PhenomMsrTweaker: Cool and Quiet customized

[mtl777]

@mtl777: I'm quite sure that you're gonna run into these latency issues when using any kind of Cool'n Quiet. E.g. if all cores enter a power-saving state, the single core voltage is reduced in small steps before reducing the core clock frequencies. So I think it's very likely that the cores are blocked for a very short time period during this transition, hence increasing the latency. PhenomMsrTweaker's custom C&Q keeps all cores synchronized and allows you to adjust the responsiveness to load changes. I've just run this latency checker for some minutes while surfing and starting 2 very short Prime95 runs (one with 2 threads, then one with 4). My absolute maximum latency has been 162 microseconds, so it should actually be fine (surprisingly). I'm using a slightly overclocked X4 9950 and PhenomMsrTweaker's custom C&Q with default settings on Win7 RC x64. But please perform your own tests, it's not gonna destroy your CPU. Oh and btw, you can always disable C&Q temporarily by switching the active power scheme to 'High performance'.

Awesome! I should really start reading up and installing PhenomMsrTweaker now. Thank you so much!

[kink]

You're welcome. Oh and I forgot to mention that custom C&Q uses only P0 and P1, not P0-P3 like standard C&Q on K10.5 CPUs (like yours).

[Particle]

Thanks for looking into it for me, kink. I think it may be time to bust out my #2 and try my luck at shading.

[wiak]

any K8 & Turion Ultra version? would be nice

[kink]

Nope, I've finished working on this project, I don't find it that interesting anymore. K8 support shouldn't be that hard to implement though as technical docs are available too.

[wiak]

well, k8 version would be exellent for Turion laptops
and Athlon 64 desktops

[mtl777]

Hi Kink, this is really an awesome tool you've created! Exactly what I need. Thank you so much!!

I just have a few questions.

1. Do I need to install the AMD Cool n' Quiet driver for this to work? I don't remember installing this driver when I installed Windows XP on my machine. But I installed the AMD Processor Driver v1.3.2.0053 from AMD's site and PhenomMsrTweaker seems to be working fine. Is AMD Processor Driver the same thing as the AMD Cool n' Quiet driver, just a different name?

2. What happens if you do not enable Custom Cool n' Quiet? Will the Standard Cool n' Quiet take over?

3. How do you define "CPU Load"? Is it the same as the "CPU Usage" percentage that you see in Windows Task manager? So if you set an Overall CPU Load Threshold of 23%, does it mean that the performance state will kick in when the CPU usage showing in Task Manager goes higher than 23%?

4. I'm now looking at the modified 3-performance states version of PhenomMsrTweaker, and it has these three threshold settings that I'm not sure I understand:

Overall CPU Load Threshold (%) High/Low: (the default is 32%)
Overall CPU Load Threshold (%) High/Middle/Low: (the default is 32%)
Overall CPU Load Threshold (%) Middle/Low: (the default is 32%)

Can you please explain how these settings work? Like, if I want the high performance to kick in when the CPU usage is more than 70%, the middle performance to kick in when the CPU usage is 30% to 70%, and the low performance to kick in when the CPU usage is below 30%, what values should I enter in these settings?

Again, thanks very much! Your work and help are greatly appreciated.

[kink]

Hi there.

1. Nope, no driver required. Your driver is the C&Q driver.
2. Yep, at least as long as you re-enable C&Q in the BIOS menu and select a powersaving profile in control panel -> energy options (or the like). You need the AMD driver for that to work.
3. Almost - it's the complete CPU usage, including kernel time (time spent in OS kernel mode).
4. I haven't taken a look at the mod yet, and probably never will, therefore I can't help you. The labels seem to be rather crappy though, I wouldn't understand it myself.

[mtl777]

Hi there.

1. Nope, no driver required. Your driver is the C&Q driver.
2. Yep, at least as long as you re-enable C&Q in the BIOS menu and select a powersaving profile in control panel -> energy options (or the like). You need the AMD driver for that to work.
3. Almost - it's the complete CPU usage, including kernel time (time spent in OS kernel mode).
4. I haven't taken a look at the mod yet, and probably never will, therefore I can't help you. The labels seem to be rather crappy though, I wouldn't understand it myself.

Thanks, man!

So, since the CNQ driver isn't needed, I can even uninstall it and everything will be fine? Is there nothing at all in Windows that needs it if you're not using standard CNQ?

BTW, I'm not exactly sure what the "Make custom P-state settings permanent" option is supposed to do. It seems to set the system to a fixed P-state which never changes even if the load drastically changes, in effect disabling P-state transitions even if custom CNQ is enabled. Is that what it's supposed to do?

[kink]

Yes I guess the driver is only required for standard C&Q, having read the description on the webpage.

If you choose to make custom P-state settings permanent, the customized settings (multipliers and both voltages per P-state) are applied automatically during boot-up and when resuming the system from stand-by mode. This is only useful if you customized the settings beforehand, obviously. It shouldn't interfere with custom C&Q, but again, I haven't tried the mod.

[mtl777]

Yes I guess the driver is only required for standard C&Q, having read the description on the webpage.

If you choose to make custom P-state settings permanent, the customized settings (multipliers and both voltages per P-state) are applied automatically during boot-up and when resuming the system from stand-by mode. This is only useful if you customized the settings beforehand, obviously. It shouldn't interfere with custom C&Q, but again, I haven't tried the mod.

Thanks!

Is it normal for my core voltage to fluctuate in CPU-Z? My CPU voltage is set to 1.3V in the BIOS but it varies from 1.304V to 1.336V in CPU-Z. This happens whether or not I have PhenomMsrTweaker installed. With PhenomMsrTweaker installed, this is during P-state 0 in which I have the CPU VID set to 1.3V.

[kink]

Absolutely normal. Under load, the voltage is usually slightly reduced, the amount depends upon the number and quality of the voltage regulators on the mainboard..

[mtl777]

Absolutely normal. Under load, the voltage is usually slightly reduced, the amount depends upon the number and quality of the voltage regulators on the mainboard..

Thanks! I was starting to worry that my power supply is bad.

[Rezag1000]

quick question: How would one know what an appropriate P1 (power saving) state would be?

[mtl777]

quick question: How would one know what an appropriate P1 (power saving) state would be?

I also want to know the answer to this question. So, Kink, do you just set a CPU multi that you would like to be at in the P1 state, and determine by trial and error what lowest CPU voltage you could go before the system crashes, then bump it up a little (kinda like the reverse of overclocking)?

Let's take a specific example. In my case I have a Phenom II X3 720 BE which I overclocked in the BIOS with the following settings:

HTT Reference Frequency = 250 MHz
CPU Speed = 3625 MHz using 14.5 multi
CPU Voltage = 1.4375V
NB Frequency = 2500 MHz
NB Voltage = 1.2625V
HT Frequency = 2000 MHz

My P0 state settings in PhenomMsrTweaker are:

Core Multi's = 14.5
CPU VID = 1.4375
NB VID = 1.2625

If I want my core multi to be 7 (for 250 MHz x 7 = 1750 MHz CPU speed) in the P1 state, what voltages would you suggest for CPU VID and NB VID in this state?

[Glaucous]

I would really like to get this program to work on my machine. The one thing that is keeping me from overclocking my CPU (again), is that Cool n' Quiet works so great when idle. And on my motherboard I can't change multiple and keep Cool n' Quiet.

Anyhow, I installed the x64 version of the program. And as soon as I execute the exe file, it just says " PhenomMsrTweaker stopped working". I have no idea why, I've looked through this whole thread, installed Visual C++ Redist 2005 and 2008, x86 and x64. I also tried the x86 version of PhenomMsrTweaker, still nothing. I do also have .NET Framework 3.5 SP1.

My computer:
Phenom 2 x4 940
Windows Vista x64 Service Pack 2

The error message:

Description:
Stopped working

Problem signature:
Problem Event Name: CLR20r3
Problem Signature 01: phenommsrtweaker.exe
Problem Signature 02: 1.2.2.0
Problem Signature 03: 49c1aac3
Problem Signature 04: PhenomMsrTweaker
Problem Signature 05: 1.2.2.0
Problem Signature 06: 49c1aac3
Problem Signature 07: 127
Problem Signature 08: 16d
Problem Signature 09: System.Exception
OS Version: 6.0.6002.2.2.0.256.1
Locale ID: 1053

[wilflare]

anyone find this programe not working as well as the default CnQ?
while I adore the availability of options, it seems to switch between the two states alot more as compared to the default CnQ
anyone got a different setting on the CPU Load Interval and all?

[mtl777]

anyone find this programe not working as well as the default CnQ?
while I adore the availability of options, it seems to switch between the two states alot more as compared to the default CnQ
anyone got a different setting on the CPU Load Interval and all?

I have my CPU load threshold at 70%. This means that the performance state kicks in only when the load goes higher than 70%. So most of the time I am at power saving state and only shift to performance state when really necessary.

[kink]

@Rezag1000 & mtl777: There's no right answer to your question about an "appropriate" powersaving state as it completely depends upon your needs and liking. The Phenom I halves its speed in P1, my X4 9950 defaults to 1.3 GHz @ 1.05V; the Phenom II uses 4 states, the lowest P3 state is set to 800 MHz at some voltage < 1V - correct me if I'm wrong, I think I've read it somewhere. I personally set myself a voltage limit (1V currently) and try to use the highest stable frequency (currently 6x262 MHz = 1.57 GHz). 4x262 MHz = 1.05 GHz seems to be stable at 0.85V, but I prefer wasting some minor Watts and having that extra 50% speed in P1 (=> lower percentual CPU usage, P0 doesn't kick in for very short loads).

Make sure to use tested stable settings for P1 too, don't assume P0 kicks in immediately when there's load. I use PhenomMsrTweaker's custom C&Q, set the power scheme to 'Powersaving' so that only P1 is used and then run a Prime95 session (large FFTs) for at least 2 hours. I suggest to set the NB VID to the same value as for P0 because the NB runs at the same speed all the time (that's mentioned on the webpage).

/edit: Just to demonstrate the usefulness of separate multis in P0: I'm currently running 11.5|12|11|11.5x262 MHz = 3|3.15|2.88|3 GHz @ 1.425V after having figured out that the second core performs best of all and is able to compensate for the "bad" third core. The result of many painful Prime95 sessions and crashes...

[mtl777]

@Rezag1000 & mtl777: There's no right answer to your question about an "appropriate" powersaving state as it completely depends upon your needs and liking. The Phenom I halves its speed in P1, my X4 9950 defaults to 1.3 GHz @ 1.05V; the Phenom II uses 4 states, the lowest P3 state is set to 800 MHz at some voltage < 1V - correct me if I'm wrong, I think I've read it somewhere. I personally set myself a voltage limit (1V currently) and try to use the highest stable frequency (currently 6x262 MHz = 1.57 GHz). 4x262 MHz = 1.05 GHz seems to be stable at 0.85V, but I prefer wasting some minor Watts and having that extra 50% speed in P1 (=> lower percentual CPU usage, P0 doesn't kick in for very short loads).

Hi Kink, good to hear from you again! Is there a limit set by AMD as to how low your core voltage can go in P1? Like, can you ever go below 0.7V?

Make sure to use tested stable settings for P1 too, don't assume P0 kicks in immediately when there's load. I use PhenomMsrTweaker's custom C&Q, set the power scheme to 'Powersaving' so that only P1 is used and then run a Prime95 session (large FFTs) for at least 2 hours. I suggest to set the NB VID to the same value as for P0 because the NB runs at the same speed all the time (that's mentioned on the webpage).

In my case I need my NB VID to be 1.2625V at P0 in order to make my 3625 MHz (250 x 14.5) CPU overclock stable. Do I still need 1.2625V NB VID at P1 considering that I'm underclocking my CPU to 1250 MHz (250 x 5) at this state? I thought that raising the NB VID was necessary to support (1) the CPU overclock and (2) the higher NB frequency due to the overclock. But in P1 state, (1) is eliminated (since I'm underclocking), and only (2) remains (since my NB frequency is still the same), so wouldn't that require slightly less NB VID then?

[kink]

Hey,

hmm I don't recall reading something about a minimum Vcore - I think the CPU gets unstable pretty quickly at voltages below 0.8V. Additionally, there's not much point in undervolting below 0.8V as you're only going to save 1-2 Watts, I guess.

I don't think the NB VID needs to be raised to support core overclocking, at least I haven't experienced that myself. But you are obviously free to experiment, just make sure to check for stable operation (use a somewhat memory-intensive test like large FFTs).

[mtl777]

Hey,

hmm I don't recall reading something about a minimum Vcore - I think the CPU gets unstable pretty quickly at voltages below 0.8V. Additionally, there's not much point in undervolting below 0.8V as you're only going to save 1-2 Watts, I guess.

I was just wondering if AMD set a lower limit as a safety precaution. I guess it's not possible to damage the CPU by going too low with the voltage but I wanted to be sure.

I don't think the NB VID needs to be raised to support core overclocking, at least I haven't experienced that myself. But you are obviously free to experiment, just make sure to check for stable operation (use a somewhat memory-intensive test like large FFTs).

I have tried 1.2V NB VID but no stress tests yet, just normal PC usage. I find that the machine very occasionally freezes, like once a week. I'll try large FFT tests next. Thanks!

[Goldlocke]

Thank you kink. Great tool!
Use it on Win7 64.

[xsever]

Hello Kink,

I would like to thank you for this great app. It is really a marvel.

I was simply wondering if you could integrate a 3rd state that goes between P0 and P1. The reason I ask is because scrolling some websites is laggy since it sticks to P1, and I have tried many settings tweaks that resulted in continuous switching.

I am running Windows 7 64-bit RTM and AMD Phenom II X3 720 BE.

I would really appreciate if you could let me know if it's possible, and if you have any other tips/recommendations.

Thanks,

[m0n4g3]

Why not adjust your p1 state to accomodate your browsing!

I'm running a 940BE and running it at 1.4ghz @ 1.05v. This runs p95 and OCCT linpack stable and havent' had ANY issues with it.

On a very basic w/c system i get 28C idle and 40C load on my p1 state, compared to 32C idle and 48C load on my p0 state (3.5ghz@1.35v).

This is running my cpu-nb vid @ 1.325v and cpu-nb @ 2520mhz.

Also adjusting the amount load settings might help aswell (or manually setting it to high performance/power saving just make sure you have the phenommsrtweaker app running).

My 2cents anywayz