OCCT 3.1.0 shows HD4870/4890 design flaw - they can't handle the new GPU test !

[Greg83]

...

Damage was not caused by Orthos
Damage was caused by overvolting, lack of proper cooling and pebkac

I've run 52 hour prime95 25.6 64bit with my q9650 at 4.42Ghz using 1-32v-1.42v multiple times and its still doing great !

[halo112358]

Damage was not caused by Orthos
Damage was caused by overvolting, lack of proper cooling and pebkac

I've run 52 hour prime95 25.6 64bit with my q9650 at 4.42Ghz using 1-32v-1.42v multiple times and its still doing great !

I'll second that, orthos doesn't kill chips - voltage kills chips.

[Sparky]

Good point but AMD should have put safety as well

Well they do have a safety. Nvidia's is limit fps to keep amps down, ATI's is an OCP. Both protect the card, just different methods

[Bo_Fox]

I wouldn't call it "bad" just something to take note of. I'm thinking of it like the redline of a car's engine, sure you can run up to that, but you can't go over it. Keep it at redline too long you could break it. For whatever reason, OCCT is trying to push it over the redline, and that's a no go.

Doesn't really bother me too much.

If you were an enthusiast, you'd certainly call it a good thing. Install a turbocharger, and you're trying to push it. Install NO2, and you're doing the same. When you race around the track, you're always keeping it at redline. When you go drag-racing, you want to push it as far as you can even at the risk of blowing the engine or tranny.

Guess what? This guy here just gave us a new way of testing engines and trannies to see if they can be pushed without breaking. And we can find out which engines are capable of handling 10000rpm instead, and which ones have a built-in limiter of 8000rpm, so you do not have to waste your time buying the engines and racing them yourselves. All you gotta do is look up the online database, thanks to this program!

That is what being an Xtreme enthusiast is all about, and for that reason, I will not tolerate pansies or threadcrappers here.

Edit: If you guys still want to debate this issue, then it's just the same as saying that LN2 suicide runs are pointless, just like drag-racing is pointless. A mod would probably ban a troller if he didnt stop voicing out against the purpose of enthusiast thrill.

[Macadamia]

Good point but AMD should have put safety as well

When they capped furmark, look what shill nVidia sites like Expreview wrote.

[BababooeyHTJ]

Damage was not caused by Orthos
Damage was caused by overvolting, lack of proper cooling and pebkac

I've run 52 hour prime95 25.6 64bit with my q9650 at 4.42Ghz using 1-32v-1.42v multiple times and its still doing great !

Agreed, I ran my Wolfdale C0 steping at 70c+ in IBT for some pretty long runs(hours) and hours of prime at 1.37v under load (more when I picked up a TRUE) and never had a hint of voltage degredation. My q9650 has seen the same sort of abuse and again not a hint of voltage degredation. Whenever I hear stuff like that I think of BenchZowner's VTT thread.

Guys were talking about a chip with 800 shader cores and it's performance (4870) isn't too far off and in some cases better than a GTX280 in games. I'm not surprised that it stresses a 4870/4890 more and gets such a higher framerate. I doubt that Nvidia is limiting framerates in this benchmark. Trust me it stresses my card hard.

[Sparky]

If you were an enthusiast, you'd certainly call it a good thing. Install a turbocharger, and you're trying to push it. Install NO2, and you're doing the same. When you race around the track, you're always keeping it at redline. When you go drag-racing, you want to push it as far as you can even at the risk of blowing the engine or tranny.

Guess what? This guy here just gave us a new way of testing engines and trannies to see if they can be pushed without breaking. And we can find out which engines are capable of handling 10000rpm instead, and which ones have a built-in limiter of 8000rpm, so you do not have to waste your time buying the engines and racing them yourselves. All you gotta do is look up the online database, thanks to this program!

That is what being an Xtreme enthusiast is all about, and for that reason, I will not tolerate pansies or threadcrappers here.

Edit: If you guys still want to debate this issue, then it's just the same as saying that LN2 suicide runs are pointless, just like drag-racing is pointless. A mod would probably ban a troller if he didnt stop voicing out against the purpose of enthusiast thrill.

Chill

Your comparison isn't quite valid. When you install a turbo, or NO2, etc, you don't do it on a bone stock bottom end. You have to upgrade the bottom end to handle the increased output.

And I am hardly trolling. Seriously dude, just because someone doesn't meet your definition of "enthusiast" doesn't mean they are threadcrapping or trolling or anything like that.

[Bo_Fox]

Chill

Your comparison isn't quite valid. When you install a turbo, or NO2, etc, you don't do it on a bone stock bottom end. You have to upgrade the bottom end to handle the increased output.

And I am hardly trolling. Seriously dude, just because someone doesn't meet your definition of "enthusiast" doesn't mean they are threadcrapping or trolling or anything like that.

LOL, all right.. but I think mine was more valid than yours.

[G0ldBr1ck]

LOL @ more car analogies. They never end.

I have never seen where ATI has boasted or made claims as to there abilities of running stress tests, they made no such promises to anyone. The only claims I have seen are what the cards will do with games and so far they live up to it.
Dont get me wrong, I look at this as a problem now myself. I just dont feel that ATI has failed to deliver on what they sold me.

Oh, and BTW Sparky. Been running a 150hp shot on bone stock bottom end on 88 mustang for years now

[Bo_Fox]

Oh, and BTW Sparky. Been running a 150hp shot on bone stock bottom end on 88 mustang for years now

Ahh, made mine sound better, thank you Goldie! By the way, it's dirt-cheap to replace the exhaust.

[initialised]

I'll second that, orthos doesn't kill chips - voltage kills chips.

Let me correct you there, voltage doesn't kill chips, current kills chips through electro-migration.

If you run silicon cool enough you can pile on the voltage until you start getting too much leakage through the gate oxide for stable operation. Because the resistance is proportional to temperature, current is lower and the rate of electro-migration is reduced.

Even if you have an ATi GPU that can pass this test you may be drastically reducing it's lifespan by running it. It is possible that the non-reference cards that pass also contain higher binned GPUs which have a higher current threshold or have the limiting mechanism disabled. Maybe someone with a 25x16 or 2160p screen could find the limit if it's there.

I've tested the OCCT GPU stress test and agree that the R770 is limited to ~80A as indicated by the upper limit in GPU-Z. With my clocks (775/1100) the test will not run at 1280x1024 on complexity 3, I get a grey screen with a white square where the mouse was left (CCC 9.4).

I am going to stick with furmark as my GPU stress test for two reasons. One is that this test causes an over-current condition that is potentially damaging to the GPU the second is that given the difference in FPS at the same settings on different architechtures with otherwise equivalent performance it is not a fair test as it clearly stresses ATi GPUs far more than nVidia GPUs. However, it may also mean that the quotes FLOPs performance figures are not achievable due to this apparent limitation. I also don't like that crossfire does not kick in it windowed mode and that windowed mode is limited to 1280x1024.

That's not to say it is not a worthwhile finding as it may explain why an overclocked ATi GPU is stable in some games bust crashes in others and armed with this knowledge ATi may be able to introduce, through driver updates, an over-current mechanism that does not require a reboot.

[Sparky]

Oh, and BTW Sparky. Been running a 150hp shot on bone stock bottom end on 88 mustang for years now

<mutter mutter>

All right but you get my drift!

[[XC] Lead Head]

You have to remember the OP has said multiple times that this program stresses different GPUs differently with the same settings. IE. Setting 3 may be the hardest on ATIs, while nVidias might get loaded down the most with Setting 5

[G0ldBr1ck]

Id realy like to hear what AMD has to say about this, they have been asked many times and even banned my account when I asked in there public forums! If there was nothing to it, they wouldnt try to hide it so hard. Come on AMD, I dont think I was screwed on my cards but I would like to know what is going on and why!!!!

[vinister]

I run 3 3870's and all 3 pass this test, as well as the 3 together in crossfire. Temps get high! Up to 55C with EK full cover blocks. they NEVER break 40C while gaming. The VRM's get crazy hot, I measured 90C using an IR gun.

I don't know if that matters to anyone but thought it was worth a mention. I use OCCT alot for benching. The gpu test and the power supply test are my favorites, the power supply test in particular really pushes your entire system to its limits.

[Nightstar]

In an attempt to contribute something more than speculation and admonishment to this thread I thought I'd try to dig up some OCP mods for the 4870/4890 in case some brave soul wanted to test the 82A theory.

The problem therin is that XS is usually my first choice for Vmod info and since largon, initialised and other worthies have posted here and haven't linked to the relevent guide... but WTF eh? Search is said to be my friend.

Well, I searched and wouldnt you know I ended up back here at XS in the Xtreme Graphx Vmods forum, but no love on the OCP fix.

Although I failed in my quest it seems others are looking for this as well.

Hello,
can anyone please help me with the OCP and OVP Mod for my Powercolor 4870 pcs+ rev2.

I flasht the card to 950Mhz Core and take 1420mV for a short Test with LN2. It´s work wonderful since the firts moment. But when i turned up to 1460mV the System crashed under load and the output Voltage goes down to ca. 200mV.

hmmm this sounds familiar(same thread).

Could that be what causes my problem which is as followed:

My Powercolor 4870 is under water with the new EK FC block. Before vGPU mod I ran it at 850/1000.

Today I did the vGPU mod, and where ATI Tool would artifact above 850 before, I was now able to run ATI tool artifact free at 940MHz. (See picture).

My problem is, that eventhough ATI tool runs flawless, no game will run for more than a few secounds. Everything above aprox 1.37v will make the screen go black or the displaydriver to stop working.

It dosent matter if I only uses the same 850mhz as I did before the mod.

Lowering mem speed dosent do anything for me either..

There were many other similar posts.

It would seem that this problem may well manifest itself in games on overvolted/overclocked cards. Not merely while testing OCCT.

[P4rD0nM3]

Hey, I downloaded the OCCT 3.1.0 app and ran the GPU test on my HIS 4870 1GB (the one with the reference cooler). Is it supposed to black as soon as possible? Mine didn't crash. Oh and I know you said that it has nothing to do with heat but I do have a Thermalright HR-03 GT on it w/ a Noctua fan.

[Tetedeiench]

Hey, I downloaded the OCCT 3.1.0 app and ran the GPU test on my HIS 4870 1GB (the one with the reference cooler). Is it supposed to black as soon as possible? Mine didn't crash. Oh and I know you said that it has nothing to do with heat but I do have a Thermalright HR-03 GT on it w/ a Noctua fan.

It does. Check if your PCB is the reference one (it does not have to do with temperature, but with VRM). Check also if you forced V-sync in the driver, or Antialiasing, or Anistropic, or anything like that.

Also make sure you followed the configuration stated in the first post (shader complexity 3, fullscreen, high resolution, no error check).

[Tetedeiench]

OK guys, some news, as we had alot happening yesterday :

Two french websites had the problem happening in their testing labs. One of them has a huge reputation, and cannot be questioned about it. He actually came to the same conclusions as i did : we did hit a limit in the design of the boards. Phew, i'm not a complete moron

He tried a non-reference design board : passed. Reference board : doesn't pass. He reproduced my test : very same conclusion. My test is not at stake, the cards are. Truly, he IS trustable. I'd say he is a demi-god of hardware in France. He is from x86-secret and memtest86.org . Just so you know who he is.

Here is the link to the first news :
http://www.canardpc.com/news-36049-g...et_4890__.html

His conclusion is interesting. If i translate it quickly (i'll let you use google to get an idea) : he says that it is unacceptable that a card cannot handle any code that can be produced with an API it is supposed to support (OCCT fits into that category, as it is pure DirectX9). AMD's answer, according to him, is almost already known : limit OCCT's execution speed, just as furmark. But is this acceptable ?

The interesting part is this : according to him, this defect is sure to have been detected in AMD's quality check process, but have been ignored on purpose. And he goes on by saying that the OCP mecanism is badly implemented, and that this is a true problem on those cards... unless the VRMs aren't at stake here, which is his supposition in the news, but the OCP protection mecanism (which i tend to believe myself).

And the 2nd one, which was reproduced in Yahoo News :
http://www.pcinpact.com/actu/news_multi/51011.htm

I'm actually waiting for AMD's official response now. I'm truly wondering what's going on.

I had an PM on my board waiting for me from AMD, asking me for contact information. I answered yesterday, still waiting for input from them. I'll keep you guys updated.

I can say that right now, we're going out of the "hypothesis" to the "there's a problem for sure", we just don't know if the problem is the VRM themselves, or the OCP, but we do know that the problem are the cards, that the problem occur :

• With OCCT GPU at stock speed
• With Furmark with a slight bump in vGPU/Frequencies (as it is a tad less efficient than OCCT)

And we're starting to get professionnal view on that.

OK, the sources are unknown for you, it's non anandtech, xbitlabs, or alike...

We're starting to get alot of cards touched, alot of testing done, and some professionnal reviews that prove our testing.

I updated the first post to include the first "professionnal" review we had. I'm sure people will question them because they don't know them. Well, i can't do a thing about that

[kiwi]

I hope they are completely independent. Otherwise AMD will just tell them to shut up We have already seen their attitude in forums. Sorry, but this time AMD you have failed.

[Mechromancer]

OCCT 3.1.0 fails on my reference Diamond 4870 that I bought one month after they were released. I just ran Furmark after changing the furmark.exe filename (to disable any driver tweaks) and it ran perfectly fine. I also run games going back the last 11 years! I've had no problems with any software I've run on my GPU, except OCCT. I'm not saying OCCT is flawed, I'm just saying there haven't been any issues on my end while overclocked. Extreme overclocking is where folks will be having their problems so that doesn't apply to me (yet). The next time I buy an ATI GPU, I'll just be sure to get a non-reference design though.

Any idea which manufacturers make the strongest, most robust non-ref boards so far? How about you make a list of the ones that work the best and overclock the highest while remaining stable?

[informal]

Until we have a real world code(be it GPGPU related or game related) that fails on reference Radeon cards my opinion will be that this test is unrealistic and borderline power virus.There is not one real world workload that can cause the same effect on reference Radeon HD4xxx.

One more thing:whoever runs this test on their systems with Radeon HD4xxx risks either immediate or long term damage to their previously working Radeon cards.The VRM of reference cards is pushed beyond its specifications so no wonder the test fails(and the card could ultimately fail too).

[Tetedeiench]

We're not saying "this will happen in every game". We're saying "the design is flawed". We're saying "there's a possibility this will happen in another program". Why is that ? Because it happened in a legitimate program (OCCT is just a a DirectX9 scene, i remind you), so it can happen again.

When the pentium bug appeared for Intel (remember : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentium_FDIV_bug ), it appeared very rarely, and in very specific applications, and in none that were available publicly. Yet Intel did recall the CPUs Am i saying we do have the exact same thing ? No, the P4 bug wasn't stress related. Was the problem described by the one who discovered the Pentium bug a power virus ? No, of course not. Am i saying AMD should do the very same thing, a huge recall ? That's up to them, i am not knowlegdeable enough to be able to know if they should, or not. I'd say no, personally.

I am not fiddling with frequencies, timings, or anything of the sort. I'm linking with DirectX9 libraries, happily loading a donut mesh, applying the shaders, and seeing the results.

So no, OCCT is not a power virus of any sort. You choose to install it, you choose the settings, you choose when you start it, you stop it, and how to configure it. So no, it is not a power virus. A stressfull stability test, yes, indeed. But a power virus ? No. Let's stop this 18-page old assertion that's adding nothing to the current problem please.

I do wonder how come a legitimate DirectX9 scene could push a VRM beyond its specifications on a card, at stock frequencies. They should have been stronger, more robust, don't you think ? They should be able to handle everything. They are supposed be compatible with DirectX... Yet, here's a completly valid DirectX app they can't handle... Interesting, isn't it ?

[Nullack]

Instead of posting the whole code, would you consider some psuedocode of the alrogirthm used in the stress test?

[Tetedeiench]

Instead of posting the whole code, would you consider some psuedocode of the alrogirthm used in the stress test?

What would be the point ?

So that people would copy my test ?

No sorry, i'd prefer not to.