the lack of impingement plate sealing off secondary flowpaths, IMO)....and overall they seem to have very minimal flow dependence, not having much performance scaling past a single D5.

    Anyway, thanks for reading

    (sorry for the wall of text....that's what happens when I leave a post open for a couple days and just keep adding to it )

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    Nice job! I really enjoy long writeups because it gives me more understanding of what goes on behind the scenes. More than just numbers of performance. Btw, can you please explain these "subloops" in pictures please? I kinda don't get the idea =/

    Quote Originally Posted by Vapor View Post
    1xD5 (stock top....in the block subloop)
    Isn't that going to kill the d5 if it is after the 3 ddcs?
    Last edited by Boogerlad; 09-03-2009 at 09:24 PM.

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    Overclocking flow 4gpm is like 4ghz lol, yeah I agree throw away than fv2 dtek should release a new CPU block


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    throw away! Give it to me XD

    Dare I say this, but I have to say, your testing is just as good or better as martin's imo. So much info! Great read. Martin was the origin of this testing craze.
    Last edited by Boogerlad; 09-03-2009 at 09:41 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boogerlad View Post
    Nice job! I really enjoy long writeups because it gives me more understanding of what goes on behind the scenes. More than just numbers of performance. Btw, can you please explain these "subloops" in pictures please? I kinda don't get the idea =/



    Isn't that going to kill the d5 if it is after the 3 ddcs?
    Yeah, this write-up is almost a strictly behind-the-scenes type of deal....data was never intended to be shown (it was just a test run to work out the kinks), but everything just worked so I figure might as well, right?

    As for subloops, I don't have a picture yet (and even when I do post pics of the testbed, it won't clear much up...it's a function over form build all the way)....but I'll draw up a sketch in paint

    [edit]quick sketch in paint

    The water from the 2 subloops mixes in the reservoir...water entering the block subloop works out to be roughly the average of radiator-in and radiator-out temps from all the data I have so far (all the data in this thread and the entire TIM testing I did was on this setup [well, just the rads were in series then, but they won't be any longer]).
    [/edit]

    As for the D5 dying...I hope not It's still within spec, both structural specs and flowrate specs, so hopefully all remains well. It is a very robust pump, I'm more worried about the DDC3.2s surviving, tbh

    Quote Originally Posted by Hondacity View Post
    Overclocking flow 4gpm is like 4ghz lol, yeah I agree throw away than fv2 dtek should release a new CPU block
    The FV2 isn't going anywhere...just it's basically non-competitive and takes a long time to test with all the different nozzles. I still use it to make sure all is well in the loop (in terms of holding up under pressure)....nothing is as restrictive as an FV2+3.5mm nozzle

    And I might test it with more mounting pressure, it seems sorely lacking in mounting pressure with the LGA1366 mounting kit.

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    very nice and corresponding to HESmelaughs reviews: http://www.dexgo.com/index.php?site=...dware&seite=11 (this is part 6/6)

    I would really like to know what happens if you dismount not only the deviding plate (the little plastic from the inlet - by the way like Watercool advises for i7), but also the nozzleplate
    http://www.dexgo.com/hardware/Bilder/big/356_22 (stolen from Shane - forgive me )

    What is left would have the fine fins of the LT- and CU-Version (enabling very high flow rates) and -probably- with performance better than LC, but not far away from CU

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    Improvements look good.

    I was wondering you could run some quick test with the HK 3.0 LT on a dual-core chip to see if there is any difference. There are still a few of us out there using dual-cores and there isn't any good test with the HK 3.0 to show if it is worth upgrading from a GTZ or D-tek V2. At least with some data on it, we can dig threw old dual core comparisions and get a better idea.
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    I hope you'll be including results for the ever popular all copper Heatkiller 3.0 for comparison purposes to give us something to relate to when looking at the results for these other blocks.
    If you don't like what I have to say, please feel free to ignore it. I do!

    Core i7 920 (D0) @ 4.0Ghz, P6T Deluxe V2 (0901), 12GB Corsair CM3X2G1600C7 @ 1600 7.7.7.20 2T, ATCS 840, Antec TPQ 850, Radeon 4850, TMS-200 + TMS-EB200, EK Supreme HF, EK-D5 dual top, 2x MCP-655-B, MCR-420, 7X Skythe D1225C12B5AP-15, Durelene tubing. Obviously not a gamer as you can tell by the low end video card.

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    Ok so according to this test mounting a LT the regular way (both threads vertical) is the way to get the best performance.

    Nice to see this as thats how I plan to mount it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by astrodanco View Post
    I hope you'll be including results for the ever popular all copper Heatkiller 3.0 for comparison purposes to give us something to relate to when looking at the results for these other blocks.
    The all copper is the same block as the LT. Just more shiny. The LC is the one that has different internals. It flows better due to a less dense pin structure. It also isn't as thermally efficient. People claim to see a slightly better temp, especially with a fan pointed at the copper top. It is normally less than a degree though.

    The copper top is primarily for the extra bling. Even more blingy when nickel plated.

    Quote Originally Posted by slim142 View Post
    Ok so according to this test mounting a LT the regular way (both threads vertical) is the way to get the best performance.

    Nice to see this as thats how I plan to mount it.
    I think it was designed to mount that way. People had to mount the sideways on Gigabyte X58 boards due to cap clearance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by millertime359 View Post
    Improvements look good.

    I was wondering you could run some quick test with the HK 3.0 LT on a dual-core chip to see if there is any difference. There are still a few of us out there using dual-cores and there isn't any good test with the HK 3.0 to show if it is worth upgrading from a GTZ or D-tek V2. At least with some data on it, we can dig threw old dual core comparisions and get a better idea.
    +1. a comparison for C2D and C2Q from 775 sockets for these blocks would be amazing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scamps View Post
    very nice and corresponding to HESmelaughs reviews: http://www.dexgo.com/index.php?site=...dware&seite=11 (this is part 6/6)

    I would really like to know what happens if you dismount not only the deviding plate (the little plastic from the inlet - by the way like Watercool advises for i7), but also the nozzleplate
    http://www.dexgo.com/hardware/Bilder/big/356_22 (stolen from Shane - forgive me )

    What is left would have the fine fins of the LT- and CU-Version (enabling very high flow rates) and -probably- with performance better than LC, but not far away from CU
    From what I can tell by looking at it...the impingement plate should never be removed. It ensures that all the flow goes through the microchannels, rather than above the microchannels (which would be bad for thermal performance). I suppose I can test it though. I was planning a surprise for the real tests...."Frankenblock," basically the LC's top with the LT's bottom, which basically would do what you're talking about (since the LC's top is different than the LT/Cu's top, structurally). The LT/Cu are already so low in restriction that I wouldn't go out of my way to lower their restriction.
    Quote Originally Posted by millertime359 View Post
    Improvements look good.

    I was wondering you could run some quick test with the HK 3.0 LT on a dual-core chip to see if there is any difference. There are still a few of us out there using dual-cores and there isn't any good test with the HK 3.0 to show if it is worth upgrading from a GTZ or D-tek V2. At least with some data on it, we can dig threw old dual core comparisions and get a better idea.
    I plan on running all the blocks on C2Q and C2D.

    In due time though, i7 gets priority.
    Quote Originally Posted by astrodanco View Post
    I hope you'll be including results for the ever popular all copper Heatkiller 3.0 for comparison purposes to give us something to relate to when looking at the results for these other blocks.
    Honestly, I don't plan on shelling out 85+ more dollars to test a block that should perform totally identically to the LT I've already bought. The base is identical to the Cu's and if there's a performance difference there that is repeatable, I'd be totally shocked.
    Quote Originally Posted by millertime359 View Post
    The all copper is the same block as the LT. Just more shiny. The LC is the one that has different internals. It flows better due to a less dense pin structure. It also isn't as thermally efficient. People claim to see a slightly better temp, especially with a fan pointed at the copper top. It is normally less than a degree though.

    The copper top is primarily for the extra bling. Even more blingy when nickel plated.



    I think it was designed to mount that way. People had to mount the sideways on Gigabyte X58 boards due to cap clearance.
    In that vein, people pointing a fan at the Copper's top have to make sure that the air they're blowing is cooler than the water in the loop (and to have it make a noticeable effect with so much mass and so little surface area, a large temp difference), which isn't a given in a case where there are many other components dumping heat into the air and when our water temps are getting pretty low, especially for those with a high-end loop.

    Also, this testing was done on a Gigabyte EX58-UD5....you need to force the caps off to the side a little bit, but it works fine

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vapor View Post
    I plan on running all the blocks on C2Q and C2D.

    In due time though, i7 gets priority.
    Honestly, I don't plan on shelling out 85+ more dollars to test a block that should perform totally identically to the LT I've already bought. The base is identical to the Cu's and if there's a performance difference there that is repeatable, I'd be totally shocked.In that vein, people pointing a fan at the Copper's top have to make sure that the air they're blowing is cooler than the water in the loop (and to have it make a noticeable effect with so much mass and so little surface area, a large temp difference), which isn't a given in a case where there are many other components dumping heat into the air and when our water temps are getting pretty low, especially for those with a high-end loop.

    Also, this testing was done on a Gigabyte EX58-UD5....you need to force the caps off to the side a little bit, but it works fine
    Thanks Vapor. It would be nice to see some data on these new blocks and the old 775 chips.

    I was going to make a mention that you found out how to mount it on a gigabyte board, but didn't want to steal your thunder.
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    Yeah, I made a thread about it maybe a week ago...didn't get many views IIRC Definitely worth it to try to coerce the block into fitting though

    Regarding the Fuzion V2, in my downtime waiting for parts to arrive, I'll give it a whirl and see if increasing the bow or mounting pressure results in any gains I also have a homemade nozzle I want to try

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    forum has been pretty slow lately anyways. might be one of the reasons why not so many views. Looking forward to more reviews. Interested if my decision to drop the GTZ for the HK3.0 was worthwhile. I went to a T3 and upgraded from a MCR220 to a MCR320, so kind of hard to compare temps from before to now.
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    It fell off the first page really quickly, that's all

    GTZ -> HK3.0 is a solid upgrade, IMO

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    Quote Originally Posted by millertime359 View Post
    forum has been pretty slow lately anyways. might be one of the reasons why not so many views.
    Its the time of year... always happens.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skinnee View Post
    Its the time of year... always happens.
    I figured as much. End of summer vacations and what not. Nice weather so being outside.
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    Quote Originally Posted by millertime359 View Post
    forum has been pretty slow lately anyways. might be one of the reasons why not so many views.
    Fine....Next time I'll just tell her...NO MEANS NO and come on here instead to keep you guys company!

    Good job Vapor! Very informative.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sadasius View Post
    Fine....Next time I'll just tell her...NO MEANS NO and come on here instead to keep you guys company!

    Good job Vapor! Very informative.


    Install some monitors behind the one way mirror. You should be able to find room next to all the camera gear.

    Sorry for OT Vapor.
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    I don't mind at all, this thread isn't serious....it's just a quick glance into what's going on in my testing world

    Just put the Fuzion V2 on for a mount, quickly tested min and max flowrates and it looks like .42GPM to 3.55GPM is the testable range for the FV2. Not a bad improvement from .79-2.65GPM

    These FV2 tests will just be about finding a some extra hidden performance via bow/mounting pressure increases

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    Thanks for the review, nice read! Going to have to try the vertical mount on my GB....just hope my tubing still reaches.

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    Nice review. You make me feel that my upgrade from a GTZ to a LC was worth it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vapor View Post
    ...."Frankenblock," basically the LC's top with the LT's bottom, which basically would do what you're talking about (since the LC's top is different than the LT/Cu's top, structurally). The LT/Cu are already so low in restriction that I wouldn't go out of my way to lower their restriction.I plan on running all the blocks on C2Q and C2D.
    ...
    Your "Frankenblock" is exactly what I meant. But I was not aware that the structure of LC and LT block is so different.

    LC, stolen from Bundymania


    LT, stolen from Mr. Spock
    http://www.alice-dsl.net/mr.yogibaer...g/hk3.0_32.jpg

    The o-ring is added, but ...
    Last edited by scamps; 09-05-2009 at 01:34 AM.

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    hi guys
    interesting topic and test
    i don't understand some moments.
    do you removed from 3.0 LT BOTH the divider and nozzle plate or only the divider?
    what is the goal? make the 3.0 LT like LC but with copper base of LT/CU or even remove the divider also?
    here is what i mean:

    (it's foto of my LT) the painted lines - where we need to make a round hole - like G 1/4 is.

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